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Post by wenxina on Feb 21, 2010 2:30:15 GMT -5
It's only a comic book. everyones entittled to thier oppinnion. You can't know at 5 if your gay or not. You can't be 5 and kiss someone of the same sex and think oh im gay. And why would you wanna try new things if your straight what your saying sounds like everyone has to try it with the same sex to find out if your gay or not. I think your'e putting my Buffy / Satsu oppinion off topic and you've turned it into real life gay or straight debate. And you've misunderstood my point. the "i dont get it" was in response to the tv comment. Im saying people think hold on i dont get it if your watching a tv show and theres straight characters then for example one night theres a drunken kiss and then the two characters are like oh okay were gay now without having any gay experiances before.... so im not being prejudiced. Iv'e never known anyone say oh i like girls then randomly go off and have sex with a guy and then be like oh that was fine now i like men. Because thats what your point says to me. Whats flying the bow even mean? iv'e never heard of that befoere I'm not turning it into a real life "gay or straight" debate. You did. You based your opinion on what could happen on your own personal experience, and I just provided the flipside. And I'm pretty sure that I said that you don't have to experiment if you don't want to, but if you decide that you don't want to try new things, then you don't get to say that you "don't get it". Because the fact remains that you didn't want to try it. Which is fine. You're just not entitled to that opinion on a solely objective basis. I'm sorry, as you're not gay, you do not get to dictate my life experiences. I knew at 5 that I liked men. I was more into Prince Eric than I was Princess Ariel. Even at a very primordial level, I knew what I was attracted to, even if I didn't fully understand what it is that I was attracted to. That I figured out when I was 11, but that's another matter altogether.' I understood your point, and I was making the point that art often imitates life, and in this case, the unexpected happens. Buffy didn't go gay, as you will learn as you continue reading. She did have a gay encounter with Satsu at least twice, but that doesn't make her gay, or even bi, based on the fluid sexual paradigm. Just because you never experienced something like that doesn't nullify its validity. As for flying the 'bow... it just means that you're not flying the rainbow colors, as in the gay pride flag. Meaning that you're not gay, and therefore, of course you don't understand how gay people work.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 21, 2010 2:34:18 GMT -5
The straight-girl-briefly-hooking-up-with-another-girl thing is exploitative and all about bringing in more viewers/readers, but when you get right down to it, everything in the entertainment industry is about that, to one degree or another. The key word there is "industry", after all--their main goal is to get the biggest audience possible, thru whatever means necessary, and make the most money. It's just as exploitative when an actor or actress does a magazine photoshoot in their undies as a way of getting attention for their new show or movie (you've seen Eliza's "Dollhouse" promos where she's pretty much nekkid, right?), but it's become so accepted that we rarely think twice about it. Exploitative or not, I don't have a problem with this kind of thing, because it's realistic. It's happening to "straight" women out there all the time, and if you don't believe that, then I'm sorry, but you haven't been around very much (or on a college campus ). I don't want to see shows/movies/comics cut back on it just because some people feel it's suddenly become "cliched". Not only would the fiction become less realistic, but I think that'd be a step backward in helping the homosexual community become more accepted and maintstream. So you can roll your eyes at Buffy/Satsu and say, "Oh, no, not this again!", yet would you feel weird if one of your friends revealed to you that they're gay or bi-sexual? Would you not want to be around them anymore? I'm guessing no, that it probably wouldn't bother you at all, and that's because popular entertainment over the last 15 or 20 years has helped de-sensitize us to it, and we're all much more comfortable around it than our parents and grandparents are/were. Buffy/Satsu is just one more little bit of that process. Instead of saying that they need to cut back on doing this with female characters, why not say that they need to do more of it with male characters? Because they do, and there's a long way to go in that area. I remember reading something a year or two ago about a survey that had been done of a wide spectrum of women, of all ages and backgrounds, and high number (40% or more, tho I don't remember the exact figure), said that they'd either been with another woman at some point, or fantasized about it. I don't think the number is that high among guys, but I think it's higher than a lot of people would suspect, and certainly higher than what's portrayed in popular culture. The stereotypical 3-some is m/f/f, but I'd bet you that there are a whole lot of m/m/f's going on out there right this very minute, too. I think it'd be great if someday we can get to the point with gender that we're at right now with race when it comes to attraction and dating. 40-50 years ago, interracial relationships were a very scandalous thing, yet fast-forward to 2003 and no one's saying, "It's totally OOC for Buffy to go out on a date with Principal Wood, because she's never shown any interest in black guys before!" People accepted it as no big deal, because it wasn't. It'd be nice if the Buffy/Satsu-type hook-ups of 2043 are as easily shrugged off, and the kids then are looking back at us like we were crazy for even having this discussion...
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Faith5byFive
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 21, 2010 5:46:23 GMT -5
you don't have to be gay thought to understand gay people. i have alot of gay friends , and just because im not "flying the flag" as you put it doesn't mean i don't understand them.
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Beaumonde
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Beaumonde on Feb 21, 2010 6:58:42 GMT -5
you don't have to be gay thought to understand gay people. i have alot of gay friends , and just because im not "flying the flag" as you put it doesn't mean i don't understand them. But you don't believe gay people can know they're gay when they're only 5 years old. Did you not have little baby crushes on Prince Charming or something when you were young?
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Post by wenxina on Feb 21, 2010 9:50:05 GMT -5
you don't have to be gay thought to understand gay people. i have alot of gay friends , and just because im not "flying the flag" as you put it doesn't mean i don't understand them. Not saying that you don't understand them per se, but that you cannot fully understand our experiences, just as we can't fully understand or appreciate the ones of straight people, unless we've walked in those shoes. However, that said, empathy goes a long way.
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Faith5byFive
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 21, 2010 12:29:42 GMT -5
Im just saying you can't know your gay at age 5 , sure you might of like the prince more , but boys tend to just as girls always like the girls more. Or other ways round that doesn't mean you know your gay.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
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[Mo0:0]
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 21, 2010 16:08:57 GMT -5
For me, I am starting to like the Buffy and Satsu storyline. I never did, but do now. Could be because I don’t think of myself as the straightest person around as much.. these days. So I’m all for Satsu and experimentation (Bi) Buffy.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 21, 2010 17:56:45 GMT -5
Im just saying you can't know your gay at age 5 , sure you might of like the prince more , but boys tend to just as girls always like the girls more. Or other ways round that doesn't mean you know your gay. Again, you don't know what I know. When I say I liked boys, I don't mean that I wanted to hang out with them. I didn't know that I was "gay", in that the word wasn't in my vocabulary then. And also, considering the fact that I was born and raised in a country where homosexuality is punishable by law, it wasn't something that was as widespread in more liberal nations, and so I didn't have an understanding of what it is I was. But I knew what I knew, and that it didn't align very well with what was considered normal.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 21, 2010 19:05:53 GMT -5
The straight-girl-briefly-hooking-up-with-another-girl thing is exploitative and all about bringing in more viewers/readers, but when you get right down to it, everything in the entertainment industry is about that, to one degree or another. The key word there is "industry", after all--their main goal is to get the biggest audience possible, thru whatever means necessary, and make the most money. It's just as exploitative when an actor or actress does a magazine photoshoot in their undies as a way of getting attention for their new show or movie (you've seen Eliza's "Dollhouse" promos where she's pretty much nekkid, right?), but it's become so accepted that we rarely think twice about it. I'm also not fond of that kind of advertisement :/ The exploiting thing isn't my #1 problem with it. It's it being boring and predictable. I dunno what that says about my morals, but yeah. It's happening to "straight" women out there all the time, and if you don't believe that, then I'm sorry, but you haven't been around very much (or on a college campus ). Yes I know. I'm in college (in San Francisco of all places), and have friends doing just that. You're talking to someone who has flown the bow in the (slayer?) pride parade. I don't want to see shows/movies/comics cut back on it just because some people feel it's suddenly become "cliched". Not only would the fiction become less realistic, but I think that'd be a step backward in helping the homosexual community become more accepted and maintstream. I do in the stories I like, simply because it does bore me. But that's just my feelings. I think there are other ways to help it become more accepted. Instead of saying that they need to cut back on doing this with female characters, why not say that they need to do more of it with male characters? I did say that. I think it'd be great if someday we can get to the point with gender that we're at right now with race when it comes to attraction and dating. 40-50 years ago, interracial relationships were a very scandalous thing, yet fast-forward to 2003 and no one's saying, "It's totally OOC for Buffy to go out on a date with Principal Wood, because she's never shown any interest in black guys before!" People accepted it as no big deal, because it wasn't. It'd be nice if the Buffy/Satsu-type hook-ups of 2043 are as easily shrugged off, and the kids then are looking back at us like we were crazy for even having this discussion... Yes, it would be.
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collex
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
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Post by collex on Feb 21, 2010 20:30:04 GMT -5
I have a hard time finding "straight-girl-hooking-up-temporary-with-another-girl" as cliché or exploitative because I,ve seen it in real life. I know someone who did it after having two kids. She divorced of her husband to go with a woman. (She went back to men after, and had two more kids). So because I know it can happen to anybody, I don't really see a problem with that kind of storyline.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 21, 2010 21:20:37 GMT -5
I don't know why everyone thinks I don't know it happens all the time, but I am very aware of it. Just because it happens in real life, doesn't mean I want to read/watch what is basically the same story over and over. All the time there are black people who were raised in the projects, but study hard and become successful whatevers (I'm not saying this happens every day, just that it does happen, and that it's not a complete oddity) but that doesn't mean I wanna see that story line over and over either. It just does not interest me. One of the reasons I like Buffy is because they usually put a twist on these kinds of things so that it's more interesting. However, whenever Buffy does a storyline I'm tired of (Buffy/Satsu thing just one example) that particular storyline bores me.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 21, 2010 22:00:08 GMT -5
Thing is, the Buffy/Satsu storyline isn't old hat in terms of stories told within the Buffyverse. I'm sorry that the media has saturated us with straight girl-on-girl action (Gossip Girl being the most recent offender in my experience, and from what I've read, 90210 will feature some of that too), and yes, it's mostly used for titillation... (hmm... that's an interesting word to spell). But if BtVS wasn't allowed to do stories that other shows have done, they're gonna be out of stories pretty soon. In fact, the whole Chosen One schtick has been done over and over again... from Beowulf to Jesus. The spin is as you suggested, that it's a female. But even then, we had Xena, who was a strong woman warrior character. And before her, Joan of Arc, Boudica, Queen Cordelia, Mulan, the Amazons, Artemis (Diana), the Valkyries, Wonder Woman, etc. Objectively speaking, BtVS isn't that original, but it's innovative in that it takes these old tropes, and plays with them, and inundates them with pop-culture. In the case of Buffy/Satsu, it opened up some new possibilities for Buffy, as well as showed her that not all her relationships are doomed from the get-go. Sex was the outlet, but not the goal here. And therefore, I didn't really care. And I really didn't get the big deal that was made of it. BtVS has often used sex to as a plot point before, so it's not that out of the blue. The only thing that would seem different is that is it's the main character who's experiencing this, instead of merely a supporting character. Unless you're talking about a queer-centric show (The L Word or Queer as Folk), that's usually pretty uncommon. Which is what makes it so much more ballsy... except, well, without balls, as it turns out.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 21, 2010 22:12:20 GMT -5
Another twist on Buffy's character was that she was a girly female hero. Those other female heroes (most of whom I'm very fond of) were great, but none of them were cheerleading valley girls. That's the first cheerleading hero I've ever seen (outside of anime that is). There are other overused stories that Buffy/Angel does, but you will find that I'm not a fan of quite a few of them (don't get me started on "Tomorrow"). But I do completely agree with everything you said. I also really love the pun
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Faith5byFive
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 22, 2010 9:03:44 GMT -5
Iv'e made my point and can't be botthered to debate/agrue anymore or whatever my main points are....
.I didn't like the fact Buffy was boy mad and in my oppinnion she should only be with Angel and then she randomly (again randomly is my oppion) experiments with Satsu
.I like Satsu as a character but i don't want her and Buffy to EVER have a releationship as girlfriends however i think it'd be good if they did explore it abit if Satsu got a girlfriend and came back and Buffy was kinda jealous or something
also i just wanted to share this cool Satsu video i found for people that are fans/shippers of the Buffy/Satsu realtionship
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Post by wenxina on Feb 22, 2010 9:37:44 GMT -5
That's actually a pretty good likeness to Satsu... kudos.
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Faith5byFive
Psychic Link to the PTB
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Post by Faith5byFive on Feb 22, 2010 9:52:52 GMT -5
I thought so too. I think the song choice was good too. I think they should of put Mr Gordo in the video haha thats my favourite part of Buffy & Satsu Mr Gordo was on the floor
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 22, 2010 12:32:55 GMT -5
Omg, that "Satsu" was on the Real World something something o.0 (I forget which season).
Just checked: It's the real world San Diego. That's so crazy, and she does look like Satsu.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 22, 2010 19:56:42 GMT -5
Instead of saying that they need to cut back on doing this with female characters, why not say that they need to do more of it with male characters? I did say that. Yes, you did. But when you say that you're getting tired of it among female characters, I take that to mean that you'd rather see them stop doing it, or at the very least cut back on it--correct me if I mis-interpreted you on that. What I'm saying is that, regardless of whatever self-serving, attention-grabbing reasons networks and producers have for doing this, I don't want them to scale it back among the female characters--I'd like to see them even it out a little more among the male characters. The more people see of it, the more it becomes just a normal thing that nobody really thinks twice about anymore. And for the record, nothing in my post was directed specifically at you. It was all generalities. I skimmed thru the last few posts, not really paying any attention to who said what, and went on a (friendly) mini-diatribe against some of the more recent criticisms that I've heard, both here and elsewhere. I'm not sure how much sense any of it made, but I won't confirm or deny the possibility that I'd had an alcoholic beverage or two before posting.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Feb 24, 2010 17:02:18 GMT -5
No prob. I think I've been hanging around on youtube too much (where people always have to reply to something I say even when it's a simple "I like cheese."), because I thought you were replying to me, lol. But none of it offended me. I just wanted to make sure my point was clear, so that I wouldn't be misunderstood.
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Post by TheRedPoet on Nov 29, 2010 18:47:23 GMT -5
I personally liked it. Not because of the gay thing, but because to me it was about Buffy. Perhaps she was bi-curious or whatever, but mainly that she was a bit lonely and wanted to connect with someone. And voila, there's a hot girl, a slayer and a protege of hers to boot. It's not gonna lead anywhere but to heartbreak for Satsu, of course.
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