Does a more powerful sire makes stronger vampires?

[exogenesis1203]

I often wonder what define a vampire's power
is it pure age?
looking at the Darla/Angelus/Dru/Spike I often wonder does a more powerful sire create a more powerful vampire , considering all these four originates from the Master
and Holden Webster also seems to be different from other vampire, maybe not more powerful but he certainly got that certain wicked sense of evilness that can be found in the above four vampires

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't think it's just age(but partly). Spike killed his first slayer after years of vampires. And he and Angel seems to be one of the few vampires that could hold their own succesfully against Buffy. I can't remember how well Holden did.

So I'm guessing the line they come from could have something to do with the vampire's power.

I'm also guessing, from the spoilers I've read, that when I've read the rest of season 8 (only read up until issue 35) I'll have more thoughts on this.

[midwesternwatcher]

I'm watching "Conversations With Dead People" right now. Holden seems to be a better fighter than most vampires, but no match for Buffy.

How would we answer this question? Not sure there's enough evidence. My subjective impression is that vampires may become more evil, more committed to the "vampiric life style" or "vampiric way of looking at things", but not stronger. A guess: the strength of a vampire depends mostly on the human body.

[tkts]

Dec 6, 2010 21:12:44 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

I'm watching "Conversations With Dead People" right now. Holden seems to be a better fighter than most vampires, but no match for Buffy.

How would we answer this question? Not sure there's enough evidence. My subjective impression is that vampires may become more evil, more committed to the "vampiric life style" or "vampiric way of looking at things", but not stronger. A guess: the strength of a vampire depends mostly on the human body.

Is that borne out by the vampires we see both before and after transformation, though?

Angel: Well, Liam could have been pretty strong. That's reasonable.

Spike: William seemed pretty wimpy.

Drusilla: Strong as a vampire, but no evidence that she was particularly strong as a human.

On the other hand, some physical abilities do seem to carry over, hence Oz's comment in "Anne" about Andy Hoelich having been on the gymnastics team.

[The Night Lord]

A human's strength has nothing to do with the strength they'll gain as vampire. Darla and Drusilla were wispy women who weren't really all that strong as humans, yet turn them into vampires and they're easily capable of hurling Angel across the room. And Angel ain't light either.

[Skytteflickan88]

@ tkts

Liam was probably not too strong. Sure, he looked fit-ish, but he was a drunk, probably already dying from some STD or liver failure.

[usagianddarien]

(my 2 cents)

I think it does have to do with the sire of the vampire i mean wasn't darla made by the master? then she made others so it makes since that they were powerful. Take Harmony for example she sucks at being a vampire so i wold say whoever sired here was defiantly not from the Master's line.

[BennyTheKey]

^ Harmony sucked at being human too haha. I do think the more powerful the sire the more powerful the vampire though!

[midwesternwatcher]

Remember when Darla, as a human, was looking for a vampire to sire her? I can't remember which episode, but she went to a demon bar, found a random (rather young) vampire who apparently had never turned a human before and actually explained the details. She apparently wasn't picky at all about who sired her. If having a more powerful sire made her a more powerful vampire, wouldn't she have looked for a thoroughbred?

[astranger]

Maybe she was desperate?

Anyway, I do think that a vampires sire has some impact on the power of the vampire him/herself. After all, Darla, Angel, Drusilla and Spike are all more resistant to sunlight than other vampires. The real reason might be just the rule of importance, but it is an interesting idea none the less.

Holden was certainly stronger than other vampires though, this could have been because he learned a martial art, if I remember correctly. So skills as a human do transfer over to the vampire so maybe Holden was a good fighter as a vampire because he was a good fighter as a human.

Alternatively, a vampires upbringing can be an indication of strength. Vampires who are alone, leaderless like most vampires in the series are easily dispatched. But vampires who receive care from their sire are often more powerful, and can take along time to defeat. Angel and Spike are often examples of this, but so is Penn from Somnambulist who was taught by Angelus.

So I think that a vampires power and competence is based on these three factors, their sire's power, the attention their sire gave them and finally their own general competence.

[Randi Giles]

I don't think having a powerful sire does anything for a vampire. I think the only thing that makes vampires strong is age.

[midwesternwatcher]

We're talking about physical strength, right?

Are we assuming that male vampires are stronger than female ones? I don't know that we see any clear evidence on that. All vampires are much stronger than humans, so we can't reason from our experience as humans.

Some vampires seem able to hypnotize people, as the Master did with Buffy, or Drusilla did with Kendra. Can all vampires do that?

What about Dracula? He seems to have powers other vampires don't. How did he get them?

[drgreenevil]

I've always wondered what would happen if a slayer was turned into a vampire.

When a regular person is turned, the demon dramatically ups their strength, senses, etc.
But what would happen if the person (a slayer) already had dramatically upped strength, senses, etc, before they were turned?

Would we have a vampire with herculean strength? Some almost invincibility?
That would make a very interesting story actually. Buffy having to fight a previous slayer now vampire who has basically become She-Hulk.

[wenxina]

Dec 10, 2010 1:13:30 GMT -5 drgreenevil said:

I've always wondered what would happen if a slayer was turned into a vampire.

When a regular person is turned, the demon dramatically ups their strength, senses, etc.
But what would happen if the person (a slayer) already had dramatically upped strength, senses, etc, before they were turned?

Would we have a vampire with herculean strength? Some almost invincibility?
That would make a very interesting story actually. Buffy having to fight a previous slayer now vampire who has basically become She-Hulk.

We do have a thread for this discussion HERE.

[astranger]

We're talking about physical strength, right?

Actually, no.

I'd say things like agility and resilience are also important.

Note that all of the Masters line were in some way 'mentally' superior to put it a crude way.

To go into more detail the Master was capable of mind powers such as hypnosis and on more than one occasion favored trickery and stealth over brute force, most notably when he ambushed Buffy.

Darla was a seductress who knew how to play on people, perhaps best demonstrated in Angel Season 2, but also present in Buffy.

Angelus also engaged in psychological torture and mind games as his mode of attack, and this is a consistent piece of his background. Part of this remains even when he is en-souled and he shows himself to be a skilled manipulator regardless of skill or not.

Drusilla has mental powers like the Master. Her manipulation of Giles in Becoming again shows an ability to get inside someone's head. She also seems to have uncanny insight.

At first Spike seems like he shouldn't fit, thanks to his impetuousness. But in many episodes he shows himself to be a great reader of people, such as in the Yoko Factor. In addition he basically admits that he beat the previous Slayers because he was able to sense their secret death wish.

So the question becomes does the Masters Blood cause this, or enhance it? Or do those of the Masters line seek out those with psychological strength?

[midwesternwatcher]

Of the descendants of the Master we see, Drusilla seems to be the only one who can kill by mesmerizing a victim cobra-like. Merely being a descendant of the Master doesn't seem to help with that. Or did I forget something?

The writers seem to avoid or at least neglect this subject. To settle it, we would need a discussion from Wesley or Giles or somebody, which might be part of Slayer training. But we don't get that.

There seems to be no reason to answer this question, unless it serves to build a good story. Off hand, I can't think of a story line where it would matter. That's one of the things we can do in fanfic.

[Skytteflickan88]

Dec 9, 2010 12:53:50 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

Remember when Darla, as a human, was looking for a vampire to sire her? I can't remember which episode, but she went to a demon bar, found a random (rather young) vampire who apparently had never turned a human before and actually explained the details. She apparently wasn't picky at all about who sired her. If having a more powerful sire made her a more powerful vampire, wouldn't she have looked for a thoroughbred?

Not necassarily.

A) She was desperate.
B) She might not have known that stronger sires make stronger vampires. Or she did know but was desperate enough not to care. Sje just wanted to find someone quick.

So the sire might still have something to do with it.

Dec 9, 2010 20:50:29 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

We're talking about physical strength, right?

When I talk about the power and strength of the sire, I mainly think about body strength, but also about strength of mind. Spike & Angel seems to have a lot of willpower, and seem physically stronger/more able to fight than most other vampires, so I would say "power" includes the whole package.

Are we assuming that male vampires are stronger than female ones? I don't know that we see any clear evidence on that. All vampires are much stronger than humans, so we can't reason from our experience as humans.

If the strength of the vampire partly or mainly depends on the sire, I assume that female vampires with strong sires could easily slay lesser male vampires.

Some vampires seem able to hypnotize people, as the Master did with Buffy, or Drusilla did with Kendra. Can all vampires do that?

Maybe they have the ability to, but it's stronger in some than in others? Like humans seem to be able to use magic in varying degrees, vampires can as well.

What about Dracula? He seems to have powers other vampires don't. How did he get them?

Season 8 spoiler for Wolves at the Gate and Spike vs Dracula:

SPOILER: Click to show

If I remember correctly he had gained his powers somehow. Then a bucnh of other vampires learned how he did it (tricked him when he was drunk, I think) and fought against Buffy. Dracula fought beside Buffy against those others vampires. He made sure he and the other vampires lost this abilities. I can't recall if he lost all powers(being able to turn into a panter, bat and bees, having the power of thrall) or just some, or if it was even said for sure.

How he got them is a mystery, but I like the version presented by the non-canon comic Spike vs Dracula, where Dracula learned all or some of his powers (I forget) from a gypsy.

Dec 10, 2010 2:49:20 GMT -5 astranger said:

Note that all of the Masters line were in some way 'mentally' superior to put it a crude way.

To go into more detail the Master was capable of mind powers such as hypnosis and on more than one occasion favored trickery and stealth over brute force, most notably when he ambushed Buffy.

Darla was a seductress who knew how to play on people, perhaps best demonstrated in Angel Season 2, but also present in Buffy.

She was a whore in life, then she had hundred of years to perfect that knowledge. Might have nbothing to do with her vampireness. On Angel, she got drugs to get into Angel's dreams (while doing stuff to him while he was asleep, it seems).

Drusilla has mental powers like the Master. Her manipulation of Giles in Becoming again shows an ability to get inside someone's head. She also seems to have uncanny insight.

She had The Sight as human. Maybe her powers got stronger when she turned into a vampire or maybe she just starting using them after her death. Either way, maybe she would have been just as strong if she had been turned by a lesser vampire than Angelus.

At first Spike seems like he shouldn't fit, thanks to his impetuousness. But in many episodes he shows himself to be a great reader of people, such as in the Yoko Factor. In addition he basically admits that he beat the previous Slayers because he was able to sense their secret death wish.

Yeeeaaaaah, I always thought that was a weird seduction technique he used, nothing more. Make her feel helpless and then close the deal. Not that I think he's wrong; who wouldn't want to end it all, in one way or another, after having been a slayer for a few years?

So the question becomes does the Masters Blood cause this, or enhance it? Or do those of the Masters line seek out those with psychological strength?

I think it enchances. I think Drusilla's abilities got stronger as she was turned, and that all in the line of Aurelius got more power than the average vampire. But I also think that any vampire would like to turn people around they find useful, so sure, the line of Aurelius might do so as well. Angelus probably turned Drusilla since she was already broken and could be as a seer. Darla and Drusilla only seems to have sired Angel & Spike because they wanted a playmate though.

[wenxina]

Sidebar: I dunno if Drusilla's powers got stronger, of it was just because she was bat-poop crazy by the time she was sired, that she started to listen to them more. As a human, Drusilla was a devout Catholic, and believed that her Sight was not wholesome, that it was the devil whispering to her. That's why she went to confess. In other words, she fought against her visions, instead of wholly embracing them after her siring.

[astranger]

Of the descendants of the Master we see, Drusilla seems to be the only one who can kill by mesmerizing a victim cobra-like. Merely being a descendant of the Master doesn't seem to help with that. Or did I forget something?

No I think you mis-understood. I wasn't just talking about psychic powers like hypnosis, but mental strength in general, which includes fields like psychological torture and the ability to get inside someones head.

I think it enchances. I think Drusilla's abilities got stronger as she was turned, and that all in the line of Aurelius got more power than the average vampire. But I also think that any vampire would like to turn people around they find useful, so sure, the line of Aurelius might do so as well. Angelus probably turned Drusilla since she was already broken and could be as a seer. Darla and Drusilla only seems to have sired Angel & Spike because they wanted a playmate though.

I think I'll agree. All your previous counter points are valid. I just thought it was interesting to consider.

Another thing to think about though is that the blood itself might select for those traits. The Master seemed to stalk Darla before hand. In turn Darla became almost instantly fixated on Liam. Angelus also fixated on Drusilla. It is much harder to tell if Drusilla fixated on Spike though, but she seemed determined after seeing him.

Though I think the problem is that we lack a complete picture of lines of sires. With the exception of the core 4 vampires we don't always actually know who sired whom.

[Scarygothgirl]

^To be honest I think that Drusilla liked Spike because of how pathetic he was, she saw that as an interesting contrast to what she already had with Angellus.