Faith5byFive
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FaithLehane & Angel(us)[Mo0:2]
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Post by Faith5byFive on Jan 6, 2010 8:49:23 GMT -5
 <--- Angel Haha sorry i just love these emoticons 
anyway back to my topic.Angels Curse/SoulSo Angels got cursed by gypsies which gave him back his soul etc.. etc... and if he gets even just 1 momment of hapiness he will turn back into Angelus. So i thought why didn't he do what Spike did and fight for his soul then that way he would have a soul and wouldn't loose it so then he could be with Buffy just a point to think about i suppose the only counter to it i can think of is he already has a soul so he would have to loose it thus becoming Angelus and not wanting to get a soul again?
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hellmouth
Common Vampire
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Post by hellmouth on Jan 6, 2010 13:57:11 GMT -5
I think you somewhat answered your own question... I think if Angel had lost his soul and become Angelus then he wouldn't have the desire to fight for his soul. However, that begs the question, if Angel (a demon) was in love with Buffy, would losing his soul remove that love? Spike (a demon w/o a soul) fell in love with Buffy so it must be possible.
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Faith5byFive
Psychic Link to the PTB
Five By Five![/b]
FaithLehane & Angel(us)[Mo0:2]
Posts: 831
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Post by Faith5byFive on Jan 6, 2010 15:48:04 GMT -5
Yeah thats what i thought nice banner btw
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Jan 6, 2010 17:23:18 GMT -5
Angelus had no reason to want his soul back and every reason to not want it back.
He was 100% evil, which Spike wasn't.
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Randi Giles
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I Want to Believe
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Post by Randi Giles on Jan 6, 2010 17:39:54 GMT -5
^^I have to agree. If Angel lost his soul and became Angelus I don't really think he would have had any desire to get his soul back. Especially since he seemed pretty disgusted with Angel in Orpheus.
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CourtneyDax
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May 7, 2002
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Post by CourtneyDax on Jan 7, 2010 3:22:57 GMT -5
Yeah, they really pointed those facts/contrasts between Spike and Angel out in that Angel episode in season 5 where they fight it out. Spike was never completely evil, he still had a heart. From the very beginning, Spike was still caring about other people. He wanted to save his mum from death, and he did everything he could to try to get Drusilla back. It's just that Spike is just that close to being twisted, but you can almost see his good intentions with some of his actions.
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leyki
Common Vampire
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Post by leyki on Jul 17, 2010 4:33:48 GMT -5
I really hate it when people seem to separate Angel from Angelus.
He is the same demon, the only difference is that Angel is a demon with a soul, and Angelus is the soulless same demon.
This is why, he was cursed....to carry the burden of a soul, to feel guilty about what he has done, about what kind of "person" he was.
Angel with a soul is not Liam, Liam is all gone, died when he was bitten.
Spike with a soul is not William, he is just a demon who has a soul.
If Spike loses his soul, he will not become like Angelus, i think he will be something like Spike in 6th season, sb who was in a grey area, between good and bad, doing whatever to survive, but not in the cruelest way, like he used to. He has evolved
If Angel loses he soul, he becomes the well-known Angelus.
Angelus has never evolved, and he is not willing to, that's why he would never seek for his soul, intentionally, like Spike did.
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jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Jul 22, 2010 19:29:01 GMT -5
I always call it 'the curse that makes no sense' because to me it really doesn't on so many levels. I always thought they didn't think this one through at all.
The basic motivation behind it is all that makes sense. Give a vampire a soul so the demon is supressed and can't continue to kill. It's the worst kind of punishment for the demon.
And personally it makes the Gypsies appear kind of evil and absolutely dumb.
Problem 1: The innocent soul they put back in (in this case Liam) will get all the memories of what the demon did while in his body and has to come to terms with that. Strictly speaking that is punishing an innocent and on some level that's evil.
Problem 2: The happiness clause (how stupid are these Gypsies) will bring back Angelus so did they never consider that if he is released he would eventually come after them again. It's certainly what I would do if I were him.
Problem 3: The happiness clause itself makes no sense because I guess it means complete piece of mind and soul. What does that have to do with sex? Some people experience it looking at a sunset/sunrise or holding their newborn baby or whatever. There are a thousand ways to achieve perfect happiness. It's true for us humans so why should it be different (and only tied to sex) for souled vampires?
Problem 4: How did the Gypsies know that Liam was a 'good' person? What if Liam was someone who was bad or evil when he was human? He would have had no trouble continuing doing evil deeds as the souled vampire. Or simply could have given in to the demon because he is unable to handle it. Because both shows have proven that humans/things with souls can be just as evil and mass murdering as ones without.
Problem 5: When Jenny Calendar put the restauration spell back together why in the world would she also put the happiness clause back in? She was trying to give Buffy her boyfriend back and I doubt she wanted Angelus to get loose again.
Problem 6: Why did no one ever research how to make his soul permanent? Frankly that's something that should have been a priority for a lot of people.
I think I could go on and on about the things that make no sense to me...
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Jul 22, 2010 22:16:33 GMT -5
Your basic mistake in all of your questions, is that Liam, IS DEAD.
Ok, maybe the gypsies brought back his soul, but Angel IS NOT Liam.
Angel is a demon with a soul, propably Liam's, but that doesn't make him Liam, just a demon who has a soul, that's why he feels so guilty.
If he was Liam, he wouldn't feel guilty, because Liam didn't commit all those crimes, but a demon did.
Reconsider all the problems adding this detail.
Maybe the only stupid thing they did, was with the total happiness with Buffy, since afterwards Angel had sex with others, felt in love again, had a son, etc.
It was a good thinking for season 2, but after, especially when Angel moved in Los Angeles and started a new life, the big holes trying to cover the "i can't get too happy, i'll become bad" were sometimes ridiculous.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 22, 2010 22:28:08 GMT -5
Your basic mistake in all of your questions, is that Liam, IS DEAD. Ok, maybe the gypsies brought back his soul, but Angel IS NOT Liam. Angel is a demon with a soul, propably Liam's, but that doesn't make him Liam, just a demon who has a soul, that's why he feels so guilty. Why wouldn't it be Liam's soul? And Liam isn't actually dead. He was turned into a vampire, thus losing his soul. He changed his name, got his soul again and had another name change. I don't think that all of the original human disapears when they get turned; you just take a way a part of that being, the soul, and add a demonic element (the demon might not be thing in itself, just animalistic instincts that's added to the original being). Which means that Liam still exists today, in Angel. But he has changed, as a person, because of the demon and his experiences. I kind of compare it to getting high on really bad drug A part of you goes away, your conscience, and a new part if added, the drug, making you act out of character. Then you sober up, which is comparable to regaining the soul. Just my interpretation. But I definitly think that we were suppose to think that atleast traces of Angel's original persona exist to this day. |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Jul 23, 2010 4:38:43 GMT -5
It's not what you think or what you make out of it, it's what the mythology of the series tells us.
And they are very clear about it.
When somedoby becomes a vampire, he is NOT the human he was anymore.
The human inside of him dies, and a demon takes his place and his memories.
Buffy's words from the episode "Lie to me", season 2
And it is not the only time that this was mentioned in the series.
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jr24tw
Innocent Bystander
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Post by jr24tw on Jul 23, 2010 4:46:54 GMT -5
Your basic mistake in all of your questions, is that Liam, IS DEAD. Ok, maybe the gypsies brought back his soul, but Angel IS NOT Liam. Angel is a demon with a soul, propably Liam's, but that doesn't make him Liam, just a demon who has a soul, that's why he feels so guilty. You are actually wrong. Angel's body is Liam's body. Both Angel and Angelus have Liam's memories. And the soul is, like it or not, Liam's. Angel and Angelus are of course different from Liam. Never said they weren't. And that's a given considering a demon inside of them. Not to mention a good hundred years of 'living' that Liam missed. How could Angel and Liam be the same? Are you telling me that if someone tossed you out of your body and uses it to commit mass murder you wouldn't feel beyond crappy when you get back in and are shown all of the horror? Or that you wouldn't feel responsible because you let yourself be turned into a demon who did all that? Somehow I can't imagine that. Why should I? Don't see any reason to do that. Well then I'll take Angel's word over Buffy's because he is actually a vampire. In the S3 epsiode Doppelgangland when Willow meets her vamp self go listen to the dialogue when they lock vamp Willow up. When Buffy tells Willow that her vamp self is totally different...listen to what Angel has to say. Or tried to say. |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Jul 23, 2010 6:57:02 GMT -5
No, pal, you are the one who is totally wrong.
Angel's words had to do with the PERSONALITY, he never said that a vampire is a human that was kind of infected and demonised
The series, and Joss is very clear about it, and it was mentioned many many times during the episodes of Buffy/Angel
Angel, episode "Disharmony"
If i search more, i will find plenty of times that this is told in the episodes, when sb becomes a vampire, the human dies, and a demon takes his place.
I never said that Angel's soul is not Liam, propably it is, but soulfull Angel IS NOT Liam, this was also very clear, Angel was always a demon, a vampire with a soul, never a human soul trapped inside or shacked up with a demon in the same body.
You certainly need a rerun on the series....
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Randi Giles
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Post by Randi Giles on Jul 23, 2010 7:27:06 GMT -5
Here's how I look at it. Angelus(demon) and Liam(human) are two different beings that have possibly shared the same soul. Rather or not Angel had Liam's soul or not when he got it, it was his feeling or his choice to feel guilty for all the things he's done. Or at least that's what the Gypsies forced on him. It's actually kind of sad to think of the fact that the Gypsies probably took Liam soul from where ever he was in the afterlife to be put in a demon. Unless he was in hell.  Leaving one hell to go to another. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 23, 2010 7:54:31 GMT -5
It's not what you think or what you make out of it, it's what the mythology of the series tells us. And they are very clear about it. When somedoby becomes a vampire, he is NOT the human he was anymore. The human inside of him dies, and a demon takes his place and his memories. Buffy's words from the episode "Lie to me", season 2 And it is not the only time that this was mentioned in the series. I don't think the characters always knew what they were talking about. People get facts wrong, and I don't think they had any real way of knowing what exactly happens. They drew conclusions, helped by fear and hatred, about what a vampires is. They tell themselves that a vampire isn't the person they used to be, just a echo. That a stranger, a demon, takes their place. Yet Spike loved his mom after he was turned. Harmony was vain, like when she lived, and she still wanted to be friends with Cordelia. Gunn still wanted to fight evil when he was turned. Vamp Willow was bi. So was Willow (that's a matter of definition, I know). That seems like more than memories to me. You can call it memories if you want, but I call it traces of the original personality, a part of what makes a person a person. We, and the characters will probably never know. The vampire, is it a demon spirit stuck in a human body with memories, and the original human went away with the soul? Or is it a human, minus the soul plus animalistic instincts that changes the nature of the being, not a seperate being taking the humans place? I have no idea what the council knows about this, or how much they told Buffy, and how much Buffy assumed. That line from Lie to me was said in anger and sadness. Not sure if she, or the other characters, every really talked about this. It's not like it would make it easier to slay, thinking of vampires as part of people they once were friends with. EDIT- Willow: "That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. [aside to Buffy, worried] And I think I'm kinda gay."
Buffy: [reassuringly] "Willow, just remember that a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person that it was."
Angel: [without thinking] "Well, actually... [off Buffy's look] That's a good point."We can't be sure if Angel wanted to say "Well, actually, she has her memories" or "her sexual preferences" or "traces of the personality" or whatever. But I assume Angel meant traces of the original personality, which to me is more than memories. Depends on how you define personlity of course. To me, the personlity in the real world is determined by how each person's brain functions, how we're wired. Our personlity depends on the chemical stuff in our brains, as proven by science (I've heard stories about how people with deseases, for example brain cancer, change, they become nicer, lazier, angrier, etc etc) I think that in the Buffyverse, the vampire's brain is basically the same as when he/she was human. Just altered. I think the demon blood caused a mutation, that changed the beings body and brain, but not completely. The human was remodelled, not re-made. Which means that more or less of the personality, not just the memories which exist in one part of the brain, "go over" with the person when she is turned. Kind of like zombies in zombiemovies, expect not as altering. The infection infects/eats the original cells, but also joins with them, creates something new, part of the old. 2 plus 2 equalls 4, a new number, but that still has the 2's in it. Human plus infection minus soul equals vampire. I hope that made sense. I just don't think that the personality lays entirely in the soul, or that the human personality simply disappears and a demon's replaces it. I know this is speculation, drawn on observations, but it's the most reasonable theory(I've read/come up with) to me. I don't buy that a demon magically appears because blood mixes. Did that demon spirit lay in wait or was it created as soon as the blood mixed? |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Jul 23, 2010 8:25:17 GMT -5
Ok, maybe people do get the facts wrong, but Angel never said that he is Liam trapped in the same body with a demon inside of him.
He always refered to himslef as a vampire, a demon with a soul.
Like Moon Eyes said, according to the mythology of the series, a soul is not what makes a human, but it's something that humans have and demons don't.
Remember in Angel, episode "I've Got You Under My Skin",
where the trapped demon who demonised the little boy, said
So basically, a soul, according to the mythology, is not what makes a human, it's not necessary, but a soul is a characteristic that humans have, at least most of them.
It's not how we interpret something, is what the mythology tells us.
And they've told us many times, that Angel is not Liam,
that Angel is a demon with a soul,
that humans just die when they become vampires,
that the vampire takes the personality and memories of the human,
that a soul is not necessary for humans, but it's what makes a difference,
that a demon can survive with a soul, but has to face the consequences and the qualms and the guilty conscience of his previous actions and murders
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jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Jul 23, 2010 8:31:00 GMT -5
No, pal, you are the one who is totally wrong. Angel's words had to do with the PERSONALITY, he never said that a vampire is a human that was kind of infected and demonised Don't call me pal. We can be civilized about this. I have my opinion you have yours. I never said he was a human infected either. I was talking about personality. Which is the important thing. Who cares about the body? Which for a fact is Liam's otherwise Angel wouldn't look like Liam, period. Can't get more obvious than that really. They were NEVER clear about it at all. Both shows tried to show one thing and it ended up being another. That's why the oppinion differs so much when it comes to this topic. People can make up their own minds and find an answer themselves. You and I have a different oppinion. Lets just agree to disagree. Simple. First off, stop saying people get their facts wrong. It's disrespectful and I've had it really. And I never said he was Liam trapped in a body. The original soul from the first spell is Liam's. There is no way around that. So at first it was Liam's soul in Angelus. And I already said Angel is not Liam because all the things the soul will 'see' when getting into Angelus plus anything that happens after changed him into Angel. I feel like repeating myself here... |
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leyki
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Post by leyki on Jul 23, 2010 8:40:01 GMT -5
They were very clear about it, they've said it dozens of times.
I really wonder what makes something clear for you, what did you expect to hear, to believe what they've told us so many times?
Personality is not what makes a human, personalities change all the time. Demons had personalities of their own, personality is not what makes the difference.
What did you expect, a seminar by Joss explaining his mythology? He wrote it down, in the episodes, so many times.
We're talking about Joss's work, not Lost with all the unanswered questions here, and Joss was very clear about it.
EDIT
And when i said people get the facts wrong, i meant people in the series, not people here....Skytteflickan88 was talking about people in the show, and what they heard or knew about vampires, or at least that's what i understood.
And i never said that Angel's soul is not Liam's soul, i just said propably because i don't remember exactly the episode to see what it's written about it, exactly.
But, Liam, and the vampire named Angel-Angelus, are two different creatures.
Angel is not Liam, Angelus is not Liam.
But, Angel and Angelus is the SAME demon, the only difference is that Angel has a soul, ok, Liam's soul.
That does not make him Liam, though, Liam is dead since 1753, if i remember correctly.
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jr24tw
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Post by jr24tw on Jul 23, 2010 8:50:20 GMT -5
Personality is not what makes a human, personalities change all the time. Demons had personalities of the own, personality is not what makes the difference. Wow. So your own personality is not what makes you...you? Well what does make you then? Because last I checked we all have different personalities that make us unique among billions of people. Personality changes because of many aspects in your life. But you will never loose all of it or change everything. And I'm not disagreeing that Liam/Angel/Angelus are 3 entities of their own. But that you will find some parts that stay the same. He wasn't which is why there are people who agree with your point. Others would agree with Skytteflickan88 for example. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 23, 2010 8:55:39 GMT -5
Ok, maybe people do get the facts wrong, but Angel never said that he is Liam trapped in the same body with a demon inside of him. He always refered to himslef as a vampire, a demon with a soul. Like Moon Eyes said, according to the mythology of the series, a soul is not what makes a human, but it's something that humans have and demons don't. Remember in Angel, episode "I've Got You Under My Skin", where the trapped demon who demonised the little boy, said So basically, a soul, according to the mythology, is not what makes a human, it's not necessary, but a soul is a characteristic that humans have, at least most of them. It's not how we interpret something, is what the mythology tells us. And they've told us many times, that Angel is not Liam, that Angel is a demon with a soul, that humans just die when they become vampires, that the vampire takes the personality and memories of the human, that a soul is not necessary for humans, but it's what makes a difference, that a demon can survive with a soul, but has to face the consequences and the qualms and the guilty conscience of his previous actions and murders True, a soul is just part of a human, not the whole she bang (did I say that right?) Which kind of helps my point, about there being something of the original being that survives the siring. What made that boy human, even tough souless, is something else. He could walk, talk, think. His thoughts, his brain, didn't disappear with the soul, so I don't think that part of him, his personality, would have "died" in case he got turned. If he liked marsmallows when alive, he might like them when undead. Btw, what did you mean by that first line? That him talking about Liam as a different person proves there's nothing of Liam left? But that he doesn't call himself Liam anymore doesn't mean that there's nothing of the human left, does it? Because sometimes people refer to themselves earlier in life as a he or she. "I'm not the same person anymore. That little girl, little Annie, is gone, replaced by me, the woman." for example. And the mythology of the show is open for interpretation, because they don't define what a soul is, or a demon, or what makes us human. That's up to us to interpret and speculate about. What is a demon? What is a soul? How much of the demon takes over? How relevant is the soul? Is the human made up of soul plus personality? In that case, how much of the personality of the person "dies" when turned? Those question, and more, are left unanswered, which means that we have to guess. That's what I'm saying. Liam was personality+memories+soul. Angelus was personality+memories+demon. Liam's personality, a part of the original human, survives to live on in the vampire. The human doesn't disappear entirely, a part live on. What exactly is a personality to you? I think to move forward in this conversation we need to understand each others definitions. You say the human die, yet you say that the human's personality survives, whish to me is part of the human, ergo, the human does not die, it changes. |
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