neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 30, 2010 0:20:45 GMT -5
Ok I'm going to buy this issue, then either burn it and withdraw my standing order for the Angel series or try to ride it out until we get the new writers. But honestly it seems like a waste of ÂŁ2.99 I agree with Emmie, Spike cares about what's real so why would he make fake prophesies? Spike with a soul cares about what's real, but can we truthfully say the same about un-souled Spike? Un-souled Spike wasn't concerned about what's real when he had Warren make the Buffybot. Spike without a soul isn't going to act like Spike with a soul, and it's bound to affect the way he thinks. this is started to be seen all through willinghams run between, sex with random ppl, ego stroking to a greater extent than normal, willingness to torture, and his self promoting prophecy idea.
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Maggie
Innocent Bystander
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Post by Maggie on Jul 30, 2010 0:47:45 GMT -5
Spike with a soul cares about what's real, but can we truthfully say the same about un-souled Spike? Un-souled Spike wasn't concerned about what's real when he had Warren make the Buffybot. Spike without a soul isn't going to act like Spike with a soul, and it's bound to affect the way he thinks. That's assuming you abstract from his character development. At one time, unsouled Spike had Warren make the Buffybot. But in the very same episode (!!!) when Spike gets the bot, he also does something Buffy calls *real*. Intervention is all about a turning point in Spike's story when he realizes that he wants painful and real rather than something more pleasant but unreal. After that, you'd have to tell a story about why Spike decided to go back to wanting something unreal -- about why he decided to forget or set aside the lesson he learned in Intervention. But for IDW, somehow losing his soul erases that movement in his unsouled journey. Right. Emmie, I agree that the Mariah interview doesn't help matters. I mean, it's nice that she sees that there's a fundamental difference between the two vampires, and I'm always happy about stories that explore that difference. But the persistent mischaracterization pretty much ruins it. If season 2 Spike (i.e. unsouled Spike at his most purely evil) had been as shallow and self-obsessed as this 'Spike' he'd never have been a popular character and would surely have been disposed of mid-season. Spike always had something more going on. I haven't seen anything from IDW that captures Spike's depth or his charisma. There's nothing there to care about.
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 30, 2010 1:08:16 GMT -5
Okay, so Spike really doesn't have a soul. Still doesn't explain his actions. Soulless Spike wouldn't wear heart boxers. Soulless Spike wouldn't care about prophecies or even attempt to make up fake ones. Soulless Spike now would be similar to his character in Buffy s5, hell even s2. The soulless Spike of then is very different from this soulless Spike now
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Jul 30, 2010 3:36:47 GMT -5
And we must remember soulless Spike's relationship with Drusilla, I think his devastation at her affair with Angelus proves to an extent that he cared about how genuine her affections for him were. I know the Buffybot thing is an obvious way to batten down my argument but I think that was a case of his desparate love for buffy overriding his desire for "real" things, and even with the Buffybot you can see him trying to lie to himself about her true origins- forbidding her from saying the word programme etc.
I stick by my original argument. Spike wouldn't do this. He wants a prophesy not a piece of paper entitled "prophesy".
But despite this, after reading a bit more, I've decided I'm probably going to keep my standing order going for a few more issues. Because, despite me not seeing this as a canon development of Spike's character, I still find it really fun. It's like a rather good fanfcition, and I must say his seech to the writers sounded for the first time a little like something Spike would say, at least his relationship with Angel was almost perfectly done. (See, I'm not all negative)
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veiriti
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 170
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Post by veiriti on Jul 30, 2010 3:41:59 GMT -5
I loved the interview with Mariah and especially what she said about the difference between Spike and Angel, but it doesn’t make me to feel better… Well, I’ve appreciated her efforts to cover the Willingam’s fail. This guy really have no idea not only about Spike’s character, but about the whole Whedonverse - his Illyria is so wrong either, even Angel, don’t mention about his limb-dusting explanation… but with Spike’s character he really failed… From the beginning of his arc he’s trying belittle Spike, to make him a less heroic in the favor of the protagonist Angel and especially in a favor of that sniveler Connor (who apparently is Willingam’s favorite!)– yeah, both of them are the big heroes and the champions – the unique vampire with a soul and his chosen one son! Spike is nothing than a common vampire without soul who only willing to being a hero, just like the soulless vamp-Gunn wanted on ATF… All these Spike’s speeches about the fake prophesy reminds me to Gunn’s dialogue with Angel on ATF before to stake him… That’s the Willingham’s vision for Spike… a loathsome boaster who is thinking only with his lower head (inside his heart-shaped boxers!) and it’s not worthy for anything even for his soul… So he fabricated Spike to lose his soul as an explanation of Spike's OOC (just like he did with the "limbs-dustig")… but I don’t like it at all… I'm still feeling nervous and sad about these fabricate explanations... Well there are certain fans who loved Willingham’s "development" … I’m not surprised they have always wanted to see Spike written in a way like that - envious, shallow and soulless …
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Jul 30, 2010 3:47:33 GMT -5
^^^*Karmas* for hitting the nail on the head. Thank you for trying to sort it out, but why did you have to get rid of spike's soul? He couldn't ahve just been under a spell? Or traumatised? Or fame going to his head or SOMETHING!
But I do deeply apologise for all my anger about spike being OOC, clearly they're doing all that thye can to sort it out.
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veiriti
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 170
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Post by veiriti on Jul 30, 2010 4:19:41 GMT -5
^^^*Karmas* for hitting the nail on the head. Thank you for trying to sort it out, but why did you have to get rid of spike's soul? He couldn't ahve just been under a spell? Or traumatised? Or fame going to his head or SOMETHING! But I do deeply apologise for all my anger about spike being OOC, clearly they're doing all that thye can to sort it out. Thank, Billie, and karma for you too! Oh, I’m really confused and nervous about that situation - Spike’s soul is not like Angel’s – it’s not a curse, he wanted it and earned it in a fight… so to doesn’t even noticed that it’s just gone… it so weird… The transmutation or being under a spell would explain better his strange behavior… I even had a theory – it’s not the real Spike at all, well it’s not a Spike-bot, but maybe is his evil soulless vampire-clone and real Spike is somewhere in Vegas. Maybe someone (his enemy from the past who wants to destroy his future?!) kidnapped him and made that duplicate of him to take Angel down or for some other purposes… For me that could a better explanation of Spike’s OOCness than the lack of soul. As you and the other fans said – even the soulless Spike wouldn’t be act like this bad programmed “Spike-bot”… And you don’t need to apologize – all of us - the hardcore Spike fans are angry about Willingham’s arc… it would be nice if Willingham hadn’t decided to use Spike in his Angel’s series… I would be ok, waiting for Brian’s Spike series only… Willingham almost killed my joy of it…
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jul 30, 2010 4:56:34 GMT -5
I can't wait for Willingham to leave. When is that happening again? At first, I was excited for the new run of Angel, following the tragedy that was Aftermath. But as the issues progressed, I found myself falling out of love. Sure, the artwork is nice, but the characterisation is what's needed to make a story work. Heart boxer wearing Spike who shags anything that moves and writes fake prophecies? An Old One in sudden heat who wants to mate with Connor and birth his spawn, who'd probably take over the world with cheeriness? Floating rocks? Dez? A childish Gunn who throws tempter tantrums? What is this guy thinking? All this is making me not care about the Angel series and I really want to, I do, but I can't if this is what we're getting.
And I thought Armstrong was bad
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Post by wenxina on Jul 30, 2010 5:18:41 GMT -5
Willingham's last issue is #38.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Jul 30, 2010 7:31:40 GMT -5
Willingham's last issue is #38. Actually, if we're being totally honest, #35 was the last issue that Willingham wrote. While his plot will be continued on through #38, the people actually doing the writing from now on are Mariah and David. So it confirms that the ending to this issue isn't a twist. Spike has in fact lost his soul and just didn't notice. Right. Okay, then. When we conducted that interview, Mariah didn't think there would be a need to explain that the soul thing was more complex than the soul eater let on. After seeing the actual response, she figured it would be best to give a further explanation.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 30, 2010 10:22:43 GMT -5
Unsouled Spike through making the Buffybot, was shown once again how important real is. Just look at how he reviled the thing after losing what was real, Buffy. He couldn't stand to be in the same room as it in Bargaining.
Ha! See Maggie already ably handled that one.
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Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 10:54:59 GMT -5
If Spike has unwittingly written the prophecy about Twilight...and the events of "Angel" lead into the events of "Spike"...and the events of "Spike" lead into the events of "Buffy"...(Dark Horse working with IDW and Joss giving his blessing)
Well I am happy to put 2 and 2 together and get canon:)
You dont have to agree with me but that is the way I am viewing it and am happy with that:)
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Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 10:57:05 GMT -5
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 30, 2010 11:03:07 GMT -5
If Spike has unwittingly written the prophecy about Twilight...and the events of "Angel" lead into the events of "Spike"...and the events of "Spike" lead into the events of "Buffy"...(Dark Horse working with IDW and Joss giving his blessing) Well I am happy to put 2 and 2 together and get canon:) You dont have to agree with me but that is the way I am viewing it and am happy with that:) You sound determined not to have us mess up your little bubble.
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Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 11:03:34 GMT -5
Unsouled Spike through making the Buffybot, was shown once again how important real is. Just look at how he reviled the thing after losing what was real, Buffy. He couldn't stand to be in the same room as it in Bargaining. Ha! See Maggie already ably handled that one. Emmie and Maggie: If I posted how much I disliked Season 8 as much as you dislike the Angel ongoing...I would never get to sleep. I dont know how you get the energy to be so consistantly negative. Isn't it easier not to be?....you don't enjoy it - we get it. Is there anyway we can discuss other parts of the ongoing that isn't Spike or how much Willingham is hated? I just don't see the need to keep bringing it up or harping on about it. I don't do it in the Buffy thread because I just let the people who enjoy it get on with it...could you consider giving the rest of us that courtesy? It must get so frustrating and tiring being so negative about it...
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Jul 30, 2010 11:03:36 GMT -5
Can you confirm that as fact? I didn't realize it hadn't already been established. Bill is off the book. Mariah and he had discussed the story out in advance so that will be accounted for as this arc closes. Once the next arc begins the story and the writing will be all David and Mariah. If Spike has unwittingly written the prophecy about Twilight...and the events of "Angel" lead into the events of "Spike"...and the events of "Spike" lead into the events of "Buffy"...(Dark Horse working with IDW and Joss giving his blessing) Well I am happy to put 2 and 2 together and get canon:) You dont have to agree with me but that is the way I am viewing it and am happy with that:) Sorry, but Spike making allusions to Twilight was a joke, a little wink and a nod to the reader, nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 11:06:40 GMT -5
If Spike has unwittingly written the prophecy about Twilight...and the events of "Angel" lead into the events of "Spike"...and the events of "Spike" lead into the events of "Buffy"...(Dark Horse working with IDW and Joss giving his blessing) Well I am happy to put 2 and 2 together and get canon:) You dont have to agree with me but that is the way I am viewing it and am happy with that:) You sound determined not to have us mess up your little bubble. I could say the same about you:) It seems to be a sin nowadays to express positivity about the Angel comic...I dread coming onto the boards because it is constant negativity and anyone who DARES to speak otherwise is bombarded with scorn. It's very disheartening. I still really enjoy the comic and have always loved having a place to discuss it...but now I feel like I can't because I am going to be attacked about it.
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Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 11:08:24 GMT -5
Can you confirm that as fact? I didn't realize it hadn't already been established. Bill is off the book. Mariah and he had discussed the story out in advance so that will be accounted for as this arc closes. Once the next arc begins the story and the writing will be all David and Mariah. Oh I knew that David and Mariah would be taking over at #38, but I didnt realise they would be scripting from 36
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 30, 2010 11:14:07 GMT -5
Can you confirm that as fact? I didn't realize it hadn't already been established. Bill is off the book. Mariah and he had discussed the story out in advance so that will be accounted for as this arc closes. Once the next arc begins the story and the writing will be all David and Mariah. If Spike has unwittingly written the prophecy about Twilight...and the events of "Angel" lead into the events of "Spike"...and the events of "Spike" lead into the events of "Buffy"...(Dark Horse working with IDW and Joss giving his blessing) Well I am happy to put 2 and 2 together and get canon:) You dont have to agree with me but that is the way I am viewing it and am happy with that:) Sorry, but Spike making allusions to Twilight was a joke, a little wink and a nod to the reader, nothing more, nothing less. So Bill is already gone? not trying to say your wrong or anything but on the IDW boards Mariah said Bill was done after 38. Unless she meant bill's story was done after 38.
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bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
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Post by bitsy on Jul 30, 2010 11:17:30 GMT -5
I didn't realize it hadn't already been established. Bill is off the book. Mariah and he had discussed the story out in advance so that will be accounted for as this arc closes. Once the next arc begins the story and the writing will be all David and Mariah. Sorry, but Spike making allusions to Twilight was a joke, a little wink and a nod to the reader, nothing more, nothing less. So Bill is already gone? not trying to say your wrong or anything but on the IDW boards Mariah said Bill was done after 38. Unless she meant bill's story was done after 38. Bill plotted the story through #38 but Mariah and David are doing the actual scripting. So Bill isn't gone gone since it's still his story, but there is still a change in who does the physical scripting.
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