|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 11, 2010 10:50:16 GMT -5
I'll have to go back and watch that scene again. It looked to me as if William recognized Drusilla and knew she was a vampire. They were already acquainted somehow ... or do I misread it? It's as if they'd talked about it, "Would you like to be a vampire?" "Let me think about it," "Now I see Cecily will never have me, why not?" Ahh, but Darla had actually died and then was recently resurrected, and we know that it is something that screws one up really badly. In addition to this she was suffering from an immense guilt attack due to having regained her Soul via the aforementioned resurrection. I would also guess that suddenly finding herself in LA in the hands of a demonic law firm and being forced to re-live her past actions with Angel (who she was obsessed with) would have a dramatic affect on her mentality. Let me see if I understand you. She was overwhelmed with guilt about what she'd done as a vampire, but she was also desperate to be a vampire again? Did she feel guilty at all? I don't remember her expressing that feeling. OK, so she wanted to be a vampire again, but maybe she had misgivings about it, she wanted to sabotage herself by being a weak vampire? I guess that's possible, but it doesn't seem likely to me.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 11, 2010 9:55:32 GMT -5
These are thorny issues, aren't they?
We've gotten down to it. If a person has social support in doing what he does, that makes a difference in how we judge his actions, no matter how evil they may seem.
Did Nolan Kinnard have social support? Yes he did, at least from the people at the Dollhouse with whom he dealt. We actually hear from some Dollhouse people who argue for the inevitability, if not the justice exactly, of what they are doing. I suspect he had other associates who also had no problem with what he was doing. Maybe these were the people who were most important to him.
You mentioned murder? Excusing murderers? There do exist organizations in this world, some in this country, that admit only men who have committed murder. Are these immoral organizations? I hesitate to say so. There are men who are passionately devoted to these organizations, ready to die as well as kill to preserve them. It's hard not to have a bit of respect for this, mixed in with the horror. I've been a soldier, have you? I understand how a soldier can both hate and admire his enemy. In the same way, a policeman can admire a criminal (in exceptional cases).
Here's a less emotional, but interesting case. Suppose you find out that a friend of yours is having an affair with a woman who is not his wife. Does he have social support for this? Yes, from at least one person, a person who may matter to him a lot. How do you feel about the morality of that? Most of us would frown on it, but, well ... A few years back, I learned that a neighbor of mine was in exactly that position. He admitted it in public. He happens to be very well known in my town, so essentially everyone around here (population about 100,000) knew about it. Of course we all disapproved. Then we elected him judge.
Frankly, I'm inclined to think that the notion of a person being evil is not really intelligible, a name that refers to nothing. No doubt that will shock some of you.
Maybe we're not getting anywhere.
About the First, I'll keep in mind what you say, I just finished "Conversations With Dead People," so far I don't see evidence, but I'll be on the lookout for it. I'm still not sure how the First could become corporeal. What would it look like, if it did?
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 20:15:50 GMT -5
Why did Drusilla sire Spike? Curious, I never thought about that before. Now that I do think of it ... "because of how pathetic he was" has at least some truth in it, I suppose she wanted a partner who would be devoted to her and follow her lead, a man with a weakness for her, but who would appear strong to the rest of the world. If that was her idea, she did pretty well for herself.
Here's another take, though. She may have liked that sentimental, arty side of him. She figured he could, and would, watch clouds and stars with her.
Before I end ... a word about Darla's choice for a sire. I can't picture she was desperate to get sired. Surely she didn't face a tighter deadline that Billy Fordham did, but Ford went about it in a deliberate, careful way. If Darla had been deliberate and careful, I'm sure she could've found an alpha vampire. She had Lindsay to help her, right?
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 19:19:33 GMT -5
I'm rewatching S7 now, I'll be on the lookout for that. I want to be clear on what the context is. Somehow I can't picture the First Evil ever being corporeal.
Have to add something about Nolan Kinnard. Don't get me wrong! I absolutely condemn what he did, which was unequivocally wrong!
But I just can't think of him as a particularly evil person. If he is, then there are a lot of evil people out there. It makes more sense to me to think of the evil as being located in the system and the situation, not the individual.
I wonder, what do you think about the class of people who own slaves? There is such a class, you know, right now, but you can think of the past if you like. What do you think of Jefferson Davis, for instance, or even Thomas Jefferson, as individuals? Were they villains?
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 15:06:11 GMT -5
Somebody said The First wanted to become corporeal and rule the world. Hmm ... I don' t remember that. As I recall, it just wanted to end the Slayer line. Did I miss something? Educate me if I did, please.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 14:32:49 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll get one!
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 13:50:08 GMT -5
"Tempted Champions" is a trade paperback, written by Yvonne Navarro. I haven't read all the "Tales of the Slayers" so I don't know whether there is a story like that in there or not. Oh, wait a minute, you probably mean the comics. There is an old comic story where Buffy meets a Slayer-vamp, about three hundred years old, who was turned by the Master and still served him. Buffy dusted her, of course.
In the comic story, the Slayer-vamp seemed to be just an ordinary vampire with an unusual background. In "Tempted Champions," she seems to have the powers of a slayer, which of course are greater than those of vampires, but no more. She also seemed intent on killing both humans and vampires. She must've been very lonely.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 10:28:33 GMT -5
If it's common, then it's hard to think of it as a personal failing.
We know that in the days of slavery, many slave-owners made mistresses of their female slaves. This was frowned on in public, as I gather from reading history, but what was the attitude in private? I suspect many people, even women, shrugged their shoulders, "boys will be boys" and so on.
Don't forget, slavery is still with us. I spent nine months in Thailand when I was in the Army. I heard about slave auctions in the countryside. I also saw things go on in the brothels, where the girls were not slaves as we usually think of it, that were as bad or worse than what happened to Sierra.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 10:26:46 GMT -5
In "Tempted Champions," we have a Slayer who actually chooses to become a vampire.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 10:23:22 GMT -5
Of the descendants of the Master we see, Drusilla seems to be the only one who can kill by mesmerizing a victim cobra-like. Merely being a descendant of the Master doesn't seem to help with that. Or did I forget something?
The writers seem to avoid or at least neglect this subject. To settle it, we would need a discussion from Wesley or Giles or somebody, which might be part of Slayer training. But we don't get that.
There seems to be no reason to answer this question, unless it serves to build a good story. Off hand, I can't think of a story line where it would matter. That's one of the things we can do in fanfic.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 10, 2010 10:20:39 GMT -5
Let me see. I think what Buffy dived into was a "rift in reality" where all the dimensions mixed. I suppose she could've vanished and wound up in any dimension, but her body, of course, remained in this one, and it was dead.
I always assumed it was just an ordinary death where the "soul" if there is one is separated from the body and goes, well, wherever souls go. Ordinary death by mystical forces, that means. All kinds of forces can cause death.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 9, 2010 20:50:29 GMT -5
We're talking about physical strength, right?
Are we assuming that male vampires are stronger than female ones? I don't know that we see any clear evidence on that. All vampires are much stronger than humans, so we can't reason from our experience as humans.
Some vampires seem able to hypnotize people, as the Master did with Buffy, or Drusilla did with Kendra. Can all vampires do that?
What about Dracula? He seems to have powers other vampires don't. How did he get them?
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 9, 2010 12:53:50 GMT -5
Remember when Darla, as a human, was looking for a vampire to sire her? I can't remember which episode, but she went to a demon bar, found a random (rather young) vampire who apparently had never turned a human before and actually explained the details. She apparently wasn't picky at all about who sired her. If having a more powerful sire made her a more powerful vampire, wouldn't she have looked for a thoroughbred?
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 9, 2010 10:59:23 GMT -5
Just finished "Apocalypse Nowish." Very good, but not one of my top Angel eps. We do learn a lot about Connor and his relationship with Cordelia. I like seeing Gunn be the one to solve the mystery. I know Gunn has this inferiority complex about his intelligence compared to Fred or Wesley, but he's by no means stupid, and pretty quick on the uptake. The worst part of this one: The Beast, obviously a man in a monster suit, one of the tackiest bad guys in the verse.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 9, 2010 10:54:41 GMT -5
Nolan Kinnard? I have a suggestion to make about him that may disturb you guys.
His behavior, accomplished through old-fashioned violence, would've been accepted as normal not so long ago, so long as the victim belonged to some class of people recognized as inferior. This kind of thinking is not extinct even now, not by a long shot.
Do you remember what Albert Camus said in "The Plague," "a man needs slaves like he needs fresh air"? I suppose he was using the masculine to include the feminine, implying that women were no different. I'd like to think that women are different and better, but we don't really know for sure, do we? Women, again even now, are less likely to have power to abuse. Maybe they would be just as tyrannical as men are, if they had the same chances.
Nolan Kinnard, as I read it, was offended that a woman he regarded as his inferior had the effrontery to reject him. I could be wrong, but I assume there exist other women whom he would recognize as of his own kind, from whom a rejection would've been more acceptable.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 9, 2010 10:40:20 GMT -5
It sounds like what you guys need, both at daycare and at Walmart, is a union.
Suppose your boss wanted to discipline or fire you, and there was actually somebody you could go to, who was interested in protecting your interest, and had enough power to make the boss at least explain and justify what he's doing, according to some rules and principles accepted in advance. Doesn't that sound good?
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 9, 2010 9:42:48 GMT -5
I have to stick with the old name, I'm present other places, don't want to confuse people. I do use another name on the Buffy wiki, that was a mistake, I should've been consistent. Oh, I do need to get a picture and banner somehow, I need a good picture of Holden Webster since I claimed him.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 7, 2010 21:41:50 GMT -5
I just finished Conversations With Dead People, one of my all time favorites. There were so many things in it to love. The Buffy character, in her conversation with Holden Webster, came through as nowhere else. Buffy is so natural and human and humanly lovable, the fact that she looks like SMG and too beautiful to be real doesn't even matter. That's when my love for Buffy reaches its highest pitch. But that's not all. We learn so much about The First that otherwise we'd have to guess, or fail to guess. Can't get over it. I may have to watch it again before I go on.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 7, 2010 21:34:43 GMT -5
Each season had to top the last, right? The villain had to be bigger, the crisis more painful, so that the triumph could be more exhilarating. It had to get darker. As long as it remained believable and meaningful, darker was better. I feel it remained believable and meaningful to the end. I guess there are some of us who felt that, at some point, it became too dark to be taken seriously.
|
|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Dec 7, 2010 21:31:09 GMT -5
Caleb and The First.
Funny, when I was thinking of the most evil villains, I didn't think of Caleb. I guess it's because, as a couple people have said, he doesn't seem quite real. His hatred of women is so extreme, it's more than a mystery, it's like an imposture. Nathan Fillian did a good job with that role. I believed Caleb when he was on the screen, but thinking back on him, I just couldn't hold him in my mind.
The First I always figured as more a principle or drive or tendency, something simple, not a complete personality but one of the elements from which a personality might be made. I understood "First/Buffy" for instance as an image of Buffy but with the evil part brought out into relief. I hope that makes sense. I think there was a "First/Mayor" who said something about that, I haven't gotten to that episode yet.
I just watched "Conversations With Dead People," I think I may watch it again. That's where we get the most clues as to what The First is about. Notice The First always tells people "you can't make a difference, you can't even control yourself, nobody cares about you, just give up and die." The First is the voice that says those things. Remember "First/Joyce" told Dawn, "Buffy won't choose you."
|
|