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Post by afterthebattle on Nov 1, 2010 16:40:19 GMT -5
I was wondering about this. I mean, if he really did love Connor, then he wouldn't have let Connor believe that he was murdered by Angel, would he? He must have known, what the consequences would be. What do you guys think?
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Nov 1, 2010 20:58:24 GMT -5
I suppose you mean the consequences for Connor?
He must've believed that Angel couldn't possibly be good for Connor, though he pretended to believe the opposite. He must've thought it would be good for Connor to rid himself of any possible attachment to Angel. This dovetailed with his primary motivation, to torment and kill Angel.
I'm watching "Tomorrow" now, AtS 3.22. About 9:50 in, Connor is speaking to Holtz's dead body. He says, "I will do as you taught me. I will cling to the good, and I will lay waste to the evil." If Holtz had been alive to hear that, he would've been pleased. He would've thought, "my deception accomplished its purpose."
If he did not love Connor, that means he spent 15 years or so in hell dimension without any human connection at all. That strikes me as next to impossible. Add the fact that Connor was attached to him. A baby is lovable, a four year old boy is also lovable, even a teenager is lovable. Love must have happened.
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Post by thevampirewithsoul on Nov 1, 2010 23:38:48 GMT -5
Yes I think that Holtz did love Connor, but he hated Angel more. Which led him to using Connor as a tool against Angel.
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Post by blahblah on Nov 2, 2010 0:22:18 GMT -5
I think that Holtz loved Connor but also feared him, because he was the spawn of a vampire
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Nov 3, 2010 21:49:46 GMT -5
If he feared Connor, we don't see any sign of it in his behavior. Do we? After 15 years of living with Connor, and no one else, Holtz should feel he pretty well knows the boy.
Here's a thought. Holtz asked Justine to kill him. He might also have suggested to her the plan of burying Angel in the water.
I just finished Tomorrow, where this happens. See that thread if you like, I have a few pesky problems with that episode.
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bonoferox
Potential Slayer
Never trust a psychic with a doorbell[Mo0:0]
Posts: 106
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Post by bonoferox on Nov 4, 2010 18:40:49 GMT -5
Yes I think that Holtz did love Connor, but he hated Angel more. Which led him to using Connor as a tool against Angel. I agree with this. Holtz was definitely a family man in the days of Angelus and 15 years with Connor would have definitely started a real father and son relationship, even if it was on a pretty demented level that may have been more like a student/teacher relationship most of the time.
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Post by joxerlives on Nov 17, 2010 19:22:57 GMT -5
Yes he did. But that didn't dull his hatred of Angel
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Post by Inappropriate Starches on Nov 18, 2010 1:10:07 GMT -5
Yes I think that Holtz did love Connor, but he hated Angel more. Which led him to using Connor as a tool against Angel. I think that is very well put. I have no doubt that Holtz did love Connor, but he never forgot about his first family, and his pure hatred for Angel, and in the end, it won over his love for Connor.
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