vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on Aug 8, 2008 22:39:40 GMT -5
I also don't understand why a lot of people are against the idea of bringing Dru back to season 8 because she "belongs with Angel and Spike." There main argument is that she has a personal history with these two and no real connection with Buffy's character. But I keep thinking.. with that attitude she never will? You have to develop those relationships, Angel and Spike didn't have a personal connection to Buffy either until they were given the chance, why shouldn't it be the same with Dru? If the writers always thought that way and played safe Buffy would have never formed a relationship with anyone other than Xander and Willow.
I would have loved to see Dru back, but I wasn't disappointed by the reveal it was Willow. I think it'll be really interesting and I loved the panel of the reveal, Willow looked incredibly sad. I don't think it's just going to be a rehash of season six's plot, there's something different going on here in my opinion.
Besides if we're ever going to get a Buffy/Dru arc that isn't just about Angel or Spike but actually developing a conflict between these two for other reasons, I want it to be set in the present. I always wanted more Buffy VS Dru and we never got much of it.
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Post by faithnspike on Aug 8, 2008 22:43:13 GMT -5
Yeah I have never understood the whole "Drusilla isn't powerful" angle. She's the only surviving member of the original Fang Gang. Technically Spike and Angel are alive, but they have both died (and aren't even evil anymore), and Darla has died twice. She can hold her own against every opponent we've seen her face, and even killed Kendra without much trouble. Drusilla is still very much a force to be reckoned with (and why I wanted her to return in this arc). Exactly Also she always had visions of the future like when she warned Angel that Jenny was trying to re-insoul him. She not only killed Kendra but did it easy. She seemed to put Kendra in a trance. I think Drusila is one of the most powerful villains we have seen. The only thing is that we haven’t seen the full extent of her power. It would have made much more sense being Dru. In the future. A strong vampire could have lived that long and sired “lerks’ until the vampires rose again. If magic ended where did the lerks come from. One vampire left would have explaned it. Dru could have seen it all coming and planed for the future. I don’t understand how Willow would have anything to do with the rise of new vampires or Harth as she is not a vamp I felt that the way it was reveled to be willow was to shock us not because it made sense. I am sure Joss will explain and has his reasons (I trust him and his vision) but as of now it seems like a shock tactic.
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on Aug 8, 2008 22:46:27 GMT -5
And Dru didn't just take out Kendra by putting her in a trance. In order to get her in a position where she could do this, Dru beat Kendra in hand to hand combat and had her by the throat up against the counter. Which shows that Dru's also a very capable fighter as well as her extra abilities. Her fight with Angel in Ats season two also shows this, we know how good of a fighter Angel is and Dru basically matched him blow for blow. Angel was very freaked out about Dru being in Los Angeles, he’d know about as good as anyone what a danger she is. She's mentally insane but incredibly dangerous and cunning to last as long as she has.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Aug 8, 2008 22:54:00 GMT -5
And yet she still had some emotional power over Angel. We see this in Buffy season 2, when Angel warns Drusilla to leave instead of staking her on the spot. Family still matters, even when Angel isn't Angelus. It's still hard for him to hurt her, even though he does when he's pushed hard enough.
And there's a reason they cast a woman who was both an actor and a dancer for Drusilla. She's very graceful, even when she fights.
I agree that she's rather on the powerful side, maybe not to the extent Willow is, but still powerful.
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lavelle
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 4
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Post by lavelle on Aug 8, 2008 22:57:34 GMT -5
I dug the reveal, but I'll admit - the Fray elements are losing me. I picked up the first 2 issues of Fray when they originally came out and just never got around to picking up the trade 4 years later. I'm a massive fan of the show - and a fairly big comics nerd - and even I'm having a hard time following all the stuff about Fray and her twin. Actually, I'm having the MOST trouble caring about them. There's not much set-up for the Fray world and I feel like I'm being penalized for not having read the series. My wife is a huge fan of the show also. She was excited about Season 8, but she's pretty much given up because the Fray stuff is hard for the non-comics literate to follow. I dunno. I liked the Dark Willow reveal, but I really need more of a reason to give a hoot about Fray -- without just being told to read the series. Ah well, just me bitching.
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chasmatic
Rogue Demon Hunter
In her fruitless kingdom...[Mo0:33]
Posts: 460
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Post by chasmatic on Aug 8, 2008 23:00:29 GMT -5
I dug the reveal, but I'll admit - the Fray elements are losing me. I picked up the first 2 issues of Fray when they originally came out and just never got around to picking up the trade 4 years later. I'm a massive fan of the show - and a fairly big comics nerd - and even I'm having a hard time following all the stuff about Fray and her twin. Actually, I'm having the MOST trouble caring about them. There's not much set-up for the Fray world and I feel like I'm being penalized for not having read the series. My wife is a huge fan of the show also. She was excited about Season 8, but she's pretty much given up because the Fray stuff is hard for the non-comics literate to follow. I dunno. I liked the Dark Willow reveal, but I really need more of a reason to give a hoot about Fray -- without just being told to read the series. Ah well, just me bitching. Yeah, I definitely think it would be hard to care about Fray and her family and world when you didn't read it. Check out this site: www.geocities.com/josswhedon_fray/webpage/main.htmlMaybe it'll give you some more info about Fray to help you get into the new Buffy arc?
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Post by hitnrun017 on Aug 8, 2008 23:51:16 GMT -5
I dug the reveal, but I'll admit - the Fray elements are losing me. I picked up the first 2 issues of Fray when they originally came out and just never got around to picking up the trade 4 years later. I'm a massive fan of the show - and a fairly big comics nerd - and even I'm having a hard time following all the stuff about Fray and her twin. Actually, I'm having the MOST trouble caring about them. There's not much set-up for the Fray world and I feel like I'm being penalized for not having read the series. My wife is a huge fan of the show also. She was excited about Season 8, but she's pretty much given up because the Fray stuff is hard for the non-comics literate to follow. I dunno. I liked the Dark Willow reveal, but I really need more of a reason to give a hoot about Fray -- without just being told to read the series. Ah well, just me bitching. I gotta say I feel bad for all the Season 8 readers who didn't read Fray. Joss didn't really do a good job introducing the world, I honestly think he made it even more complicated, especially with the dialogue. As someone who read Fray with no problem, I even had trouble following it. If I hadn't of read the series, I'd be extremely confused. Now onto the reveal, I was hoping for Drusilla. Dark Willow played out in Season 6, and I never wanted to see her again. She does seem a little different, and I'm interested to where the story goes, but I can't help but feel disappointed.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 8, 2008 23:56:54 GMT -5
I think the point is to get people to read Fray, if they haven't already. But as far as the dialogue goes, I really don't understand what the hubbub is. There's always enough context for you to figure out most of it, and if there were words that didn't quite make sense, Buffy provided a mini-glossary when she goes through the meanings of some of the more common words.
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spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
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Post by spurtyknowledge on Aug 9, 2008 14:35:41 GMT -5
I think the point is to get people to read Fray, if they haven't already. But as far as the dialogue goes, I really don't understand what the hubbub is. There's always enough context for you to figure out most of it, and if there were words that didn't quite make sense, Buffy provided a mini-glossary when she goes through the meanings of some of the more common words. True, especially considering that now more than ever, Fray has been established as a definite, full-on canon, and even essential part of the current Buffyverse. If you're reading season eight, why not take the time to read Fray?
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Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2008 15:18:09 GMT -5
Bored now. I feel like it's been done. Willow can wear the evil boots. We get it. The more she does this, the less believable I'll find her in the hero role. Whatever happened to season 1 Willow? She's a completely different character than the Willow we have now. She's not the Willow that helped me fall in love with the show in the first place. I liked akward Willow, hacker extrodinare... And now everything about her I related to is different. I don't know, my opinion of her as a character just keeps going down. Meanwhile, the more Xander I see the more I love him. And even though Buffy's made her mistakes, she's always very likable. Even Dracula has improved with time. What is with you, Willow? I have faith in Joss, and yet Willow hasn't been my favorite character for a while, and she probably won't be again. Echo that, mad. The more incredibly powerful Willow grew, the less I cared about her. Amy's speech in 'The Killer In Me' really hit it home - everything comes too easily for Willow and she doesn't suffer the consequences the way others do. Willow starting jumping the "I still empathize and care about her" shark towards the end of season 4. I miss Willow. The Willow I could connect to.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Aug 9, 2008 15:46:12 GMT -5
I think the last page reveal would of been of more shocking if they hadn't of teased us with it for a few months. Everyone knew it was either going to be Dark Willow or Drusilla, and that fact made the reveal very underwhelming. It would of been a lot more shocking without the "mystery women" on the variant cover and the "powerful enemy" made it even more obvious. They could of even held off on the issue 19 cover.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 9, 2008 16:27:11 GMT -5
Echo that, mad. The more incredibly powerful Willow grew, the less I cared about her. Amy's speech in 'The Killer In Me' really hit it home - everything comes too easily for Willow and she doesn't suffer the consequences the way others do. Willow starting jumping the "I still empathize and care about her" shark towards the end of season 4. I miss Willow. The Willow I could connect to. Gonna have to disagree. There have always been moments to put a dent in Willow's very together facade, and I use facade very selectively here, because it is a veneer. She may a confident young woman now, but she still has insecurities about who she is. In "Primeval", she had that dream about being naked in high school, with everyone, including Tara laughing at her. She described her stupid mousey ways with disdain, trying to bury it under tight leather and mystical black hair dye. She still blames herself for Tara's death, even after all this time. She's suffered addiction, recovered, and moved on. In fact, I can relate to grown-up Willow more now than I can with cute, dorky Willow, because I've also grown up. Yes, I fell in love with mousey Willow, but I was also... I can't remember... something like 12 or 13 back then. So I don't have issues with "broomstick action Willow".
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Post by willowxwonka on Aug 9, 2008 16:34:17 GMT -5
I heard that it was Drusilla, but also heard it was Dark Willow. I wasn't so sure who it was, but when I started reading it, I thought it was Drusilla. I was shocked to find it was Dark Willow...the dress threw me off. As I was reading it, I imagined Drusilla's voice. I was shocked...in a way.
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Aug 9, 2008 19:57:45 GMT -5
I figured it out pretty fast. I vaguely suspected it all along, but when the "camera" angle always cut off her face, I was pretty positive that it was really Willow.
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Post by SlayerLV on Aug 10, 2008 0:40:50 GMT -5
I wasn't really shocked that it was Willow but I was glad it was her. I also wouldn't have minded having Dru come back since she is just as crazy as Harth.
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barryshaft
Novice Witch
Sometimes I shouldn't say words...[Mo0:0]
Posts: 224
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Post by barryshaft on Aug 10, 2008 2:39:02 GMT -5
Personally I would have been a lot more shocked if I hadn't stumbled upon that Issue 19 Cover...why release these things if they have such huge spoilers in them? Don't they care at all about the fans experience?
I also had it randomly spoiled for me a few hours before picking up the issue, the one thing I noticed was that they clearly wanted you to think it was Dru, with all the dialogue being so vague "Connected to someone I love" of course supposedly turning fans to think of Dru's connection with Spike. I was actually hoping it was going to turn out to be Dru as she hasn't had a story in the verse since Season 2 of Angel (and her one off appearance in Crush)... but I actually think I'd rather they wait a bit. Maybe until Spike comes back into the picture (hopefully briefly).
But personally I dig the story this could provide. At no point do I see this is Angsty Quippy Dark Willow from Season 6... this is a new side of Willow that seems to have a very sad side to it. She seems very morose about what she's doing, questioning Harth's motives and such. She's clearly messing with some dark magics, being 200 years old and all and with the veins... but her hair is still rocking some red in it...which means rational Willow hasn't left the building. There's a lot of interesting places this could go.
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FiveByFiveFVS
Novice Witch
Psycho Slayer
That was great. I gotta shower.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 276
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Post by FiveByFiveFVS on Aug 10, 2008 8:34:12 GMT -5
I'm very excited to see how this all plays out. Drusilla would've been cool, but having it be Willow is going to make the story much more intense. I'm on the edge of my seat.
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Post by vampireinrug on Aug 10, 2008 20:35:59 GMT -5
This makes me fear for the Frayverse.
There's no way Joss will allow Willow to live for another 200 years and become sad, angsty and evil. This will be undone for sure. I'm thinking when Buffy gets sent back, she'll prevent Future-Dark-Willow from ever happening and probably the Frayverse from ever happening.
And I think Joss might, just might kill Mel, which will make me very sad. I mean why not? If he's going to undo that whole future it would be just like Joss to give us a heartwrenching moment with a character we love before he does it.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Aug 11, 2008 9:39:43 GMT -5
I would have been okay with it being Willow if we hadn't seen the cover for issue 19. Now it seems to obvious to be true. Strong hints of Dru and then the cover of 19. I didn't expect us to be able to tell who it was, I thought that Joss would surprise us big time.
But story-wise, I'm happy that it's Willow. It has so much potential.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Aug 12, 2008 2:00:14 GMT -5
Okay, you all know my original view. Having read the book, I retained it.
Until a couple of days later, when I realized what I'd actually seen.
Alternate Universe Theory (as I like to call it) is essentually what fanfiction is based on. Hear me out, I'm not saying the comics are anything like fanfics, but this is not without precedent in the Buffyverse. The theory is that there are many unknown universe, and in any place where more than one action can be taken, alternate universes are created based on the road not taken. Thus, infinate universes based on one thread.
The precedent here is The Wishverse. We know it's still there, because at the end of Dopplegangland, we saw what happened to Vampire Willow when they sent her back. The very fact there was a back to send her to proves that within Buffy, parallel universes can and do exist.
The Willow we're looking at now is the punchline to Ebenezer Buffy's guided tour by the Ghost of Christmas Future.
She's not Dark Willow of season 6, if she were she'd do things very differently than she seems to be doing now. This is a brand new alternate universe Willow. Yes, she's from a different place in the timeline, but that's not all there is to her. Something made her this way, she has something she's trying to do.
We're not having a flashback to what I've always thought was a dull season, we're looking out the window at another world.
I've never liked Fray, because it's just not Buffy, but...
This Willow is kinda striking a new chord with me. Yes, this is in retrospect of having read the issue and not quite processed it the required way for liking her, but...
We're looking at a Helena Boheme Carter-esque (Think Bellatrix Lestrange in the Harry Potter films) interpretation of Willow having come through an age and grown weary of it.
I think I could come to like it. We'll have to see what the rest of the arch is like.
Also, purple looks good on her.
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