vinccolby
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 6
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Post by vinccolby on Aug 22, 2009 0:01:35 GMT -5
Hi everyone! There's something I really can't get off my mind so I decided to ask this question here : Are humans being brainwhashed or under some kind of spell? I just don't understand why they are ok with vampires and not vampire slayers. With what I've read so far they seem to know that vampires kill humans. Of course I could have overlooked something. ps : is the angel comic any good? I'm watching the series right now to be able to read them and wanted to know how good is the series? ( after the fall and the ongoing series) Thanks a lot!
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Post by butters on Aug 22, 2009 0:15:40 GMT -5
We dont know the full story yet but were thinking magic is envolved.
And Angel after the fall is great, after that im not hearing anuthing good till issue 23.
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Post by Rebecca on Aug 31, 2009 17:57:10 GMT -5
Are humans being brainwhashed or under some kind of spell? I just don't understand why they are ok with vampires and not vampire slayers. With what I've read so far they seem to know that vampires kill humans. Of course I could have overlooked something. I think it's a social commentary of sorts; that people in society are more willing to accept an implausible false than the hard truth. In this case, it's easier to believe the lie that everything will be fine, that the demons and vampires don't want to hurt society but protect it rather than accepting the truth that in actuality, they are pawns in an elaborate--and evil!--scheme to take over the planet for the forces of evil; that their coersion and placidity in effect allows this scheme for evil to succeed. Accepting the truth would force them to fight evil--and look at how easy that is for Buffy et al. Those spreading the perverse version of the truth will do anything to discredit their rivals. In this case, as outing vampires so outs vampire slayers, naturally one must be painted as "other" "bad" and "anti-society". It's all about controlling the message and making it easy for the masses to go along with your scheme rather than fight you. One thing rather missing from Predators & Prey, when vampires went vogue, was exactly how Twilight dispersed his message. He is in with the Military, perhaps he has friends (read: devoted followers) in high places within media outlets as well.
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vinccolby
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 6
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Post by vinccolby on Aug 31, 2009 18:08:58 GMT -5
Thanks Rebecca and butters for answering!
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 31, 2009 18:33:38 GMT -5
The problem with doing "social commentary" in a story is that you have to make it plausible, or you wind up with a "straw man" argument.
I'm as much of a cynic as anyone when it comes to disgust with human groupthink, using the media as a substitute for critical thinking, etc... yet the "vampires are cool" thing just doesn't ring true to me (and a lot of other people, apparently). People may put too much stock in the media, but they're also pretty paranoid when it comes to "scary aliens living among us and preying on our neighbors and families"... which is what the vampires are *openly* doing (according to Harmony in her Colbert appearance).
So either there's some sort of magical influence involved, or it's a clumsy and not very believable attempt at social commentary.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
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Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Aug 31, 2009 18:44:41 GMT -5
I hope that there is magical influence involved, but then again it work out ok when society was willing to accept vampires in 'True Blood'... but I just can't see it in the 'Buffy world'..
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Post by wenxina on Aug 31, 2009 19:14:51 GMT -5
Do I need to remind people that the Buffyverse is chock full of people who will believe just about anything quasi-plausible? How many times did people pass off vampire attacks as "gangs on PCP" or something equally ludicrous. It may be social commentary, but the gag is not without precedent. Finally believing in vampires is a long time coming, and believing that they're hot and cuddly doesn't stretch too far. I'm sure there are groups of people out there who dislike Harmony as much as I loathe "celebrities" who get famous by handing their sex tapes to their publicists to leak, but I don't give too much thought to it. People probably also just think that the vampire schtick is just a gag anyway.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 31, 2009 19:29:57 GMT -5
In all of Buffyverse history, nothing has ever challenged my suspension of disbelief as much as the "out vampires" storyline. Which is saying a lot for a universe full of vampires, demons, hellgods, teenage girls piloting submarines and Wiccans who hurl spells like World of Warcraft characters.
The Harmony/Colbert story, entertaining though it was, just blew away all my attempts at buying it. There's simply no explanation for humanity's reaction to this situation. People in a fictional setting should still act like people.
(In fact, that webcomic seemed to work so hard specifically to blow away my suspension of disbelief, that I wonder whether it was a deliberate hint that something mystically fishy is going on behind the scenes. Colbert's vague questioning of Harmony's illogical attitudes seemed to me a lot like the words of a hypnotized person who's just starting to get the feeling something isn't right.)
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Post by wenxina on Aug 31, 2009 19:47:21 GMT -5
There's simply no explanation for humanity's reaction to this situation. People in a fictional setting should still act like people. Again... explaining a vampire attack as merely "gangs of PCP". If that didn't make you scratch your head, this really shouldn't be that much of a stretch.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 31, 2009 19:53:51 GMT -5
Do I need to remind people that the Buffyverse is chock full of people who will believe just about anything quasi-plausible? How many times did people pass off vampire attacks as "gangs on PCP" or something equally ludicrous. It may be social commentary, but the gag is not without precedent. Finally believing in vampires is a long time coming, and believing that they're hot and cuddly doesn't stretch too far. I'm sure there are groups of people out there who dislike Harmony as much as I loathe "celebrities" who get famous by handing their sex tapes to their publicists to leak, but I don't give too much thought to it. People probably also just think that the vampire schtick is just a gag anyway. YES. This. I think it's important to note that we really haven't seen the world's reaction. Not completely. We've seen the media, which hello bias? We've seen a crazy town that sacrifices all its children to survive who's being led by a bitter Watcher who wants all Slayers to pay for what he's lost. We've seen the Scoobies say that all humanity is against them. We've seen some extreme reactions against Slayers and certain popularity for Vampires in the people - that's their perception, not the truth of reality. But since when is humanity all for just one thing? Like Xi said, there's going to be people out there who disagree, they're just less visible because they're not...well, batshit crazy and going around hunting down Slayers and "sucking" up to vampires. They're busy taking care of their families and working two jobs in a crappy economy.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Aug 31, 2009 19:57:51 GMT -5
There's simply no explanation for humanity's reaction to this situation. People in a fictional setting should still act like people. Again... explaining a vampire attack as merely "gangs of PCP". If that didn't make you scratch your head, this really shouldn't be that much of a stretch. I think there's a difference between denying something because you don't want to admit it's existence, and consciously embracing something that blatantly makes no sense. I was very open to the vamp vogue storyline at first, and when #21 came out, I defended it against criticism. There's real potential in the concept. But at this point, I'm agreeing with Andrew; it's been handled very clumsily. It's become so false and illogical that I really do hope it's a "Superstar"-style spell so we can just sweep it under the rug and move on. YES. This. I think it's important to note that we really haven't seen the world's reaction. Not completely. We've seen the media, which hello bias? We've seen a crazy town that sacrifices all its children to survive who's being led by a bitter Watcher who wants all Slayers to pay for what he's lost. We've seen the Scoobies say that all humanity is against them. We've seen some extreme reactions against Slayers and certain popularity for Vampires in the people - that's their perception, not the truth of reality. But since when is humanity all for just one thing? Like Xi said, there's going to be people out there who disagree, they're just less visible because they're not...well, batshit crazy and going around hunting down Slayers and "sucking" up to vampires. They're busy taking care of their families and working two jobs in a crappy economy. Except that, 8 issues into this story, and we still haven't seen these people who disagree. We've just seen Slayers running in terror from this supposed world-wide prejudice. If there was more of a balanced reaction, it would make things more believable. It's as if the writers are afraid to point out the holes in logic, because it'll highlight how ludicrous this whole storyline has been. The Colbert story is the only thing giving me hope, because from that, it seems like the pod people thing is intentional, and not just shit writing.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 31, 2009 20:18:49 GMT -5
I'm not denying that the whole arc was handled clumsily. All I'm doing is pointing to a precedent where something nonsensical was just tossed aside almost as an afterthought. Embracing something that blatantly doesn't make sense is rather like denial... instead of thinking about it, you just take the easy way out, and believe what they tell you, if you even care to think about it at all.
Look, I was with you guys with the whole "This doesn't make any sense" argument... until I decided to move the Angel franchise out of the Buffyverse, due to practical issues. There's just no way for me to reconcile the survivors of Hell-A taking up with vampires. But seeing as IDW's Angel is moving away from Dark Horse's S8, I find it a ridiculously tiresome exercise to try and fit the two together anymore. It's the great Buffyverse schism, as Emmie puts it, but it is what it is. Yes, "AtF" is canonical, but it doesn't completely jive with S8, and so as of now, it's on the separate but equal page.
EDIT: We haven't seen these groups of dissenters because they really aren't pivotal to the story. The point is, the majority now believes that Slayers are a fascistic group of superbeings. The operative term here being superbeings... we're not talking Olympic athletes here, but people who are inherently "better" than them. That doesn't sit well. Then there's the fact that Slayers have been described as Nazis. Slayer sympathizers haven't been important, until now. Oz and Bay are very well aware of the current climate, and they've allowed Slayers to take up with them. That would make them Slayer sympathizers. You also have civilian Slayers who oppose the current trend, and are rewarded by the social pariah treatment. The argument that we've not seen more of these dissenters is like asking why we didn't see more parents/concerned citizens that didn't buy the "gas leak" or "PCP" explanations given back then.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Aug 31, 2009 20:33:31 GMT -5
I'm not denying that the whole arc was handled clumsily. All I'm doing is pointing to a precedent where something nonsensical was just tossed aside almost as an afterthought. Embracing something that blatantly doesn't make sense is rather like denial... instead of thinking about it, you just take the easy way out, and believe what they tell you, if you even care to think about it at all. Look, I was with you guys with the whole "This doesn't make any sense" argument... until I decided to move the Angel franchise out of the Buffyverse, due to practical issues. There's just no way for my to reconcile the survivors of Hell-A taking up with vampires. But seeing as IDW's Angel is moving away from Dark Horse's S8, I find it a ridiculously tiresome exercise to try and fit the two together anymore. It's the great Buffyverse schism, as Emmie puts it, but it is what it is. Yes, "AtF" is canonical, but it doesn't completely jive with S8, and so as of now, it's on the separate but equal page. Sunnydale Syndrome was a background plot device. It wasn't entirely believable, but we put up with it because it kept the series' status quo intact. However, this vamp thing is a major storyline and has been pushed center stage, and under such scrutiny it just doesn't work. I actually think After the Fall is great set-up for this story. A vampire hero saves all of Los Angelus from evil demons? They even made a movie about it. Obviously people will start loving vampires. What frustrates me is that AtF hasn't been acknowledged by Season Eight, when Angel should be the poster child for this story. EDIT: We haven't seen these groups of dissenters because they really aren't pivotal to the story. The point is, the majority now believes that Slayers are a fascistic group of superbeings. The operative term here being superbeings... we're not talking Olympic athletes here, but people who are inherently "better" than them. That doesn't sit well. Then there's the fact that Slayers have been described as Nazis. Slayer sympathizers haven't been important, until now. Oz and Bay are very well aware of the current climate, and they've allowed Slayers to take up with them. That would make them Slayer sympathizers. You also have civilian Slayers who oppose the current trend, and are rewarded by the social pariah treatment. The argument that we've not seen more of these dissenters is like asking why we didn't see more parents/concerned citizens that didn't buy the "gas leak" or "PCP" explanations given back then. But why is this whole vamps-are-popular thing necessary for Slayers to be discriminated against? A scary master race with super powers is enough to ellicit panic and prejudice, without some silly vampire crazy. The story feels unfocused because I'm not sure which is the main issue: is it that vampires are popular or that Slayers are mistrusted? What point is the series actually trying to make? Over the course of Buffy, we actually saw that a lot of Sunnydale residents were aware of the supernatural to an extent. They were in denial, but they knew something was going on. We haven't seen many people in S8 who are aware that vamps are actually the bad guys. That Slayer in Tales, but that's about it.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 31, 2009 20:40:52 GMT -5
A vampire hero saves all of LA. Some may consider Spike a hero too, especially his flock. But that's it. People know what vampires are like. Gunn killed quite a few innocents himself, and I doubt he was the only vampire making kills. That itself would mean that "AtF" is NOT a great set-up for this storyline.
The Sunnydale Syndrome was a background plot device. But so is the current situation. The focus is on Twilight and his goons against Slayers. The anti-Slayer sentiment sets the tone, much like denial set the tone for Sunnydale.
I seriously doubt if S8 will acknowledge the "AtF" storyline. There's no reason to. Aside from the deliberate crossovers, both TV shows maintained a very separate air about them.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 31, 2009 20:51:06 GMT -5
YES. This. I think it's important to note that we really haven't seen the world's reaction. Not completely. We've seen the media, which hello bias? We've seen a crazy town that sacrifices all its children to survive who's being led by a bitter Watcher who wants all Slayers to pay for what he's lost. We've seen the Scoobies say that all humanity is against them. We've seen some extreme reactions against Slayers and certain popularity for Vampires in the people - that's their perception, not the truth of reality. But since when is humanity all for just one thing? Like Xi said, there's going to be people out there who disagree, they're just less visible because they're not...well, batshit crazy and going around hunting down Slayers and "sucking" up to vampires. They're busy taking care of their families and working two jobs in a crappy economy. Except that, 8 issues into this story, and we still haven't seen these people who disagree. We've just seen Slayers running in terror from this supposed world-wide prejudice. If there was more of a balanced reaction, it would make things more believable. It's as if the writers are afraid to point out the holes in logic, because it'll highlight how ludicrous this whole storyline has been. The Colbert story is the only thing giving me hope, because from that, it seems like the pod people thing is intentional, and not just shit writing. I didn't say the execution was done well. Just that a lot of the time, the TV show expects you to just accept the situation. Everyone choosing to disbelieve in vampires is one of them despite evidence to the contrary. This goes to the theme of "subjectivity of reality" that I've been touting since LWH. Reality is what we choose to believe, not what is real. I rather think the point is that we're only witnessing the extreme reactions because this puts the Slayers in a panic. Oh my god, no one likes us! We're screwed! This then forces them to extreme measures. Paranoia breeds paranoia. I'm waiting for the twists and the end of the season before I call it "shit writing". For all we know, Joss is messing with our own "subjectivity of reality" just like he did in Enemies. In the end, perhaps Buffy and the Slayers will have humanity back on their side once the solid and sane "middle class" rises up to overthrow the extreme human hysterics and slays the vampires with the Slayers. That'd be the next best thing in the natural progression for me. First Buffy shares the Slayer power with all the Potentials, then she gives humanity back the right to fight for themselves. Would the demon world stand a chance if all ~7 billion humans decided to exterminate them? But then, this move too has it's own complicated repercussions.
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Post by Rebecca on Aug 31, 2009 20:52:54 GMT -5
Thanks Xi.
People in general are way more likely to accept something that is repeatedly espoused to them and corroborated through social interaction than use their own heads and make an independent judgment. Dissent takes effort, it's way more easier to go with the herd like sheeple.
As for dissenters being present within the comics, I rather saw Colbert's addition as dissent. Colbert IRL is a satire of conservative talk shows. His position in the comic (pro-vampire) is in itself a dissent to that position, just because it was Colbert.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 31, 2009 21:09:00 GMT -5
Sorry, still not buying it. I'm not saying this is ruining season 8 for me... but I think that (unless it's explained magically), it's just a poor bit of plotting.
"Sunnydale Syndrome" could be hand-waved away by the fact that all that stuff was taking place more or less discreetly, in the shadows after dark. It was still hard to swallow, but okay once you made the decision to just go with it.
Here, however, we have a worldwide population being explicitly told that vampires DO exist. They're not a motorcycle gang on PCP... they are unapologetically EVIL demons, and they kill and drain people as part of their inherent nature. And the people not only accept these creatures... they welcome them with open arms, and they condemn the people trying to protect them against this threat.
That's well beyond denial or apathy or even groupthink. It's mass insanity.
But as I said, the Harmony webcomic seems to be a hint that the writers know things don't add up... and they're not supposed to.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 31, 2009 21:14:53 GMT -5
Andrew, if it is a misperception based on the limited POV of the story, then I fail to see how you can not buy it yet if there's a twist coming. Or were you not talking to me?
I do think there's some poor execution going on here, but I've yet to call this plot line irredeemable imo.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 31, 2009 21:16:44 GMT -5
But why is this whole vamps-are-popular thing necessary for Slayers to be discriminated against? A scary master race with super powers is enough to ellicit panic and prejudice, without some silly vampire crazy. The story feels unfocused because I'm not sure which is the main issue: is it that vampires are popular or that Slayers are mistrusted? What point is the series actually trying to make? It isn't, but here's the thing. Without Harmony pointing a finger at the Slayers and saying "Look, modern Nazis", humanity at large would have been none the wiser. So while the Slayer mistrust doesn't necessarily need the "vampires=good" slant, the awareness of the existence of Slayers did. It may not have been the only way, but it's the fastest, and quite frankly, reading all the comments whining about why it's taking forever to get to the climax of the story, I doubt Buffy fans (note, making the distinction between people who got into comics because of S8 and the people who are familiar with serialized story-telling in the mode of comics) would care for some long-winded way that people become aware of Slayers and their superpowers. And again, there may be some way of reaching that quickly, but in a different way, but that's really a moot point since the same can be said for just about any plot development. You're not alone in feeling that S8 lost focus for a bit, in the "P&P" arc. Joss himself has said that S8 did lose some tightness for a bit, which I take to be in reference to the "P&P" arc. I, personally feel that "P&P" was clumsily executed. But I'm not tearing my hair out at a convenient plot device that is precedented in the show. Over the course of Buffy, we actually saw that a lot of Sunnydale residents were aware of the supernatural to an extent. They were in denial, but they knew something was going on. We haven't seen many people in S8 who are aware that vamps are actually the bad guys. That Slayer in Tales, but that's about it. Over the course of the TV show, yes, there were inklings. But it kinda took up to the end of S3 for the entire student body to be like "Okay, we know that there are weird things going on here". But again, what good does it serve the plot to detour into a subplot where you have a minority go all pro-Slayer at this point? Unless the minority has a part to play. Cue Oz and Bay. Cue Alex, the civilian Slayer. Alex got chomped. Oz is about to get his home blown up, from what we got in the solicitation. The random emo kid who feels the pain of the Slayers and composes haiku to express his support is probably being ridiculed at high school. The rest of the "normal" people... well, they're doing what normal people do and just get by in life. They're acting like... well, people. And isn't that the crux of the entire "I can't believe people are okay with vampires!" argument? That people should be outraged? Or at least more of them should be? More people are apathetic than anything else. I think that Tyra Banks is batshit, but yet I quote her, and I watch her product. I jeer at the inane drama, and yet, after a long day at work, the CW's lousy teen programming is what I watch when I'm in my pajamas with my Ramen.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 31, 2009 21:40:27 GMT -5
Andrew, if it is a misperception based on the limited POV of the story, then I fail to see how you can not buy it yet if there's a twist coming. Or were you not talking to me? I do think there's some poor execution going on here, but I've yet to call this plot line irredeemable imo. I wasn't talking specifically to you... but I agree that there is a twist coming. I fully expect a mystical explanation is coming up. If there is no twist, THEN I will say that it's just bad writing. Even in the Buffyverse, the human race is not 100% idiotic. But with Joss and the Mutant Enemy gang, my first assumption is non-crappy writing. I'm waiting with interest to see how it pans out. (I would ask Scott another question about this this week, but I know he wouldn't answer.)
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