|
Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 11:22:04 GMT -5
That is very interesting...and good:)
I have really enjoyed the plot of the Angel...its the dialogue is where it has been lacking. Tischman seems to be good with dialogue, and I am sure Mariah is too....so it's all good:)
|
|
neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
|
Post by neowhobaz on Jul 30, 2010 11:30:18 GMT -5
o ok gotcha Bisty, thnx for the headsup.
As for the new stuff though It would be cool if they could get Urru back since he and tischman did great on Barbary coast but Casagrande is still good too.
|
|
bitsy
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 137
|
Post by bitsy on Jul 30, 2010 11:36:05 GMT -5
o ok gotcha Bisty, thnx for the headsup. As for the new stuff though It would be cool if they could get Urru back since he and tischman did great on Barbary coast but Casagrande is still good too. Urru is going to be very busy on the Spike book. He's actually working on it right now (well maybe not as we speak, but you get my meaning). I like Elena's art a lot and I'm really looking forward to seeing what different styles she'll be employing for the Illyria book.
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 30, 2010 12:13:12 GMT -5
You sound determined not to have us mess up your little bubble. I could say the same about you:) It seems to be a sin nowadays to express positivity about the Angel comic...I dread coming onto the boards because it is constant negativity and anyone who DARES to speak otherwise is bombarded with scorn. It's very disheartening. I still really enjoy the comic and have always loved having a place to discuss it...but now I feel like I can't because I am going to be attacked about it. Did you mean the the-comics-suck bubble?
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 12:25:13 GMT -5
Your opinion - not mine.
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 30, 2010 12:42:28 GMT -5
What? I think we're misunderstanding each other. I was refering to your line "I could say the same about you:)" I assumed that you meant the people who dislike the comics wouldn't have their bubble's burst either(or me personally, but I guess not since I haven't said anything anti-Angel in this thread, I think), but I wasn't sure, which is why I asked what you meant with: "Did you mean the the-comics-suck bubble?" Btw, I forgot to mention that I'm sorry you feel that way, about not being able to speak freely. I don't read the Angel comic threads that much, so I can't tell. Have you tried IDW's forum? I haven't been there for a while, but I would guess the people who hang out there still like the book.
|
|
Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
|
Post by Billie Erin on Jul 30, 2010 12:42:04 GMT -5
^^^*Karmas* for hitting the nail on the head. Thank you for trying to sort it out, but why did you have to get rid of spike's soul? He couldn't have just been under a spell? Or traumatised? Or fame going to his head or SOMETHING! But I do deeply apologise for all my anger about spike being OOC, clearly they're doing all that thye can to sort it out. Thank, Billie, and karma for you too! Oh, I’m really confused and nervous about that situation - Spike’s soul is not like Angel’s – it’s not a curse, he wanted it and earned it in a fight… so to doesn’t even noticed that it’s just gone… it so weird… The transmutation or being under a spell would explain better his strange behavior… I even had a theory – it’s not the real Spike at all, well it’s not a Spike-bot, but maybe is his evil soulless vampire-clone and real Spike is somewhere in Vegas. Maybe someone (his enemy from the past who wants to destroy his future?!) kidnapped him and made that duplicate of him to take Angel down or for some other purposes… For me that could a better explanation of Spike’s OOCness than the lack of soul. As you and the other fans said – even the soulless Spike wouldn’t be act like this bad programmed “Spike-bot”… And you don’t need to apologize – all of us - the hardcore Spike fans are angry about Willingham’s arc… it would be nice if Willingham hadn’t decided to use Spike in his Angel’s series… I would be ok, waiting for Brian’s Spike series only… Willingham almost killed my joy of it… Thank you veiriti I really like your clone idea, it would leave spike perfect and untouched until he is taken in by Mr Lynch- don't let willingham ruin him for us! It'll all be ok come Autumn. I hope. It really is stressing me out.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 13:38:52 GMT -5
Whoops - yes we did misunderstand each other.
What I am finding at the moment is that posting a positive opinion *anywhere* is going to be greeted with scorn (and sometimes outright hostility) by those who militantly hate it. Which is a pity.
No the IDW forums are as bad unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 30, 2010 14:09:32 GMT -5
Whoops - yes we did misunderstand each other. What I am finding at the moment is that posting a positive opinion *anywhere* is going to be greeted with scorn (and sometimes outright hostility) by those who militantly hate it. Which is a pity. No the IDW forums are as bad unfortunately. Think of it this way; Having your opinion shit on makes you yourself (hopefully) express your negative opinions in a less offensive manner in the future (unless you already do that). It's a learning opportunity. Since I became a Twilight fan I've had have had to put up with a lot of people bashing Twilight in very immature and repetative ways, and I learned to be more "constructive" in my later feedback of shows, movies, people, and so on, since I remember how much it sucked for me to read that kind of comments. Wow, that sounded annoyingly positive. Maybe start a "What do you like about Willingham's arc" thread and see if it works?
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Jul 30, 2010 15:05:47 GMT -5
Well I hope I express myself well and in an inoffensive way-I don't think that's the problem.I hope not anyway.
And I had actually thought of starting a thread like that:-)
|
|
|
Post by woundeddwarf on Jul 30, 2010 15:39:50 GMT -5
Spike with a soul cares about what's real, but can we truthfully say the same about un-souled Spike? Un-souled Spike wasn't concerned about what's real when he had Warren make the Buffybot. Spike without a soul isn't going to act like Spike with a soul, and it's bound to affect the way he thinks. That's assuming you abstract from his character development. At one time, unsouled Spike had Warren make the Buffybot. But in the very same episode (!!!) when Spike gets the bot, he also does something Buffy calls *real*. Intervention is all about a turning point in Spike's story when he realizes that he wants painful and real rather than something more pleasant but unreal. After that, you'd have to tell a story about why Spike decided to go back to wanting something unreal -- about why he decided to forget or set aside the lesson he learned in Intervention. But for IDW, somehow losing his soul erases that movement in his unsouled journey. Right. Well I think Spike taking the beating from Glory to protect Dawn was real, but I don't believe he did it because he suddenly realized he wanted something painful but more real. I'm quite sure he'd have preferred the reality of having *real Buffy* cater to his every need than to make do with the Buffybot, but the truth is that he knew the bot wasn't real and he didn't care. Taking the beating from Glory was about nothing more than his love for Buffy, and the reality of the whole thing was that the jig was up as far as the Buffybot was concerned, and by the end of the episode he didn't have much of a choice but to give the bot up. The episode actually shows us that Spike intended to keep the Buffybot, because when *real Buffy* was pretending to be the Buffybot, Spike told her she must never tell Glory about Dawn, and that indicates that he expected for the bot to still be around. And there's also Spike's reply when *real Buffy* as Buffybot asks him if he'd like to ravish her now, and he say's "Give us a minute. Got some bones need mending". So I think the idea that unsouled Spike was driven to protect Dawn by a desire for truth and reality rings as false as the idea that Spike sought his soul for those reasons. Unsouled Spike was driven by his love for Buffy and for all we know that same love could be driving him now. The prophecy he wants written does include the fact that he gets the girl. And he does have a specific girl in mind.
|
|
Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
|
Post by Billie Erin on Jul 30, 2010 15:53:29 GMT -5
Ok Spike does/doesn't care about "real" things debate aside I just don't see him writing fake prophesies, what's the point? It doesn't jibe with his thanking Angel for saying about people not seeing him coming if he weren't in the prophesies.
|
|
veiriti
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 170
|
Post by veiriti on Jul 30, 2010 16:28:18 GMT -5
You're welcome, Billie Erin! I'm glad you liked the idea about Spike's soulless twin I don't think the lack of his soul is a good explanation to his silly deeds... he's acting as he's out of his mind, not out of his soul ;D Ok Spike does/doesn't care about "real" things debate aside I just don't see him writing fake prophesies, what's the point? It doesn't jibe with his thanking Angel for saying about people not seeing him coming if he weren't in the prophesies. I do agree with you - why Spike is writing these fake prophesies?! What the hell they could help him? All about these fake prophesies sounds pretty strange for me and it's totally OOC even for the soulless Spike... Anyway, I've just read the good news - Willingham is leaving the series and issue 35 is his last issue in fact Bitsy, thanks for the heads up! it's raising my hope of the comics - I have a faith in Mariah and Tischman - I loved his Barbary coast.
|
|
|
Post by woundeddwarf on Jul 30, 2010 17:21:30 GMT -5
Ok Spike does/doesn't care about "real" things debate aside I just don't see him writing fake prophesies, what's the point? It doesn't jibe with his thanking Angel for saying about people not seeing him coming if he weren't in the prophesies. Except that Spike still had a soul when he said that to Angel. Sure, souled Spike wouldn't be writing fake prophecies, but this is Spike without a soul. Like I said earlier, the point could be the girl. Buffy.
|
|
Maggie
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 48
|
Post by Maggie on Jul 30, 2010 18:12:00 GMT -5
That's assuming you abstract from his character development. At one time, unsouled Spike had Warren make the Buffybot. But in the very same episode (!!!) when Spike gets the bot, he also does something Buffy calls *real*. Intervention is all about a turning point in Spike's story when he realizes that he wants painful and real rather than something more pleasant but unreal. After that, you'd have to tell a story about why Spike decided to go back to wanting something unreal -- about why he decided to forget or set aside the lesson he learned in Intervention. But for IDW, somehow losing his soul erases that movement in his unsouled journey. Right. Well I think Spike taking the beating from Glory to protect Dawn was real, but I don't believe he did it because he suddenly realized he wanted something painful but more real. I'm quite sure he'd have preferred the reality of having *real Buffy* cater to his every need than to make do with the Buffybot, but the truth is that he knew the bot wasn't real and he didn't care. Taking the beating from Glory was about nothing more than his love for Buffy, and the reality of the whole thing was that the jig was up as far as the Buffybot was concerned, and by the end of the episode he didn't have much of a choice but to give the bot up. The episode actually shows us that Spike intended to keep the Buffybot, because when *real Buffy* was pretending to be the Buffybot, Spike told her she must never tell Glory about Dawn, and that indicates that he expected for the bot to still be around. And there's also Spike's reply when *real Buffy* as Buffybot asks him if he'd like to ravish her now, and he say's "Give us a minute. Got some bones need mending". So I think the idea that unsouled Spike was driven to protect Dawn by a desire for truth and reality rings as false as the idea that Spike sought his soul for those reasons. You miss my point. Spike learned something at the end, when Buffy distinguished between what was real and what was not real. It was the big moment at the end of the episode, which is sort of a way of hanging a sign on something and saying "this is important"! Consider Spike's subsequent reaction to the bot, and notice that the lesson was learned. Except he's already been through a bunch of painful *soulless* lessons about trying to have Buffy that way. The end of that journey was the decision to go get a soul so he could figure things out. The present plot requires that Spike completely forget what he had already learned while soulless -- not to mention whatever he might have learned when he reflected on things while souled. It's ridickerous... at least to anybody who takes Joss's emphasis on characters history and development seriously. It'd be like telling a story about Willow where she was suddenly nerdy, shy, into boys and computers and arguing that it's all completely in character because that's how Willow was back in season 1. It's an argument that ignores Willow's history, just as your argument ignores Spike's.
|
|
|
Post by woundeddwarf on Jul 30, 2010 19:32:23 GMT -5
Here's where we differ. I don't see Spike seeking a soul so he could figure things out. I see Spike seeking a soul because he believed if he had a soul that Buffy might love him. Spike thought having a soul would enable him to get the girl, and it wasn't until after he had the soul that he realized it doesn't quite work that way. That's when the lessons were really learned. Not when he was unsouled. Spike has now somehow lost his soul and because of that he's lost the clarity he gained with having a soul. And as far as reflecting on things you believe he learned while souled..say you're right and that he did learn some things while unsouled...we've been shown with Angel/Angelus and later with human Darla/Vamp Darla, that the unsouled don't really care about how they felt while souled. They think differently because they've lost the moral compass. So I'm not seeing the problem with this storyline. It's fairly consistent with what we've been shown concerning soul loss. Heck, even Buffy began to think differently when Cathy was trying to suck her soul out. And really, does anyone think that Spike will stay unsouledl? I seriously doubt that he will.
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 30, 2010 19:38:34 GMT -5
Wait...so when and how did Spike lose is soul? lol.
|
|
BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
|
Post by BlueJay on Jul 30, 2010 22:11:24 GMT -5
Wait...so when and how did Spike lose is soul? lol. It's revealed by a soul eater that Spike has no soul in 35# as a twist-ending. Mariah Huehner confirmed this in an interview. As of now, that's all everyone knows on the matter.
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 30, 2010 23:32:15 GMT -5
^^^ Ok.. I am such a big 'Season 2' Spike fan and I really wish to see more of that side of him again, but even without his soul he would just turn into 'season 5' Spike again. I guess Willow will be helping getting his soul back?
|
|
raith
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 22
|
Post by raith on Aug 1, 2010 21:24:56 GMT -5
Unsouled Spike through making the Buffybot, was shown once again how important real is. Just look at how he reviled the thing after losing what was real, Buffy. He couldn't stand to be in the same room as it in Bargaining. Ha! See Maggie already ably handled that one. Emmie and Maggie: If I posted how much I disliked Season 8 as much as you dislike the Angel ongoing...I would never get to sleep. I dont know how you get the energy to be so consistantly negative. Isn't it easier not to be?....you don't enjoy it - we get it. Is there anyway we can discuss other parts of the ongoing that isn't Spike or how much Willingham is hated? I just don't see the need to keep bringing it up or harping on about it. I don't do it in the Buffy thread because I just let the people who enjoy it get on with it...could you consider giving the rest of us that courtesy? It must get so frustrating and tiring being so negative about it... *claps* Amen man, Amen. I agree that Willingham hasn't fully captured the essences of the characters we all know and love but some people are going too far to say Angel is now down right unreadable. No way that this arc is worse than Aftermath. Sure the characterizations of the cast aren't as good as it should be but the story is intriguing and always keeps me waiting for the next issue. I respect everyone's opinions because everyone is entitled to them and being a forum and all, though its getting harder and harder just hearing constant negative criticizms towards BW's arc. Is everything now is as good as ATF? Hell no! But it's very entertaining to me still and I'll keep reading Angel; also I can't wait for the new writer(s). I can understand why people are upset yet but this arc isnt' even done. Don't get me started on how Buffy S8 is such a cluster**** now, that I'm almost at the point where I don't care what happens to the scoobies. Yet, I'm waiting for Joss to finish S8 and then make my final judgement. IMO, S8 was doing great up until the identity of Twilight was revealed. So people should relax (tranquilo) and wait til the smoke clears on BW's run. I'd have more to say about Spike's "soul" and what not but I dont' have a computer anymore. Its's a hassle to type on an Android. Not bad for someone who is typing on a small phone screen huh? Btw, Did anyone catch one of the warriors of the Jaro Hull mentioning to the cops that Connor was "Prince" of the forethcoming "Restoration"? I found that interesting considering what's going on Buffy now.
|
|