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Post by CowboyGuy on May 23, 2008 6:27:00 GMT -5
Yeah I don't think the artwork is quite accurate. They made Xander look really really bad. And that's just...gross. I much prefer heroic, in shape Xander to some lackey looking flunkie!
I think the story is in continuity, but I doubt he was there for an entire year. It could be a loose tale, maybe? LOL.
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Post by wenxina on May 23, 2008 9:41:57 GMT -5
The artwork in "Antique" was horrible. Xander's hunchbacked posture was probably just an exaggeration. I think you guys are splitting hairs when it comes to what actually happened. The art is just the way the story is told. If someone else drew it, maybe it'd been better. But what those of us are saying is canon are the actual events that unfolded, including, yes, dialogue.
As for the bit about Xander seeking out Drac... that's kinda reaching. He has never shown any love for the vampire before, and to suddenly need to find a buddy to mourn Anya over... why go all the way to Dracula? What's the Count ever done for him that indicated any sympathy at all? You can argue that they probably developed some kind of fondness for each other during and after the events of "Antique", but before it? I think you'd be stretching your imagination a wee bit.
So, I'm less likely to believe that Xander was NOT shanghaied and went to see Drac on his own free will. Operative term, "free".
I don't dispute that "Antique" is in continuity (since I've said several times now, and others have backed me up that it is canon), but the events leading to it are still murky, since we're thrown en media ras into the action in "Antique" and then we have Andrew's version of what happened.
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on May 23, 2008 15:54:44 GMT -5
The artwork in "Antique" was horrible. Xander's hunchbacked posture was probably just an exaggeration. I think you guys are splitting hairs when it comes to what actually happened. The art is just the way the story is told. If someone else drew it, maybe it'd been better. But what those of us are saying is canon are the actual events that unfolded, including, yes, dialogue. As for the bit about Xander seeking out Drac... that's kinda reaching. He has never shown any love for the vampire before, and to suddenly need to find a buddy to mourn Anya over... why go all the way to Dracula? What's the Count ever done for him that indicated any sympathy at all? You can argue that they probably developed some kind of fondness for each other during and after the events of "Antique", but before it? I think you'd be stretching your imagination a wee bit. So, I'm less likely to believe that Xander was NOT shanghaied and went to see Drac on his own free will. Operative term, "free". I don't dispute that "Antique" is in continuity (since I've said several times now, and others have backed me up that it is canon), but the events leading to it are still murky, since we're thrown en media ras into the action in "Antique" and then we have Andrew's version of what happened. Andrew said about them keeping in touch, so I think after Anya died, Xander was dealing with it really badly after it hit him finally that he will never be able to see her again. That he'd lost her forever, so he sent Drac a letter. No one was mourning her as much as he was, so he thought Dracula! Who else was he gonna find? D'Hoffryn who wanted her dead? He didn't know many of her demon friends that don't hate her or that have died right? I don't think I'm reaching too far. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 23, 2008 16:22:36 GMT -5
Perhaps Xander went on a road trip after Chosen, needing some time alone. His car broke down in the mountains, he walked, saw a castle and meet Dracula, who hexed him. When Xander didn't answer his cell(probably destroyed by the rain), Buffy searched for him and eventually found him with Dracula.
Anything's possible.
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Post by wenxina on May 23, 2008 18:13:39 GMT -5
You can't say that it's 100% canon and then say "Oh yeah, but Xander wasn't actually a midget hunchback". LOL That's not just Xander bending over, his body is completely different, he's like a foot tall. Again, crappy art. Mikey, if you really need to win a ridiculous argument like this, please, by all means, take it. I care not. You always miss the point anyway, whenever it suits your purposes, so really, what's the point? No one's disputing canonicity. It's the events that led up to "Antique" that I'm iffy about. That's about as simple as I can make it. If you miss it, then here's your tiara. You win.  |
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Post by wenxina on May 23, 2008 18:19:02 GMT -5
Andrew said about them keeping in touch, so I think after Anya died, Xander was dealing with it really badly after it hit him finally that he will never be able to see her again. That he'd lost her forever, so he sent Drac a letter. No one was mourning her as much as he was, so he thought Dracula! Who else was he gonna find? D'Hoffryn who wanted her dead? He didn't know many of her demon friends that don't hate her or that have died right? I don't think I'm reaching too far. Yes, and I always take everything that Andrew says with the Dead Sea equivalent of salt. I'm just saying that it's possible that Andrew "prettified" the story, just as he's done before. Erm... and it's my personal opinion that the whole seeking Dracula out is reaching. All you've provided is a possible scenario, but not an explanation for it. So he's mourning, and suddenly, he goes, "Anya knew Dracula. She had a crush on him. Maybe I should seek him out... so we can chat about her greatness"? Dracula didn't even remember Anya/Anyanka. If Xander wanted to talk the greatness of Anya, he would have sought out Andrew... at least Andrew knew Anya, and seemed to really share a connection with her. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 23, 2008 18:56:53 GMT -5
What if Xander needed to talk to someone who didn't know Anya? Who he could tell about her beauty and kindness, and leave out the nasty murderness.
Not that I think that Dracula could put up with too much of Xander's feelings and grief, but it wouldn't be the same if he talked to Willow or Buffy or Giles, because he would know that they deep inside would think; Atleast we don't have to be worried about her actions anymore.
But Dracula would probably not care.
I still think that he got kidnapped tough, but it's a possibility that their "friendship" started out willingly, especially if they meet in a bar or something.
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Post by wenxina on May 23, 2008 19:36:30 GMT -5
That's a little more likely, and starting out with the both of them being drunk and chatting, fine. Probably the most plausible scenario I've actually heard.
It's just... Dracula. Man made Xander his buttmonkey once, I doubt even grief-driven Xander would want to risk that again, unless intoxicated.
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Post by KingofCretins on May 23, 2008 20:17:40 GMT -5
In no way does "Antique" actually suggest that there was "something" going on between Xander and Dracula. Nothing but that thinking makes it so.
Honestly, if Andrew's exposition stands unchallenged as canon fact, and Xander went to Dracula, who brainwashed him and humiliated him and belongs to a demonic breed that there has never been any textual indication before or after that he doesn't still hate as much as he did in 1.02 "The Harvest", to mourn Anya... that would stand as *easily* the most shameless and nonsensical retcon in the Buffyverse. Worse than Hank Summers getting hit with the bad dad stick. Worse than Olaf becoming a troll "god".
I get that they wanted to wave a quick wand of credibility over telling a Dracula story, but really, both Joss and Drew should honestly be a little embarrassed by the way it was so implausibly fudged.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 23, 2008 20:49:23 GMT -5
By the way people...it's clear Xander WENT to him. He wasn't kidnapped. He was grieving over Anya. Where exactly was that clear? I mean, other than Andrew's notoriously unreliable storytelling? If you'd never watched "Buffy", only "Angel", would you therefore believe Andrew's version of things in "Damage" where he tells everyone that he and Spike--with just a little bit of help from Buffy--saved the world together? Until I see or hear different, nothing's going to convince me that it wasn't just a chance encounter where Xander and Dracula happened to cross paths, and Dracula, feeling lonely, put Xander back under his thrall... |
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balesthebloody
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Post by balesthebloody on May 24, 2008 1:11:26 GMT -5
I think that Xander will always be "connected" to Dracula. If Dracula ever wants Xander to come to him all he will have to do is "call". That is how I like to think things happened.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 24, 2008 5:42:14 GMT -5
What if it's the leftover of the thrall from season 5 and Antique that makes Xander so friendly with Dracula? Dracula might not be doing it on purpose, it's just a side-effect of the thralls that has been.
Just a thought about how thralled Xander is.
And I have to agree with kingofcretins, it's just weird that Xander is that nice to a vamp. Either it's the thrall, leftover or restrengthen, or he had an epiphany between season 7 and 8.
Knowing how hateful Xander was against Angel and Spike, I'd say thrall. I really hope we will find out.
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Post by KingofCretins on May 24, 2008 8:40:51 GMT -5
Which is why I find the slashcrack about them so especially repugnant -- the implicit truth is that anything 'shippy is non-consentual on its face. Xander was a brainwashed slave. A vote in favor of slash here is a vote in favor of rape. No pressure, though And the lingering thrall effects are pure buttmonkey -- or else Buffy would have them, too. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 24, 2008 8:53:48 GMT -5
And the lingering thrall effects are pure buttmonkey -- or else Buffy would have them, too. But Buffy's a slayer. Since she is part-demon, it's less likely that she can be thralled so easily, as we could see in Buffy vs Dracula. |
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ded1
Rogue Demon Hunter
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Post by ded1 on May 24, 2008 9:30:23 GMT -5
And the lingering thrall effects are pure buttmonkey -- or else Buffy would have them, too. But Buffy's a slayer. Since she is part-demon, it's less likely that she can be thralled so easily, as we could see in Buffy vs Dracula. Just a thought,but what if Xander's grief over Anya caused his mind to retreat into itself.It could've weakened him enough to awaken any lingering thrall effects that might remain.Then Xander,perhaps seeing it as a refuge from the grief,sought Dracula out to hide from said grief. Frankly,we really don't have a whole lot of information on this particular subject yet(if we actually get more,I will be a little suprised) |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 24, 2008 9:37:32 GMT -5
ded1, that's a valid guess. Don't know why I didn't think of that.
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Post by wenxina on May 24, 2008 10:34:37 GMT -5
You know, here's the thing about Xander and his grief. It's currently all "read between the lines". At the end of "Chosen", he wasn't as banged up as you thought he would be. All he said to Andrew's heroic Anya tale was "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing". And then he proceeds to make jokes with the rest about destroying the mall and Sunnydale.
True, it could be his way of dealing, and the grief came after, but as I said, "read between the lines". I still stand by my notion that if it was grief that Xander was feeling, going away wasn't the solution, and definitely not to Dracula, for the exact reasons that kingofcretins mentioned.
Now, if it were for something else, like say needing to clear his head, to decide if he still wanted in on the good fight, I can understand leaving the castle for a short while. Would also explain why he's got so much clarity on the whole situation (i.e. being Buffy's pep squad) when Buffy doesn't.
Or hey, I'm even willing to buy residual thrall... just not Xander felt a connection to Drac, he looked him up, they got horny together. Out of character much, and completely different from the events seen in "Antique".
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 24, 2008 11:27:04 GMT -5
Wenxina, you can't blame us for thinking waaaay outside the box. This is Joss' comic we're talking about, God knows what he will do. We're just preparing ourselves for any possibility. Also, our minds live in the gutter(atleast mine), so yeah, sex(non-con or not) comes to mind from time to time.  |
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Post by wenxina on May 24, 2008 11:50:56 GMT -5
Hey, way outside the box I can take. Gutterminds, I love them. All I'm asking for it textual/visual/something support. Mikey, tis true that "Chosen" would have been better as a 2-hour finale, but I don't think it was so much his choice as the studio execs not giving the greenlight. Grieving realistically comes in many different forms. For all you know, given the number of times he's seen death, faced it down, survived, and resuscitated the fallen, Xander's way of dealing could be to crack jokes. The crash could come after, as I've previously mentioned. He definitely did not become a sex addict, given his references to masturbation (as his only sexual reprieve) in #3. At least not with the other girls. BUT... given that S8 is in comic format, if Renee's toast, it would be interesting to see if Xander's actually given an opportunity to grieve for all of us to see. Now... preview? |
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Smashed
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Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on May 24, 2008 11:58:54 GMT -5
Hey, way outside the box I can take. Gutterminds, I love them. All I'm asking for it textual/visual/something support. Mikey, tis true that "Chosen" would have been better as a 2-hour finale, but I don't think it was so much his choice as the studio execs not giving the greenlight. Grieving realistically comes in many different forms. For all you know, given the number of times he's seen death, faced it down, survived, and resuscitated the fallen, Xander's way of dealing could be to crack jokes. The crash could come after, as I've previously mentioned. He definitely did not become a sex addict, given his references to masturbation (as his only sexual reprieve) in #3. At least not with the other girls. BUT... given that S8 is in comic format, if Renee's toast, it would be interesting to see if Xander's actually given an opportunity to grieve for all of us to see. Now... preview? Hmm, when was the masturbation reference? |
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