patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Oct 7, 2010 17:36:33 GMT -5
Also, I don't really get the whole "SPIKE IS EVERYWHERE!" thing. There were months when he wasn't in either ANGEL or BUFFY. Angel is in as much now as Spike is. He's in his own title, in Buffy, and in Spike's title. Spike is in all of the same, though he's leaving ANGEL once SPIKE starts.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on Oct 7, 2010 18:17:55 GMT -5
I quite like the art in this issue. It's certainly not brilliant but it's loose and cartoony and pleasant to look at for the most part. Some panels do look badly rushed though. Lol, imagine this was the actual death of Connor, I'd be raging. Angel's son killed off in a crappy non-canon comic.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Oct 7, 2010 18:24:41 GMT -5
It's not crappy. It's well written. It's been so since Willingham has been off the book. Holy WOW that was condescending and disrespectful.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Oct 8, 2010 21:00:41 GMT -5
It's not crappy. It's well written. It's been so since Willingham has been off the book. Holy WOW that was condescending and disrespectful. Pat, we usually get on well so I'm really not trying to get into a fight here, but just because you treat everyone at IDW like they're the second coming of Jesus doesn't mean I have to. I get that you're friendly with some of the staff there but I feel no obligation to spare their feelings. I paid £4 for their product and I can be condescending and disrespectful toward it if I want. "Well-written"? Subjective much? There has been a slight improvement in quality since Willingham "left" but I'm still not 100% impressed with the book. The dialogue doesn't feel like the real McCoy to me. I know Mariah Huehner tried to justify Illyria's lines as character development, but I don't buy her change in behaviour. I don't believe the God King of the Primordium would suddenly become this meek, eager-to-please lapdog. In AtF and Only Human she showed character development but she still sounded like Illyria. It's not just her... the characterisation and dialogue is weak across the board. Say what you like about Season Eight (and it has it's problems) but the dialogue feels authentically Whedony for the most part. Angel currently feels like acceptable ancillary material to me. It's not bad, just... mediocre. And I think Connor deserves better than to die in a mediocre, ancillary comic. It'd be like Dawn dying in one of those old Dark Horse comics, it's laughable. And for the record, I don't think I was being that disrespectful. I was defending the issue's art, for one thing, which is more than some people have done. If you want to pull people up for being disrespectful, how about those who treated Aftermath like toilet paper (even though it wasn't much worse than this).
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Oct 8, 2010 21:47:05 GMT -5
Pat, we usually get on well so I'm really not trying to get into a fight here, but just because you treat everyone at IDW like they're the second coming of Jesus doesn't mean I have to. Right, like... Armstrong, Willingham, whatever the Aftermath's artists name was... Right. But... wait, not at all. I gave all those books bad reviews. Don't assume I don't judge on quality. It's not treating someone "like the second coming of Jesus," because if that was the case I'd simply be skeptical of them and kinda creeped out. I respect and enjoy the writing of the ones that write well, and the art of the ones that draw well. To suggest it's anything else is silly and jump-to-conclusion...sy. We get on fine, for sure, but it's kind of presumptious and annoying for you to assume that about me. You sure can. Just thought it seemed kind of above you to refer to something as, "some crappy non-canon comic." Seems kind of elitist, which is something I didn't really peg you as. Why is left in quoty fingers? He's Elvised. Hyperbole much? Saying "please" to someone who has been intergral to her emotional evolution makes her a lapdog? I don't think the issue was perfect either (the Star Trek bit made question marks appear above my head. It's not a Trek reference, it's a common saying)... but that's super hyperbolic. AtF, yeah. I thought "Only Human" was pretty bad. Lobdell's work wasn't at all Jesusy. Disagree. Does the characterization? Or tone? Or consistency? I've liked recent issues... a lot. 37 is the best Buffyverse comic we've had since... maybe since ANGEL #23. But as a whole, Season Eight is lacking in a major, major way. My justification? "Retreat" happened. And that's just a start. Again, though. #37 was... awesome. So, so awesome. Which I didn't expect it to be, considering who was co-writing. I didn't really get "mediocre" from "crappy," but maybe you were in the heat of the moment? No, it's not at all like that. These comics are being considered in the plotting of Season Eight, according to both Allie and Ryall. The old Dark Horse comics are pushed to the side. Also, the difference in quality is like comparing "Buffy" to "Charmed." The dichotomy between this and the original comment you made is something to behold. Again, as you said, we get on fine. You are a gentleman and maybe even a scholar. But I super don't understand your take on the comics. I guess that shows how folks can take really different things from books. But I think "Aftermath" is not what I'd call good. The comics now, to me, feel that the show. That felt like a different and kind of uneven new series that had nothing to do with Angel.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Oct 8, 2010 21:47:47 GMT -5
You don't think calling it "crappy" is disrespectful? I like you, Paul, but it kinda was.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
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Post by Smashed on Oct 8, 2010 22:05:18 GMT -5
Also, I don't really get the whole "SPIKE IS EVERYWHERE!" thing. There were months when he wasn't in either ANGEL or BUFFY. Angel is in as much now as Spike is. He's in his own title, in Buffy, and in Spike's title. Spike is in all of the same, though he's leaving ANGEL once SPIKE starts. I've not been following the Angel series as closely as I follow Buffy, but the issues that I'd picked up all pretty much have Spike. Which was fine to me, because I prefer Spike on Angel. However, I rolled my eyes and gave a when he appeared in Buffy. And yes, Angel is in both, but Angel rarely made appearances in Buffy. He only made 5 present day physical appearances in BtVS the series after he left in season 3. Spike was a huge character in s4 (which I liked him in), s5, s6, s7, and Angel s1. Then he went to After the Fall, which I was okay with. Then he had Spike After The Fall, more of the Angel series, back in Buffy, AND is getting his own series for IDW. Maybe it just seems like he's been featured on overkill because he's been a regular character in BTVS for 4 years and Angel one. Really, I know that he's a cash cow because he's so popular, but he's appeared in far more series than any other character that didn't have a television series of their own, but were still main characters.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
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Post by BlueJay on Oct 8, 2010 23:31:05 GMT -5
Well I read the issue. I can see both sides. The comic is in no way crappy. But it's not great either. The comic feels like an episode, written pretty well and the story is very intriguing. There's some offness there, but nowhere near the offness of #28-33. The art has a cartoon-y feel, but it's not bad. I applaud Elena for being able to maintain a fluid pace and capture the likenesses. So I was happy with the finished product, but I am still waiting for the "blow me away" moment, which I hope the new arc will bring me.
For those of you who wanted to know what happens, here's a detailed summary of the issueAfter finding Connor's cell phone outside of the Hyperion, Angel calls the Sisterhood of Jaru Hull by posing as a contest winner. He is able to keep the connection open long enough for Spike to trace the address, but not without Spike making fun of Angel's undercover story. With Connor being missing and Spike possibly being soulless, the snarky comment infuriates Angel and he attacks Spike. Spike declares that he indeed still has his soul--he can feel it--but he demands that Angel not take out his aggression on him. Illyria steps in and attempts to calm Spike down. Laura and Polyphemus enter the room and declare that they may be able to determine Spike's soul problem. Illyria states that they need to seek vengeance for Dez as she was an honorable companion to which Angel responds that the team needs to focus on finding Connor first. Angel asks Illyria to accompany him, but Illyria suggests to stay behind in case Spike turns on Laura, noting that she and Spike have "history" together. Laura advises Illyria that she can handle Spike on her own.
Meanwhile, Connor is held prisoner by the Sisterhood and is tied down in what seems to be an old warehouse. The Sisterhood's intentions are revealed: the require Connor's blood to be ingested by their swords to become stronger as part of a sacrifice. Ragda is the first to plunge her sword into Connor's abdomen...the other Sisters follow suit.
Back at the hotel, Laura and Polyphemus bounce theories off each other to Spike's bemusement--he tells them how they act like an old married couple. The distracting comment leads to Laura proposing a plausible theory: When Spike was non corporeal during his first few months at Wolfram & Hart, a parasite may have latched onto his soul at the time. The parasite can lay dormant for years and may have been awakened due to LA's time shift and the noticeable change in the supernatural world. This accounts for Spike's recent "lack of judgment" and explains why the Soul Eater wasn't able to detect Spike's soul--it was merely corrupted. Spike is eager to get the parasite removed but Laura asks Spike to sign some release forms first.
The blood ritual is complete and Connor's body lays drained. The Sisters comment that if they waited a bit longer, Connor may have survived, but they disregard his death as they can now assume complete protection over LA with their new power. Angel uses his cell phone to call the Sisterhood again and convinces them to seek out a demon nest 40 minutes away from the warehouse. When the Sisterhood departs, Angel and Illyria proceed to their rescue mission, not knowing about the ritual that has taken place. The final scene shows that Connor's body is healing itself.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Oct 9, 2010 12:02:35 GMT -5
Right, like... Armstrong, Willingham, whatever the Aftermath's artists name was... Right. But... wait, not at all. I gave all those books bad reviews. Don't assume I don't judge on quality. It's not treating someone "like the second coming of Jesus," because if that was the case I'd simply be skeptical of them and kinda creeped out. I respect and enjoy the writing of the ones that write well, and the art of the ones that draw well. To suggest it's anything else is silly and jump-to-conclusion...sy. We get on fine, for sure, but it's kind of presumptious and annoying for you to assume that about me. I apologise for being presumptious and annoying, I was annoyed by your comment and my reaction was overly personal. You do seem to have some favouritism towards IDW which comes through in your reviews and posts but my reply was inappropiate. Sorry. You sure can. Just thought it seemed kind of above you to refer to something as, "some crappy non-canon comic." Seems kind of elitist, which is something I didn't really peg you as. I'm pretty elitist when it comes to canon. I find it hard not to be of the opinion that canon > non-canon. It's more about the quality though. "Music of the Spheres" was vague/non-canon but it was such a good send off to Lorne that I accepted it without question. The Angel series... not so much. Connor deserves better than this (not that I think he's really dead). Why is left in quoty fingers? He's Elvised. I find his quiet disappearance from the book rather suspicious. I think he was either fired for his bad writing and/or bad attitude, or left in a huff because of Dark Horse. That's just my totally unfounded speculation though. I couldn't resist the bitchy quote marks. Hyperbole much? Saying "please" to someone who has been intergral to her emotional evolution makes her a lapdog? I don't think the issue was perfect either (the Star Trek bit made question marks appear above my head. It's not a Trek reference, it's a common saying)... but that's super hyperbolic. It's not just the "please" line (which actually could have been quite significant if she was written better in general), it's her whole demeanor. Her "concern" for Laura, her grief for Dez (who she had barely, if any, interaction with), even her body language (which is the art's fault). She feels diluted and very un-Illyria. Compare against Only Human's Illyria, who showed signs of emotional growth, but was still assertive and unapologetic: Illyria: As you know, I'm not accustomed to explaining myself to humans.Gunn: You don't have to...Illyria: I am talking.Little lines like that, the contempt and dismissiveness dripping from her voice, is what makes her sound like Illyria. That's been lacking from recent Angel issues. AtF, yeah. I thought "Only Human" was pretty bad. Lobdell's work wasn't at all Jesusy. It was over long and slightly dull, and I don't think there was as much character development as there needed to be, but the character voices were pretty strong and the artwork was gorgeous. Disagree right back. Does the characterization? Or tone? Or consistency? I've liked recent issues... a lot. 37 is the best Buffyverse comic we've had since... maybe since ANGEL #23. But as a whole, Season Eight is lacking in a major, major way. My justification? "Retreat" happened. And that's just a start. Oh I've hated S8 lately. I think my review of #36 consisted of "f***ing end already". Now that's disrespectful. But for all it's flaws, at least it's relevant... there's a certain legitimacy about it. Unlike Angel, which has felt like filler since AtF ended. And I think the characterization, tone, and consistency of S8 has been MUCH better than the Angel books, even if it's not lived up to either of the TV shows. Again, though. #37 was... awesome. So, so awesome. Which I didn't expect it to be, considering who was co-writing. Totally agree, #37 was a lovely surprise. What a difference some one-on-one character moments can make, as opposed to ridiculous, OTT plot twists and cheesy gags. I didn't really get "mediocre" from "crappy," but maybe you were in the heat of the moment? It was more like exaggeration to make my point; that Connor deserves better than to be killed in a comic of this quality. No, it's not at all like that. These comics are being considered in the plotting of Season Eight, according to both Allie and Ryall. The old Dark Horse comics are pushed to the side. Also, the difference in quality is like comparing "Buffy" to "Charmed." Yeah, I know there's some co-ordination, but I doubt that includes letting IDW kill off arguably the most important member of Angel's supporting cast. Maybe I'm wrong, it would explain Connor's absence during the Twilight debacle... but I hope not. The dichotomy between this and the original comment you made is something to behold. The original quote was two things: a) a genuine attempt to defend the art of this issue, which I don't mind and seems unpopular with everyone else, and b) an intentionally bitchy joke which reflects some of my feelings on the issue, but isn't the extent of them. Again, as you said, we get on fine. You are a gentleman and maybe even a scholar. But I super don't understand your take on the comics. I guess that shows how folks can take really different things from books. But I think "Aftermath" is not what I'd call good. The comics now, to me, feel that the show. That felt like a different and kind of uneven new series that had nothing to do with Angel. I found Aftermath a flawed-but-ambitious attempt to move the Angel series forward (new location, new cast). The writing and artwork were certainly not perfect, but I respected some of the ideas. The current comics are much the same to me... good ideas executed in a disappointing manner. Neither do the show justice. You don't think calling it "crappy" is disrespectful? I like you, Paul, but it kinda was. Maybe it was, but like I say, I paid £4 for the comic so I don't owe IDW any tact. I didn't spew hate about how the writers should burn for their sins, or how I hate Scott Allie because he's not a Spuffy, I just think the issue is kind of crappy. Not terrible, just a bit crappy. I didn't hold back when reviewing your issues Brian, and you can be sure if the new Spike book is crappy, I'll tell you so to your face (well, your avatar). Anything else would be dishonest.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Oct 11, 2010 17:42:36 GMT -5
"You are a gentleman and maybe even a scholar" <3
Wait.... so what is going on with Connor?
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Oct 11, 2010 18:48:24 GMT -5
"You are a gentleman and maybe even a scholar" <3 Wait.... so what is going on with Connor? He's dead but not dead. The Sisterhood of Jaro Hull stabbed him numerous times for a weird ritual and left him to bleed to death. Except his wounds mysteriously healed.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Oct 11, 2010 20:04:45 GMT -5
"You are a gentleman and maybe even a scholar" <3 Wait.... so what is going on with Connor? RE: summary After finding Connor's cell phone outside of the Hyperion, Angel calls the Sisterhood of Jaru Hull by posing as a contest winner. He is able to keep the connection open long enough for Spike to trace the address, but not without Spike making fun of Angel's undercover story. With Connor being missing and Spike possibly being soulless, the snarky comment infuriates Angel and he attacks Spike. Spike declares that he indeed still has his soul--he can feel it--but he demands that Angel not take out his aggression on him. Illyria steps in and attempts to calm Spike down. Laura and Polyphemus enter the room and declare that they may be able to determine Spike's soul problem. Illyria states that they need to seek vengeance for Dez as she was an honorable companion to which Angel responds that the team needs to focus on finding Connor first. Angel asks Illyria to accompany him, but Illyria suggests to stay behind in case Spike turns on Laura, noting that she and Spike have "history" together. Laura advises Illyria that she can handle Spike on her own.
Meanwhile, Connor is held prisoner by the Sisterhood and is tied down in what seems to be an old warehouse. The Sisterhood's intentions are revealed: the require Connor's blood to be ingested by their swords to become stronger as part of a sacrifice. Ragda is the first to plunge her sword into Connor's abdomen...the other Sisters follow suit.
Back at the hotel, Laura and Polyphemus bounce theories off each other to Spike's bemusement--he tells them how they act like an old married couple. The distracting comment leads to Laura proposing a plausible theory: When Spike was non corporeal during his first few months at Wolfram & Hart, a parasite may have latched onto his soul at the time. The parasite can lay dormant for years and may have been awakened due to LA's time shift and the noticeable change in the supernatural world. This accounts for Spike's recent "lack of judgment" and explains why the Soul Eater wasn't able to detect Spike's soul--it was merely corrupted. Spike is eager to get the parasite removed but Laura asks Spike to sign some release forms first.
The blood ritual is complete and Connor's body lays drained. The Sisters comment that if they waited a bit longer, Connor may have survived, but they disregard his death as they can now assume complete protection over LA with their new power. Angel uses his cell phone to call the Sisterhood again and convinces them to seek out a demon nest 40 minutes away from the warehouse. When the Sisterhood departs, Angel and Illyria proceed to their rescue mission, not knowing about the ritual that has taken place. The final scene shows that Connor's body is healing itself.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Oct 12, 2010 5:13:30 GMT -5
"You are a gentleman and maybe even a scholar" <3 Wait.... so what is going on with Connor? He's dead but not dead. The Sisterhood of Jaro Hull stabbed him numerous times for a weird ritual and left him to bleed to death. Except his wounds mysteriously healed. Oh, cool thanks lol. Paul + Jay Sounds kind of cool me thinks But I will have to see with TPB.
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Post by henzINNIT on Oct 14, 2010 16:49:28 GMT -5
You don't think calling it "crappy" is disrespectful? I like you, Paul, but it kinda was. Really? Crappy is a word I reserve for Buffy season 6 and I'd say it to Joss' face, with the deepest respect ...I'm guessing we wouldn't be friends.
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Post by Emmie on Nov 19, 2010 15:28:25 GMT -5
Paul, this one's for you:
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Nov 19, 2010 16:23:27 GMT -5
Paul, this one's for you: Lol, thanks.
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