Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Sept 24, 2010 13:33:50 GMT -5
I remember that line to. Regardless of if he was insane or not the line was said so Im taking it as Dawn has a soul. I think it's clear that Dawn has a soul. But I claim the only way she could have gotten one is because the Key has always had one. If we follow this hypothesis the knights of Byzantium should never have tried to kill her - because if her 'key essence' is her soul it would have been released instantly and Glory could have had her hands on it. Similarly, Glory had no need to wait and build her tower because simply killing Dawn anytime at any place should have released the Key essence and opened the gates for her. As I see it, this is the greatest controversy of the entire 'Dawn is still the key' - or Dawn's soul is the key essence idea.
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Post by angeliclestat on Sept 24, 2010 14:04:29 GMT -5
I think people have looked a bit too closely to the 'Dawn as Key' thing. There was an awful lot wrong of it in theory and unfortunatly it doesn't hold up under close scrutiny.
Good season though:)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 24, 2010 15:47:20 GMT -5
If we follow this hypothesis the knights of Byzantium should never have tried to kill her - because if her 'key essence' is her soul it would have been released instantly and Glory could have had her hands on it. Similarly, Glory had no need to wait and build her tower because simply killing Dawn anytime at any place should have released the Key essence and opened the gates for her. As I see it, this is the greatest controversy of the entire 'Dawn is still the key' - or Dawn's soul is the key essence idea. If she's already dead, though, she can't be bled and can't be used in the ritual to open Glory's gate. The fact that Dawn's blood is needed for the ritual is more evidence that she is the Key rather than a container... a green mass of energy has no blood. Presumably if Dawn died, the Key would be released like a regular soul, and go wherever. The toymaker in Living Doll seemed to be more concerned that it would physically leak out of her while she was still alive. Why a soul would leak out of a broken-but-still-living doll, but not out of a broken-but-still-living person, he didn't explain. Maybe because Dawn's soul only caught his attention because he was crazy and able to see the Key. (An open question is why, since Glory's formula for opening the portal required bleeding the Key's body, she was so surprised to find out it was in the form of a living person?)
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Post by wenxina on Sept 24, 2010 15:53:19 GMT -5
I think Glory's formula was pretty flexible. Because it came in a human vessel, the easiest way for the energy to flow was to bleed it. If it had been an orange or something like that, I'm sure she would probably have juiced it.
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cutiepatootie
Common Vampire
lay waste to the world, and everything in it[Mo0:0]
Posts: 87
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Post by cutiepatootie on Sept 24, 2010 17:10:42 GMT -5
I feel really sorry for the Slayers haha.
First they get thrown into a fight they didn't start and then they're hated by those they protect, now it's raining virtually indestructible demons.
And even after all that, they're fighting on the streets. Gotta love em'.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Sept 24, 2010 19:34:34 GMT -5
I think Glory's formula was pretty flexible. Because it came in a human vessel, the easiest way for the energy to flow was to bleed it. If it had been an orange or something like that, I'm sure she would probably have juiced it. GLORY (cont'd) Anoint this thing. Now. (to Dawn) You know what they're all chanting for out there, "Dawnie?" Blood. 'Cause we found out, your blood? It's the Key to the Key. All I gotta do is bleed you dry, the Portal opens up, and I go home. So knock yourself out, girlfriend. Make me feel bad as you can, 'cause tomorrow? The High Priest smears ash on Dawn's forehead again. GLORY (cont'd) You bleed, little girl. I want to point one more time that they actually researched how to open the portal? And that Glory had to wait until 'tomorrow'. And build the tower in that particular spot. And that Buffy's plan was to wait out until the moment will pass- because after that the Key was pretty much useless to Glory as it was before the appointed moment.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 24, 2010 21:29:56 GMT -5
If blood was the "key to the Key," then it seems like a pretty bad move for the monks to put it in the form of something that bleeds. Unless they had to... because the Key is a living thing and couldn't survive in a non-living body.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Sept 24, 2010 23:41:23 GMT -5
If blood was the "key to the Key," then it seems like a pretty bad move for the monks to put it in the form of something that bleeds. Unless they had to... because the Key is a living thing and couldn't survive in a non-living body. I suppose it's not out of the question to suggest that the Key has to be organic in some way. Certainly says a lot about the nature of magic in the Buffyverse, or at least complements Willow's lessons in... uh, Lessons.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 25, 2010 0:03:20 GMT -5
The monks made the Key a person, specifically Dawn, because they knew that Buffy would protect it. That was the reason for sending it to Buffy... the Slayer was their only shot at keeping it safe, and by making it precious to her, they ensured that she would protect it with her life. Sure, they could have just made it a rock and cast it into the middle of the Pacific Ocean, but where's the drama in that?
But re: Dawn's blood, it's only the key to the Key because the Key is now in mortal form. Blood in this case is the conduit for the energy. Not utterly necessary if the Key wasn't a bleed-able organism. The Key in its raw form was supposed to be a ball of green energy. Wouldn't need to bleed to access the energy since it would be naked.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 25, 2010 7:47:43 GMT -5
These are questions that only Joss could answer definitively. But to summarize my points:
1. Dawn is consistently referred to as being the Key, not containing the Key.
2. The Key is apparently inseparable from her, since otherwise Glory would simply have killed her and taken it to use at her leisure.
3. Dawn is a human being, but one that was constructed without any reproductive process from Buffy's DNA. How, we don't know. But she wouldn't have had the opportunity to get a soul in the usual way. And I don't buy that the monks had a locker full of spare souls that they could have used to fit her with one.
4. The Key seems far too important to be a simple one-time-use thing. A whole order of people existed for many centuries, and gave their lives, just to keep it safe. Dawn thinks she is no longer the Key, but would have no apparent way of knowing this. Buffy isn't so sure... in these preview pages, she says "Like Dawn is a Key?" (Present tense.)
We may get an answer by the end of this season as to whether she's still the Key or not. But I'd certainly love to ask Joss whether the Key was a living, souled entity before it was Dawn... and if not, where her soul came from.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 25, 2010 10:47:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure if it sounds like I'm coming down on one side or the other. But I agree that Dawn is the Key. But the mortal body isn't the Key per se, but it's not solely a container either. For one, the Key needs to be kept alive, in order for the energy to flow. Killing Dawn removes a part of the equation: the conduit. According to the laws of conservation of energy, energy cannot be destroyed. Meaning that the Key isn't the mortal body, because that can be destroyed. So what is the Key, then? The spark? The intangible entity known as the soul? Life exists because of energy. It's all thermodynamics at the very base. The Key is energy (that much is irrefutable). If the soul gives "life", then yeah, the argument can be made that in one way or another, the Key was transformed, or at least translated into a soul in the unique packaging that the monks placed it in. Does that necessarily mean that the Key was a living, possibly sentient entity before it was placed in Dawn? No. No more so than the water being at the top of the waterfall, falling down is alive or sentient. Energy is just energy. It flows from one point to another, transforming from one form to another.
What happens to the Key once it's been used? If it's purely energy, then it cannot be destroyed. It can, however, be transferred to something else. Creating a portal/gateway requires energy. Presumably, the Key would be extinguished, in the opening of gateways. Dawn would have died, the soul would have moved on. Her body would have remained, once more suggesting that the body is not the Key. But the body is necessary, as has been pointed out. Otherwise, it would have been prudent to remove the Key from the body. Given what we know, I would suppose than in translating the Key into a soul, the monks made it inextricable from the body, since in its current form, it requires a way for the energy to flow.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 25, 2010 11:33:16 GMT -5
I'm betting Dawn's Keyness becomes an issue before the end of the season. It's been mentioned several times, as if the writers have been trying to subtly remind us of it.
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Maggie
Innocent Bystander
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Post by Maggie on Sept 25, 2010 12:32:26 GMT -5
I'm betting Dawn's Keyness becomes an issue before the end of the season. It's been mentioned several times, as if the writers have been trying to subtly remind us of it. I've been making this bet for a long time. And I've had vigorous arguments with folks who want to argue that it's some huge text that Dawn isn't the key anymore. In a world where Buffy's DNA can be used to make a distinctly different non-clone, it's flat silly to parse the text for fine logic on the nature of the key. I'd use the following logics. (a) Having Dawn say she's not the key anymore is a way of saying the issue is tabled for now. It wasn't going to be an issue in season 6 when she said it. If the writers don't need to use her as the key later on, then she's not. If they do, they say she didn't know. Cause where exactly is Dawn supposed to get this intelligence? (b) Something as ancient and powerful as the key is as likely to have multiple uses as one. As you say, Dawn's keyness has been mentioned on multiple occasions. We've had green magical energy show up on multiple occasions. And we started the season about an event called Twilight with a character named Dawn sitting around as a major giant. #25 is an extended metaphor about Dawn's keyness. I bet heavily that Dawn is gigantically important to the resolution of season 8. I bet only slightly less heavily that her keyness is part of that importance. And I defy anybody who says that if the text goes that way it's some sort of major retcon. Even if the 'verses mechanics where painstakingly laid down so that subtle inferences could be drawn based on it, there's plenty of room for her to still be the key; and the 'verse is NOT built with that sort of fine attention to detail. It's all about the emotion. Dawn is Buffy's human other. Dawn is and always has been key that way. Buffy's estrangement from humanity mirrors her estrangement from Dawn. It's been a gigantic problem all season long. Not a leap to saying it's a key gigantic problem.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 25, 2010 12:58:30 GMT -5
I would say that it should be easy to find out if Dawn is still the Key or not... just find a crazy person and see how he responds to her.
But it's not clear whether that phenomenon was specifically tied to Glory and the approach of the mystical window for her to use the Key.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 25, 2010 13:18:08 GMT -5
(b) Something as ancient and powerful as the key is as likely to have multiple uses as one. While I agree with the general path of your post (heck, Dawn's Keyness is mentioned in the preview for this issue) I do disagree with the quoted section. As I pointed out earlier, energy cannot be destroyed, but can be transformed/transferred. The opening of a portal (or all portals) requires energy. Which, to me, sounds like the Key's energy will be used up in the process, if it ever goes to completion. Apparently, once it starts, there's no stopping it until the Key is drained. So, I infer that the Key is a one time deal. Dawn lives because Buffy closed the portal. If the Key was reusable, it wouldn't be "energy" so much as a catalyst, in science jargon.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 25, 2010 14:45:30 GMT -5
Which, to me, sounds like the Key's energy will be used up in the process, if it ever goes to completion. Apparently, once it starts, there's no stopping it until the Key is drained. So, I infer that the Key is a one time deal. Dawn lives because Buffy closed the portal. If that's the case, then Dawn would still be the Key because her blood/energy was not drained. (However, it would mean that Buffy is/was also the Key... one of several things that didn't make much sense about season 5. It's a good thing it had such an effective emotional impact because the logic... not so much.) I do maintain that it would be lame to have the Key... an ancient, revered power with a whole order of people willing to die for it... be just a gadget for opening a single portal. That's a pretty mundane thing by Buffyverse standards.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 25, 2010 14:57:22 GMT -5
Didn't just open a single portal. Opened pretty much just about every possible portal. Which allowed a bunch of things to crossover... which coming to think of it... is kinda the opposite of what the Seed does. And I'm in the camp that says that Dawn's still the Key, because she was created out of it. She may not open anything anymore, even during the Tampax Pearl days, but that's probably because they stars aren't aligned in the right way anymore. Glory was quite antsy about when the Key was found... she had a deadline. But once used, the Key expires, is what I'm saying.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 25, 2010 15:21:16 GMT -5
Or maybe that was the only time Glory could have used the Key to get to her specific home dimension. Maybe the Key leads to different places at different times, and if you miss your stop, you have to wait for the entire cosmos to make a complete rotation before it aligns again... which could be millions or billions of years... hence all the talk of "the stars being aligned."
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Post by wenxina on Sept 25, 2010 18:23:55 GMT -5
Yes, that's a legitimate possibility. Also, there are rituals that need to be performed... which would explain why every paper cut isn't opening up a multitude of doorways to hell dimensions.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Sept 26, 2010 13:42:31 GMT -5
Didn't just open a single portal. Opened pretty much just about every possible portal. Which allowed a bunch of things to crossover... which coming to think of it... is kinda the opposite of what the Seed does. And I'm in the camp that says that Dawn's still the Key, because she was created out of it. She may not open anything anymore, even during the Tampax Pearl days, but that's probably because they stars aren't aligned in the right way anymore. Glory was quite antsy about when the Key was found... she had a deadline. But once used, the Key expires, is what I'm saying. Adding another quote - this time from the shooting script of the Gift - I always prefer to rely on the canonical texts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CLOSE ON: DAWN'S FOOT As blood seeps down her leg, pooling on her foot and finally dripping down into the air... EXT. MID-AIR - CONTINUING - NIGHT The blood stops in the middle of the air some twenty feet down, clearly suspended by some mystical force. Another few drops join it and they begin to transform into a crackling ball of energy, white with power at the very center.EXT. PLATFORM - NIGHT Buffy hurriedly unties Dawn, starts dragging her down the platform. Dawn resists. Finally stops, looking back. BUFFY Come on! Dawn looks at the ball of energy. The platform rumbles and shakes, wind whipping both girls' hair. Looks back at Buffy. DAWN I can't. BUFFY What? We have to get down! DAWN Buffy, it's started. EXT. MID-AIR - CONTINUING - NIGHT The energy ball grows -- and shoots out a lightning-like tentacle of energy. EXT. INTERSECTION - CONTINUING - NIGHT It hits an intersection of the street -- and the street crumbles away into a fiery abyss. EXT. MID-AIR - CONTINUING - NIGHT Again, a bolt -- EXT. BUILDING - CONTINUING - NIGHT And a nearby building is transformed into an alien looking structure. Close on the structure, and we see unearthly zombie creatures start to crawl out of the holes in it. They are white-faced and horrible, like the decaying corpses of things that were never human. ... EXT. MID-AIR ANGLE: THE BALL OF ENERGYAs Buffy's body sails down into and disappears in white light, causing the energy to go even wilder. ... EXT. MID-AIR BUFFY -- her eyes slowly closing ... EXT. MID-AIR THE ENERGY BALL -- expanding and suddenly contracting out of existence...EXT. CONSTRUCTION SITE A PILE OF RUBBLE -- as Buffy's dead body hits it from a great height. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read it as - the Summer's blood was indeed the key to the Key - that blazing white energy ball ( it was white not green because it finally was used for what it was made for). Dawn still has her soul as the energy ball is formed and used for opening the portal to all the Hell dimensions at once... which means the Key is being used - as the energy ball is expanding - finally Buffy's blood - which is also the key to the Key is used to stop the expansion - the energy ball winks out of existence - Dawn is still alive and ensouled - the Key is gone- used - wasted - Dawn's ( or Buffy's) blood does not open anything any more.
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