Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 13:30:12 GMT -5
Maybe the reason why Buffy was so freaked out about Willow is because she saw a bit of herself in that.
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 13:45:38 GMT -5
Well, Mikey, then I sure hope you've never said a single... critical... word about Buffy keeping Angel's return a secret, Parker using her for an easy lay, Buffy jumping into bed with him so quickly, Buffy blowing off her friends for Riley in Season 4, Buffy using Spike to vent her self-loathing, Willow mind-wiping Tara in "All The Way", Xander leaving Anya at the altar, or Riley going to get blood-sucked by vampires.
All of those are situations of people doing wrong by each other (and themselves) in matters of love and sex.
And if how Buffy is treating this situation is okay, everyone of those is okay. Otherwise, it really is just "Buffy has sex with girl good, fire bad, tree pretty", and every excuse is more important than the specific details.
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 8, 2008 13:53:34 GMT -5
There is a division in the community though. There are people who are disgusted at what happened, and people who are fine with it. Disgusted is an incredibly strong word to use; there's implied accusations of homophobia in a word like disgusted. Coming at it as pure story, I'd say disappointed summed up the sentiments of the majority of fans. Disappointed that Buffy is acting like such a Parker, after all she's been through, and considering the position she's in. Buffy and Satsu are adults. They can do whatever they want together, they don't need your approval or anybody else's. And neither does Joss. If you are uncomfortable with this latest issue...it's not his fault. It's yours. Sorry, but it's true. All I can say is I hope you keep reading and see where Joss goes with this, because he's a freakin' genisu. And this! This! The relentless defense of Joss Whedon because 'he's a genius'! It's almost as bad as the people who take it personally if Joss kills one of their favourite characters, or puts them through something that they don't come out of shiny. Joss is not a genius; he's a guy that created a show. A brilliant show, yes, but that wasn't the work of one man; without Jane Espenson, without Marti Noxon, without Doug Petrie or Drew Goddard or Greenburg or any number of brilliant scriptwriters and directors, Buffy would never have been the show it became. And it's not all brilliant. I've seen this 'if you don't like it you're not reading it right' sentiment bandied about on these boards - in this fandom - too often. Art is about discussion; this is a discussion forum. If everyone was posting about how awesome Joss is and nothing else, it would become old fast. MB x
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 13:57:56 GMT -5
He brought Buffy breakfast. He "cared" about her feelings insofar as he tried to just sort of fade away by being very sweet and then not calling. Buffy didn't care about anything but her non-penis, if you take Scott Allie at his word from the CBR interview.
Why stop? Because it's just annoyingly valid and makes it inconvenient to try to pigeonhole critics of Buffy's behavior?
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 13:58:28 GMT -5
Buffy isn't acting like Parker. She's taking care of Satsu, she asked her to stay. She cares about her feelings. Parker didn't care about anything other than his penis. Stop comparing her to him. Buffy is just as bad as Parker. She told S that she didn't like her like that she isn't gay and all. Then she goes and sleeps with her then tells her whilst there in bed that it wont be more then just this even though she knows that S is madly in love with her Buffy did a stupid thing and now will have hurt S just like Parker hurt her.
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 14:02:29 GMT -5
I had this banner made as a way to be snarky to feuding Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Angel 'shippers, but now it seems too appropriate not to use VDS, don't forget the "it's not what it looks like" in front of *everybody* with Satsu naked and already embarrassed besides her.
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 8, 2008 14:02:31 GMT -5
Buffy isn't acting like Parker. She's taking care of Satsu, she asked her to stay. What comic were you reading? MB x
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 8, 2008 14:03:18 GMT -5
In this situation, comparing her to Parker is pretty straight-on. We don't know what happened before the encounter, and I don't see Buffy seducing Satsu, more like the other way around. However, how Buffy reacted afterward... "sure, you can stay the night, but it's a one time thing and we can't tell anyone about it" KNOWING how Satsu felt for her, it's totally Parker.
I think Buffy used Satsu, and therefore it was wrong.
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 14:04:41 GMT -5
Did you not read the book, not read the interviews, or both? Buffy was "using" Satsu, per Scott Allie, "experimenting" per Joss, and, in the text of comic, we know that Satsu DID NOT KNOW GOING IN that this was a one time thing or might be a one time thing.
Buffy DID NOT KNOW GOING IN that Parker would be a one time thing.
Everything else is rationalization.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 14:08:45 GMT -5
Let's get over it, people... This is a discussion about what happened getting over it wouldn't be discussing it. Buffy acted like Parker she used Satsu just like she used Spike. She knows how much Satsu loves her and Buffy i think betrayed that because she used it to get what she wanted. Knowing that she wouldn't do it again leaving a very sad Satsu. And Buffy wonders why her love life sucks..
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 8, 2008 14:09:05 GMT -5
Did you miss that part or something? Oh snap! But no. It's that relentless defense thing again; Buffy was acting like a pillock. I think that was the point. MB x
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 14:10:35 GMT -5
Between Buffy's callous insensitivity about "it's not what it looks like" and Willow's almost bizarrely hostile remarks right in front of her, probably one of the worst nights of that poor girl's life.
All of which could have been avoided if Bufy really thought about what she wanted with Satsu and why *before* climbing into bed with her.
But that's okay... "Buffy girl-on-girl good, fire bad".
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 14:15:14 GMT -5
Between Buffy's callous insensitivity about "it's not what it looks like" and Willow's almost bizarrely hostile remarks right in front of her, probably one of the worst nights of that poor girl's life. All of which could have been avoided if Bufy really thought about what she wanted with Satsu and why *before* climbing into bed with her. But that's okay... "Buffy girl-on-girl good, fire bad". Yer the way Willow looked and Buffy said its not what it looks like as everyone stated coming in Satsu must have felt mega out of place and used.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Mar 8, 2008 14:17:38 GMT -5
I despise all the agenda-mongering going on. That's what it is, as several posters have and still are doing, to marginalize any criticism of Buffy's behavior as that old tripe, homophobia. I don't care Satsu's a girl. I do care that she's *in love with Buffy* and Buffy is *not* in love with her. I do care that Satsu can't even pretend not to care that much to protect herself, because Buffy knows through magical fait accompli that Satsu really is in love with her. I do care that Buffy's choice to "experiment" knowing that she and Satsu had different expectations going in (which we know indisputably by the fact Satsu still had to ask the question after they had sex) is not really any different than Parker sleeping with Buffy knowing that they had different expectations. Scott Allie and Joss both explicitly verified that this was an 'experiment' and that Buffy is 'using' Satsu. It wasn't acceptable behavior then, why is it acceptable now? Are people really that obsessed with validating themselves by looking "open-minded" about Buffy having a same-sex experiment that they are willing to just strip the event out of all context and make excuses for anything? I mean, let's say that this happened because Buffy had somehow caused a "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" or "Something Blue" situation? Would it *still* be okay just because zOMG Buffy had teh sexx w/ a gurll!!11? I would hope that people would say "of course it wouldn't be okay". But, I also would have hoped more people would have thought it's not okay that Satsu is being used to sate horny, lonely Buffy. It would have been much less iffy had, for instance, 8.11 ended with Buffy, rather than just holding Satsu's hand, hesitantly going in for a kiss. Or if we actually heard Satsu, in as many words, tell Buffy before the fact that she didn't want anything from her, didn't expect anything from her, just wanted to be with her. Instead, we know the opposite is true of Satsu's feelings... because she still had the question after they slept together. She still felt embarrassed enough to try to *leave* when she got the answer she didn't want. And, however sweetly Buffy acted afterwards, she basically carved Satsu's heart out and showed it to her for the rest of the issue. Not only did she, a moment after puttin a "for now" gloss on their "secret", turn around and *deny* Satsu in front of everyone in spite of being naked in bed with her, she apparently also just left her alone there when she went to check out the wolf thing. Satsu's new situation is summed up perfectly in the panel where Buffy and Xander are on the dais addressing the group. The Slayers are all on the floor. Off to one side, Satsu is with Leah and Rowena. Except Satsu is standing on the step, below and behind Buffy, but above and apart from her Alpha Team-mates. Caught in the middle. Between that and Willow's (rather surprising, and clearly meant to hurt Buffy) remark about nothing making sense making Satsu lower her head in shame, the poor girl's dream night -- in bed with the woman she loved -- turned into a humiliation so painful you almost wanted to cry. But all that, *all that*, is apparently okay because zOMG Buffy had teh sexx w/ a gurll!!11. Yeah, this is about as snarky as I've been on this. But I'm tired of being called a homophobe by other fans because I'm actually one of the few people taking a *genderless* look at what's happened. I gave you a Slayer Karma point, or whatever they are. Thumbs Up.
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 14:18:54 GMT -5
Well, Willow might have the same problem that Tara once raised to her in "Tough Love" -- that Willow (now Buffy) might just be going through a "phase". Considering how personally Willow takes everything about her relationship with Tara, considering how she feels she chose Buffy over Tara, considering how she knows for fact that using people in relationships is just an unfortunate part of who Buffy is at times, I think it makes a lot of sense that Willow might be pretty on fire about this situation.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 8, 2008 14:22:43 GMT -5
Was she really on fire about the situation? She seemed more sad than anything. I truly wonder if Willow wasn't just the tinsiest bit jealous.
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 14:27:06 GMT -5
I saw the possibility of jealousy, but the timing and choice and place of words (as well as Xander's gaping reaction, Buffy's eyes, and Satsu's *further* shame) indicate that the delivery was rather biting. "Believe me, nothing makes sense to me tonight".
Willow is definitely on about something, we just having seen what it is exactly yet. That was just my most reasonable guess.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 14:28:10 GMT -5
Why would Willow be all green about it.....? She had Kennedy....
I think will was upset more then anything that she had to find out Buffy had sex with a girl by falling into the room..
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 8, 2008 14:33:37 GMT -5
I really wonder what Xander is thinking. See, he knew Satsu gave the kiss, he was looking. So he knew half of this equation already. And he knows the same foibles about Buffy that Willow does. There's no question he has been in love with Buffy before, and probably always will be in some sense.
I actually drabbled on this exact idea of Xander and Willow both feeling jealous, I should post it on the fanfic section here.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 14:34:12 GMT -5
Jealous that Buffy shared something with Satsu that she couldn't share with Willow. That she hid something. And on a sex level, Willow probably had a crush on Buffy at some point, but would obviously deny it. Where on earth did you get Willow probs had a crush on Buffy???.. did i miss somthing
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