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Post by Wyndam on Nov 11, 2010 0:04:22 GMT -5
Haha! I love Brian.
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Maggie
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 48
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Post by Maggie on Nov 11, 2010 0:37:30 GMT -5
I trust that's a joke. If Joss were to hire Lynch for season 9, it'd be a signal that he's not taking the project seriously in any kind of creative/artistic sense. Which would be a bummer, because as uneven as it's been, season 8 has been all kinds of fun to think about. AtF is junk food in comparison -- yummy, but entirely forgettable.
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veiriti
Potential Slayer
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Post by veiriti on Nov 11, 2010 4:43:57 GMT -5
I hope is not a joke!!! It's great news to see that Brian will be doing the Dark Horse Spike series! He’s the BEST author for Spike!
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leyki
Common Vampire
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Post by leyki on Nov 11, 2010 5:00:01 GMT -5
I hope is not a joke!!! It's great news to see that Brian will be doing the Dark Horse Spike series! He’s the BEST author for Spike! I wouldn't say that he is the best, he does mistakes, Spike doesn't speak like that. But at least he loves the character, that's for sure, *whistle mode on* unlike some others *whistle mode off* With Joss guidance and supervision, i think there won't be a problem.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Nov 11, 2010 9:48:49 GMT -5
I posted a whole thing, but that's kinda lame.
I think this is my goodbye to Slay Alive forums. It's been fun while it's been positive. Hope those who read my blog (hey there, you three!) still enjoy it. And kudos to those who respect good and dedicated writers.
Hasta.
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Post by henzINNIT on Nov 11, 2010 10:45:42 GMT -5
Am I missing something here? I trust that's a joke. If Joss were to hire Lynch for season 9, it'd be a signal that he's not taking the project seriously in any kind of creative/artistic sense. Which would be a bummer, because as uneven as it's been, season 8 has been all kinds of fun to think about. AtF is junk food in comparison -- yummy, but entirely forgettable. Can't disagree more. Season 8 has been a disaster. It's a saving grace that many never took it seriously.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 11, 2010 10:50:33 GMT -5
I trust that's a joke. If Joss were to hire Lynch for season 9, it'd be a signal that he's not taking the project seriously in any kind of creative/artistic sense. Which would be a bummer, because as uneven as it's been, season 8 has been all kinds of fun to think about. AtF is junk food in comparison -- yummy, but entirely forgettable. Can't disagree more. Season 8 has been a disaster. It's a saving grace that many never took it seriously. [/quote]AMEN! I was telling my girlfriend the current storyline in Buffy and she summed it up quite succinctly-"Embarressing"
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Nov 11, 2010 11:05:09 GMT -5
I posted a whole thing, but that's kinda lame. I think this is my goodbye to Slay Alive forums. It's been fun while it's been positive. Hope those who read my blog (hey there, you three!) still enjoy it. And kudos to those who respect good and dedicated writers. Hasta. Pat, I always enjoy hearing what you have to say, and I think you bring something to the Comics discussion on this forum. Your insights will be missed.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 11, 2010 11:36:02 GMT -5
Please refrain from people bashing. It would save me a lot of Aspirin. Thank you. Critique of a writer/artist's work is cool, as long as it's constructive.
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Maggie
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Posts: 48
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Post by Maggie on Nov 11, 2010 11:59:46 GMT -5
Constructive criticism: There are no layers to Lynch's work. He's got a lot of fans, but you aren't going to see analysis about the big themes in play. He missed the dark complexity of NFA and that's flattened his work going forward. I also think he's overrated in terms of his ability to capture Spike's voice, which often bleeds through with Lynch-isms, and especially a Lynchian brand of humor. How could Brian do better? Read the series more deeply. Check out some of the great meta produced about it. Think harder.
Or, just decide that's not the sort of writer he is, and stick to the sorts of projects that suit him. Which was my point here. I'm not saying Lynch should quit writing; I'm saying he's a bad fit for the DH comics.
I can see that lots of folks like him. His characterization of Spike doesn't do anything for me, but people think it's fun. That's all good. I hope he keeps writing.
I just don't think he's the sort of writer that belongs in the DH comics, which I see as more ambitious (if also more uneven). Love them or hate them, there's a lot to say about season 8. Season 8 asks hard questions about heroes and their relationship to humans; the knife edge problem of being extraordinary; the nature of storytelling, fantasies and dreams as a way of mediating reality; and a ton of other things. AtF is about what happened after NFA (assuming that NFA wasn't nearly as interesting as it was). Two very different projects with very different ambitions.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 11, 2010 12:04:47 GMT -5
Thank you. I wish this had been your initial post. It still may not have been popular, but it's definitely better articulated.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 11, 2010 12:30:33 GMT -5
I like Brian's Spike and Angel work, and would be very happy to see him do a series at Dark Horse (preferably Spike) as part of season 9.
Personally, I see the "Lynchisms" in these comics as a strength... Spike is the kind of character who could easily get tiresome if he's written straight down the middle of the Mutant Enemy page every time we see him, especially considering how frequently he's used.
His new characters have been quite refreshing... especially George, Beck, Tok, Jeremy, Non, and Ms. Mainyu. And he's the only Angelverse writer (including ME ones) who has ever written Connor as a character I can root for.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 11, 2010 14:28:44 GMT -5
I just don't think he's the sort of writer that belongs in the DH comics, which I see as more ambitious (if also more uneven). Love them or hate them, there's a lot to say about season 8. Season 8 asks hard questions about heroes and their relationship to humans; the knife edge problem of being extraordinary; the nature of storytelling, fantasies and dreams as a way of mediating reality; and a ton of other things. AtF is about what happened after NFA (assuming that NFA wasn't nearly as interesting as it was). Two very different projects with very different ambitions. Maggie-Jaysus can I borrow your version of the Buffy comics?Because the version I have read comes across as having a writer who has completely lost touch with the verse and the characters.A writer who has nothing new to say about the characters and instead reverts them to parodies of who they were and has made a parody of his whole universe. I wanna read the version you seem to have read!
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Post by wenxina on Nov 11, 2010 17:06:42 GMT -5
I just don't think he's the sort of writer that belongs in the DH comics, which I see as more ambitious (if also more uneven). Love them or hate them, there's a lot to say about season 8. Season 8 asks hard questions about heroes and their relationship to humans; the knife edge problem of being extraordinary; the nature of storytelling, fantasies and dreams as a way of mediating reality; and a ton of other things. AtF is about what happened after NFA (assuming that NFA wasn't nearly as interesting as it was). Two very different projects with very different ambitions. Maggie-Jaysus can I borrow your version of the Buffy comics?Because the version I have read comes across as having a writer who has completely lost touch with the verse and the characters.A writer who has nothing new to say about the characters and instead reverts them to parodies of who they were and has made a parody of his whole universe. I wanna read the version you seem to have read! Instead of the combative tone of this post, it may be more conducive to ask for the links to the metas that Maggie talked about. They might offer a new and more favorable perspective on the whole matter of S8.
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Maggie
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 48
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Post by Maggie on Nov 11, 2010 17:07:26 GMT -5
Maggie-Jaysus can I borrow your version of the Buffy comics?Because the version I have read comes across as having a writer who has completely lost touch with the verse and the characters.A writer who has nothing new to say about the characters and instead reverts them to parodies of who they were and has made a parody of his whole universe. I wanna read the version you seem to have read! Sure. Start with the premise that Joss didn't swallow a stupid pill. Then ask why things are off (because they are). It's been clear that something was wrong with the entire 'verse. We now find out what that is -- the seed of wonder, which is the artistic creative vision that takes the demons and darkness of human life and creates a new world that allows us to deal with it has a shelf life. In other words, the soul of the world is exhausted. The whole thing is a commentary on story-telling. When the vision gets exhausted things go stale (read a bit fanficcy) or worse (read Twilight becomes the vision, not the complexity of BtVS). People want things from the story it was never meant to deliver and when they get it, it literally rips a tear in the verse and demons come pouring in. That's just one angle. You could also just pick up LWH and read it closely and discover that every line is thick with meaning and resonances. Or you could focus on the powerful dramatic moments that have been coughed up. Faith's predicament at the end of #8, for example. There are other ways. Above all, just recognize that it's an ambitious story. Succeed or fail, it's a story that's trying to push beyond the usual boundaries. I expect that from the Whedonverse, ergo me defending it from writers like Lynch who play it very, very safe. Season 8 is harder to read than AtF, but far, far more rewarding. I think my mistake with AtF was to assume that it would repay careful reading, only to find out that it really doesn't. We are in a similar predicament, you and I. I read Lynch expecting Joss; and you've read Joss expecting Lynch. That would be why we dislike the works we dislike as much as we do.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 11, 2010 17:49:16 GMT -5
Maggie - what you look for in a story and what I look for in a story are completely different. You look to extrct meta. I look for emotional truth, a good story that makes sense, and to follow the characters that I have loved for nearly 10 years now. Not facsimiles of who they were back circa season 3 of Buffy...but who they developed into.
You hypothesis above that season 8 is "a commentary on story-telling"...well that just reads to me as reaching for a way to convince yourself that the story makes sense, and is not a complete mess.Joss has a habit of throwing in things like the 'Seed of Wonder' (don't get me started on that name) or the Scythe, as lazy narrative devices whether they make sense or not. He also did it with the Circle of the Black Thorn on Angel-but at least he had the excuse there that the show got cancelled and had to wrap things up quickly.He had no such excuse with Buffy.
It started out so well.Up until 'Wolves at the Gate' I was a fan, and really enjoyed it - the Faith arc was wonderful,,,and not written by Joss....But with MechaDawn(the first of many jump the shark moments) the series went downhill and has never recovered.For every 'Powerful dramatic moments' you may have, you have the many many illogical moments that have been brushed over.Warren as the First cos he died....(oh no wait he didn't- 'Oops'says Joss)-being the first one. Also the Riley storyline...the Angel strory line...the Spike getting a spaceship full of Alien Bugs storyline...the Master being back even though he was killed...the Buffy as bank robber storyline. All just thrown in there, with no explanation or reason. It was like he was throwing ideas at a wall and whatever stuck went into the comic whether they made sense or not, and the rest fell to the ground.
Then you have the fact that he has the two leads of his Buffyverse series, have sex....flying sex ...flying sex in space no less...and have them give birth to a new dimension.
Read that again.
Read it again and remember this is the man who gave us Becoming,Graduation Day,The gift,the Body, Once More With Feeling.
He wrote all those amazing things and then turns around and turns Angel into a masked superpowered hero/villain who appears to have forgotten his own son THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD TO HIM to go back to being Buffys lovesick puppy WITH ABSOLUTELY NO EXPLANATION OR REASON and we are just meant to buy it...BECAUSE IT'S JOSS.
So don't pretend to me that Season 8 is some great success because it 'a story that's trying to push beyond the usual boundaries'. It is so far from what Buffy was that it is unrecognisable now and as I have said - it had become a parody of a once great story.
I find that incredibly patronising. I don't read Lynch expecting Joss. I dont read anything expecting Joss. I read these expecting a good story that makes sense, and that is true to the shows that it follows. I have read AtF over and over and get more out of it each time I do.
AtF is closer to the spirit of the show and more emotionally true to the characters than I could have dared hope for. Every character stayed true to themselves...while growing in new and unexpected ways.It was epic without being OTT, it was fun while not being flippant, and it was so rewarding in every way to me.
I'm glad that you find such depth and enjoyment in Season 8 Maggie - but it is insulting to the fans of AtF when you dismiss it as less than Season 8 just because you do not find it rewarding. How bout all the people that have?
You may have not gotten what you wanted out of it...but by God I know I did.
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Maggie
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 48
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Post by Maggie on Nov 11, 2010 23:24:05 GMT -5
I find that incredibly patronising. And I find most of what you write hostile and dismissive. You asked what I saw and I told you. You aren't willing to give it a thought, and your rant has persuaded me that you aren't about to give it a second's thought. I told you we were after different things. Your reply proves it. And that just proves my original point. Adding Lynch to DH as a writer would require that the whole nature of story telling be changed to something other than what it is. You want them to be IDW, and I want them to be DH. If you want to persuade me that AtF is worth the paper it's printed on, point me to the meta that shows that it's anything more than a "here's what happens next" story. You can't even claim it has emotional power because the reset button (which was 100% predictable) eradicated anything dramatic that might have happened.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 12, 2010 0:40:03 GMT -5
This really doesn't seem to be going anywhere good right now. If there are ill feelings of the personal nature, I'd prefer that they be taken off the forum. Stick to discussing the text instead of slinging personal attacks. Thanks.
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Post by angeliclestat on Nov 12, 2010 10:08:11 GMT -5
I find that incredibly patronising. And I find most of what you write hostile and dismissive. You asked what I saw and I told you. You aren't willing to give it a thought, and your rant has persuaded me that you aren't about to give it a second's thought. Apologies if you thought I was being dismissive - but that was not my intention. However I find you are reading too much into a text which does not deserve reading into. I had not even heard of 'meta' until you kept repeating it over and over on various sites. Of the 44,000 (on average) that read Buffy every month at the moment...how many do you really think know or care what meta is. All they(and I) want is a good story which makes sense, is true to the show and the characters, and does not make a mockery of it and the reader. We are not getting that.If you have to read into things which are not there, then maybe there is a problem with the source text. I can see a parallel with how Shakespeare is taught in schools.I love Shakespeare - always have. I always enjoyed the analysis of the texts, and various interpretations of what the language meant. Because it is written in a poetical and archaic way, it is somewhat required to understand for modern readers. However when I was in school I remember many of my classmates make the valid point that how much of the analysis is vaild - were scholars reading things into the text that wasn't there? If Shakespeare read some of the - let's call it meta - that people have written over the years, I wonder would he laugh and think 'I didn't mean that when I wrote it, I was just writing a play'. So your idea that Season 8 is commentary on storytelling may be perfectly valid for you...but I honestly do not think that Joss Whedon meant it that way when he wrote it. I could say that it is a commentary of the spawning habits of the North Atlantic eel, and that would be as valid if I made up enough points to back it up. But it does not make the Season any better. You completely ignored the points I brought up about the inconsistancies in the story. Joss had 4 years to tell the story, yet Scott Allie says that they didn't enough time to explain: 1- How Angel turned from a champion of the helpless, to Twilight 2- How Spike ended up alone on a spaceship with alien bugs (they had to get IDW to tell that story) 3- How Spike and Angel went from a place of mutual respect, to seemingly being at odds with one another. 4- How the gang ended up at a castle in Scotland with all this state of the art equipment (yes I know Buffy robbed banks - but is that a good explanation?). Who built it? Oh wait it doesn't matter - cos it looks cool, which seems to be the watchword of the season. 5- How a major plot point at the end of Season 6 (Warren being skinned alive and killed by Willow) was 'forgotton' by Joss. 6- How the Master, who was killed and his bones were ground to dust is back and under Sunnydale for God knows how long..oh wait it was the 'Seed of Wonder'. How conveniant. A Macguffin that can explain anything away. No matter what happens...it was the 'Seed of Wonder'. Lazy lazy writing. So have you brushed all those (and many more) flaws under the rug because Joss was doing a play on bad writing? Well if you are right then bravo Joss....because he succeeded. It is bad writing. Maggie- I don't read meta. I don't write meta. I have no interest in meta. I get my enjoyment from the story - which is strong enough and full of enough greatness to satisfy me. Now this tells me all I need to know. The fact that you still think that it was a 'reset' shows you have no understanding of After the Fall. On Angel (and Buffy) it was made absolutely clear that time works differently in alternate dimenstions. Here are a few examples: 1- when Buffy sent Angel to hell, he was there for approximatly 100 years, yet was back on earth a few months later 2- When Buffy went to LA at the beginning of Season 3, the dimension that Ken was sending the homeless kids to? They were there for 50 or 60 years and came back to LA as old people a few days later in earth time. 3- On Angel the most obvious example is Connor. He was sent to Quartoth as a baby, but a couple of weeks on Earth time, he was back as a 16/17 year old So there is a textual precedence for what happened in AtF. The population of LA were taken out of their timeline and sent to this hell dimension. A few months had passed in hell. When Angel sacrificed himself he knew that the Senior Partners wanted to keep him alive, so they sent him back to just the point (on Earth time) that LA was sent to Hell. Everything that happened in HellA happened It was not like in 'I will remember you' and time was turned back and nobody but Angel remembered. Everybody that was in HellA was in HellA. It all happened. There was no reset. -Angel was human and died to save LA -Wesley was a ghost and stuck between worlds -Gunn was a vampire and slaughtered score of people -Illyria was tormented by the memories of Fred -Connor was killed by Gunn It all happened.And it was all wonderful. ------------------------------------------------- As I said before (without patronising or irony) I am glad you are enjoying season 8. You seem to get a lot out of it and that's great. However ,as I have said, just because you get our enjoyment out of meta, does not mean that everybody else does. When there is so much wrong with the story I cannot get enjoyment from it. I just want the season to be over, so we can move on from it and while I have to accept that the events happened, and will impact on all the characters, I do not have to like it:)
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Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
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Post by Randi Giles on Nov 12, 2010 10:53:48 GMT -5
1- How Angel turned from a champion of the helpless, to Twilight 2- How Spike ended up alone on a spaceship with alien bugs (they had to get IDW to tell that story) 3- How Spike and Angel went from a place of mutual respect, to seemingly being at odds with one another. 4- How the gang ended up at a castle in Scotland with all this state of the art equipment (yes I know Buffy robbed banks - but is that a good explanation?). Who built it? Oh wait it doesn't matter - cos it looks cool, which seems to be the watchword of the season. 5- How a major plot point at the end of Season 6 (Warren being skinned alive and killed by Willow) was 'forgotton' by Joss. 6- How the Master, who was killed and his bones were ground to dust is back and under Sunnydale for God knows how long..oh wait it was the 'Seed of Wonder'. How conveniant. A Macguffin that can explain anything away. No matter what happens...it was the 'Seed of Wonder'. Lazy lazy writing. I'm giving you karma for all of this. I like season 8 but that don't change the fact that all you have listed bugs the heck out of me.
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