Season 8 - Predators and Prey: Issue 23

[Paul]

Mar 6, 2009 9:42:33 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Mar 6, 2009 9:06:10 GMT -5 Paul said:

She's not quite "Dark Buffy" but she's definitely "Darker Buffy". This was evident from the very first arc, by her ruthlessness when it came to fighting human, most likely innocent, soldiers. She and Satsu were just slicing through them, and leaving Willow to clean up the mess. At the end of the arc, Buffy shows little concern upon learning she's "at war with the human race". It became obvious in "Anywhere But Here" with the bank heist. Buffy can rationalise that all she wants, but at the end of the day she was comitting a crime (remember S6 Buffy's respect for human rules?) to further her own agenda. Willow saw this and knew from experience what a slippery slope Buffy was on, using her power to get what she wants. Then in "Time of Your Life", I was shocked by Buffy's willingness to sacrifice innocent humans for the bigger picture. Again, it can be justified, but Buffy's still become a harder character than she was in the show. She's not a villain, just a darker kind of hero.

That's a direction she's been heading in since the end of season 2. She's always put the bigger picture first, no matter how much she has to cry about it afterwards.

Her actions against the soldiers in the first arc were self-defense. "Innocence" on the soldiers' part was really irrelevant, as it always is in a wartime combat situation. They were soldiers, told to fight an enemy. Said enemy has every right to fight them back with all necessary force. General Voll's aim was to destroy Buffy and her Slayers. Human or not, the right to self-defense is universal. Any other decision on Buffy's part in this situation would have been suicidal, and homicidal, considering it would have gotten all her friends killed as well.

Note that Buffy specified beforehand to go for the wound, not the kill, when fighting humans. She did not have to do so. She had Willow heal them up afterwards, which she also did not have to do. Buffy is finding out that being a sucker is incompatible with being a hero. But even in these extreme circumstances, killing humans is something to be avoided if at all possible.

The "using power to get what she wants" argument was brought sharply into focus with this issue. Using power to carry out an Ocean's 11 style heist of insured money to help save the world? OK. Using power to oppress and hurt people and put them out of their homes? Not OK.

Buffy needs to make moral decisions based on shades of gray, and her capacity to do that is still present and healthy (if not always altogether correct, but none of us could say differently about ourselves either.)

She'll get darker, she'll make mistakes, just like she always has. But I don't see any hint of villainy or evil about her, or even the seeds of it. Will that change as the season goes on? I don't know. But right now her hat is white with just a tinge of gray... same as it's been since she was staking vamps at Hemery High.

I just remember being shocked by the viciousness of that scene at the time, the way Buffy just sliced and diced her way through the soldiers. Although... come to think of it, she did slice and dice the Knights of Byzantium. And they weren't healed afterwards. So it's not unprecedented. I'm not complaining, I actually thought it was really badass and cool (any scene involving the Scythe is badass and cool).

I never said Buffy was evily or villainly, she's still very much the hero. But she's a darker kind of hero than, say... Superman. You're right, that's always been a part of her character (killing Angel really screwed her up, I think a lot of Buffy's behaviour can be traced back to that moment) but it has been particularly apparent in S8, what with the bank robbery and the leaving civilians to die and killing her best friend.

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

I actually really did enjoy this issue. Definitely my favorite of Predators and Prey so far (not that it had much to go up against). I agree that the scene with Buffy releasing the demon on the Slayers caught me off guard...but it's nowhere near Angel locking the lawyers in the room in AtS.

[Ethros]

Got it today. It was a fun read with the team up of Buffy & Andrew, but in the scheme of things it was yet another waste of time.
What actually was the *point* of the issue? To show Andrew is part of the team/family?

We already knew he was... pointless

[stakey]

Hmmmm...Im not too sure what to make of this issue.

the first few pages, basically the ones the preview showed were AWESOME. Loved them, a highlight being Andrews rant about Battlestar, (Ive always been mega bitter towards the writers for killing off Billy and suddenly having Lee marry off with Dualla...but thats another topic for another day...I miss Billy!!)

but ermm...moving on...issue 23...it seemed to gradually go downhill. Not majorly and non of it was specifically bad but the writing just seemed to get a bit lazier as it went along and Simone wasn't bad ass enough for me. I wanted her to be all up in buffys face more than she actually was.

I wasnt a big fan of the art this issue either, again like the writing it started great and seemed to go downhill as I kept reading and everything just seemed rather rushed in the last half.

Plus nothing was really achieved whatsoever plot wise for the season 8 arc. Really really loved Andrews final acceptance which was nice in plot sense but yeh, nothing majorly moving the cogs of season 8s arc...

Id say about 7/10.

(Oh and I loved the terminator sequel reference! Bring back LINDA HAMILTON!! YES!! Me and Drew.G are pretty much on the same Nerd wavelength. haha)

[SlayerLV]

I thought it was an OK issue. I loved Andrew talking about everything pop culture on the trip.

[monkeypie]

yeah, i share much the same sentiment. It wasn't bad, it just did very little for me.
I got about halfway and just realised i was actually a little bored.
it just didnt seem as snappy dialogue in comparison with other issues

[Lukee]

The only thing i would have liked to have seen differ would have been for Simone to have been Faith badass like. However i understand her not wanting to go up against Buffy because of the respect for her, but i also understand Simone on the level of it's them against the humans outlook. However i don't agree with the way she is going about it because it isn't helping the case with slayers really.

I was not shocked with Buffy letting the monster unleash on them because to be fair they are slayers and they had guns she knew they would kill it and it would harm some of the slayers having to let them regroup. Two birds with one stone in my opinion.

I like that Andrew has finally been added as a Scooby. It was nice and sweet his talks with Buffy.

[magicegidius]

I liked this issue... i liked the reccuring talk about guns and the darker path Buffy is choosing. This issue finally changes Andrew from a flat to a round character (although they tried it before during season 7). I think he might become more important than we all think.

BTW, did anyone notice that Simone's plan wasn't that bad at all... Fight back every threat from humans... choosing bad over worse... I love her character; it has the potention to grow darker than Faith has ever been...

[Lukee]

I'm hoping she will be way darker then Faith or Gigi!! Who knows maybe Buffy will go after her and find Faith trying to help Simone with Giles and then get the wrong idea. Who knows would be cool to see Buffy find out Faith and Giles are working together!!

[deathquaker]

Best issue, IMO, in several months. Last three or four issues hadn't done it for me for a variety of reasons.

The bizarre thing is I am neither a Buffy nor an Andrew fan... both characters I have trouble relating to (for very different reasons, but still). But the dialogue and interaction between the two characters was so well done it was hard not to go for the ride... maybe I like them both together as a team--they work surprisingly well together. Or maybe it's the Daniel Craig thing. I "get" him too... maybe that's just the magical key of human relatability.

Simone's got a lot of potential; hope she's developed a little more if/when we see her again.

Cannot wait till the Faith issue next.

[Nicholas]

Buffy has always been a little bit darker, well at least since Season 3. She has occasionally ventured into a dark side persay, but has never fully fallen headfirst into it, which I think is a very good idea for her character and for the idea of a Hero as well. i think its very important for someone who is deemed a hero and puts their lives first for the betterment of life to understand with perfect clarity what exactly they are fighting against.

Buffy has always been the Batman of superheroes to me with a mix of Spider-man as well, simply because at one point or another they have ventured to the dark side and have sacrificed many things to get the job done. Buffy has the resposibility aspect of Spider-man but the shades of gray aspect of Batman.

When it comes to Buffy hurting the very things which she has sworn to protect (humans), I think she is very justified in the things that she does. The Knights attacked her simply because they felt that taking a human life would save the world, even if it meant killing others who were in their way (the Scoobies). Buffy only attacked/killed them simply because she was protecting not only herself, but her loved ones. I think that Buffy telling Giles that she would sacrifice Dawn to save the world if she was faced with the choice again, is sometimes taken at face value. It has only been two years since she was originally faced with that option and we dont know if she would actually take a life, but we can assume that she would as she told Robin that she would also let Spike kill him if he got in his way. Dawn means much more to her, so where I understand her killing Dawn in order to save humanity, I strongly believe that she would make the same choice as she would have the first time. If it were anyone else, I think she would sacrifice them.

[alycat7]

I'm a bit indifferent about this issue. I don't hate it, I don't love it.

[Mathieu]

Ok, I'm kind of lazy right now and I probably should be going to bed but I'm going to give you a short list of the things I enjoyed and the things that let me down in this last issue. I sure enjoyed this one better than Swell though, no doubt about that.

I liked:
- Jo Chen's cover: amazing likeness of Buffy!
- the humor all along the issue
- the great dynamic between the two characters
- the fact that for the first time I felt a little something that the TV show had
- the Italian island
- the twist at the end (I do think the spider thing didn't stand a chance against a whole bunch of slayers but just my opinion)
- the characters' development as a whole
- the Buffy/Simone facedown

I didn't like:
- some stuff that Buffy and Andrew said that didn't come across very well, sometimes sounded forced, not to say cheezy
- the fact that the little girl in Italy spoke English (You speak English? Yes, they taught us in school.): LAME!!!! Capital "L"!!! She must be in 4th grade and she's fluent? My a**, she probably knows hello and goodbye and that is it. Give me a gigantic break.
- the fact that Buffy said she's been friend with Xander for 8 years... Timeline people!!! I know this is not supposed to matter but we all know she met Xander back in 1996 (right?) and then they have the nerve to make pop culture references such as Heath Ledger, which is very right nowy.
- the non progression of the main plot
- the ending, cheezy with the family thing and almost unecessary as Andrew has been around for a while now and I don't like it when they say things as loudly "Readers, listen now, Andrew is part of the gang!!! It's official and stuff". Unless they want to lead us on... I would still think they made it to obvious though.

I'm done! Who concurs here?

[Whedon Fan]

This issue was IMO all just a big set up to make us like Andrew more so that when he is killed off at the end of season 8 we will care a bit more. Honestley I've always liked Andrew so I don't need this little character 'push' to make me like him any more than I do. I did like the Buffy/Simone fights, although I would have prefered them to use actual swords rather than fencing weapons. Nice issue for a quick read during the day, it didn't advance seaon 8 but it was still a good read. Over all I give it

7/10

[wenxina]

I've been reading a bunch of comments lately about how #23 did not advance the the S8 plot, and I have no idea how people came to this conclusion. The main storyline now is that Slayers are social outcasts, super-powered villains if you will. The very fact that Simone and her gang annexed a small town is just an extension of the aforementioned plot point: Slayers are terrorists and tyrants. Witnessing it firsthand has given Buffy even more to chew on now, knowing that these are repercussions of her actions. All these points indicate that #23 did indeed advance the storyline, if in no way else than to further establish the current status quo. Which is what the entire "Predators and Prey" arc is supposed to do anyway.

In no way am I championing #23... I found it to be passably good, but was rather let down by it in general. I'm just saying that I don't think that saying that it didn't advance the S8 plotline at all is fair.

[stakey]

Mar 11, 2009 8:10:57 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I've been reading a bunch of comments lately about how #23 did not advance the the S8 plot, and I have no idea how people came to this conclusion. The main storyline now is that Slayers are social outcasts, super-powered villains if you will. The very fact that Simone and her gang annexed a small town is just an extension of the aforementioned plot point: Slayers are terrorists and tyrants. Witnessing it firsthand has given Buffy even more to chew on now, knowing that these are repercussions of her actions. All these points indicate that #23 did indeed advance the storyline, if in no way else than to further establish the current status quo. Which is what the entire "Predators and Prey" arc is supposed to do anyway.

In no way am I championing #23... I found it to be passably good, but was rather let down by it in general. I'm just saying that I don't think that saying that it didn't advance the S8 plotline at all is fair.

I never really thought of it in that way so I kinda agree with your point now.

I think its just that we've had 23 months of season 8 now and I keep waiting for something really big to sweep me off my feet plotwise.

Yes theres been evil willow/ the castle blowing up etc but none of it really shocked me and I found the entire time of your life arc horrendous quite frankly.

The last time I really felt shocked was the death of Renee. Since then Iv just been reading the issues, enjoying them but not really getting any longlasting effect from them unlike nffy and watg.

Im hoping when predators and prey is done with and we get into Retreat itll return to form because I can imagine from a writers point a view it must be hard to really convey what they want to get across in such a limited (length wise I mean) media. Especially something as big as Vampires becoming common knowledge. I just feel its too big a plot twist for them to deal with realistically in the buffyverse and its just ended up with some not bad just okayish issues.

Saying that however, I do have high hopes for 'Safe'!!

[Mathieu]

Mar 11, 2009 7:33:08 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

This issue was IMO all just a big set up to make us like Andrew more so that when he is killed off at the end of season 8 we will care a bit more. Honestley I've always liked Andrew so I don't need this little character 'push' to make me like him any more than I do. I did like the Buffy/Simone fights, although I would have prefered them to use actual swords rather than fencing weapons. Nice issue for a quick read during the day, it didn't advance seaon 8 but it was still a good read. Over all I give it

7/10

Thanks for giving a fair grade to Predators and Prey. At least your 7/10 reflects the review you've made of this issue.

It always startles me to see people write stuff like "I hated this issue so I will give it a 9/10". I mean guys, it's OK to give a grade between 5 and 10. It will allow you to give a better mark when a very good issue comes around and to differentiate the issues you really enjoyed from those you didn't like as much. It doesn't make sense to me that some people will only grade the issues in a scale from 8 to 10.

[Rebecca]

I noticed something that might be interesting. I should have noticed it in the preview, but it didn't hit me until I had it in front of me.

Page 2 the top two images, we see Buffy (supposedly) VO: "The bonds between us are tight and unbreakable... you hurt one of us, you're taking on all of us." But we also see Andrew running toward Buffy, through two slayerettes. My spidey-sense is tingling.

Perhaps the family bonds strengthened by this issue aren't as tight or unbreakable as the VO says. It could be speaking to Andrew's bond with the family via Buffy, or it could be speaking to the bonds of the entire organization. It has already broken off to some extent with Simone, and it could serve toward a larger plot in the future. I may be looking too much into it for clues for where the season is headed, but it still bears mentioning.

[patxshand]

Touched, I was under the impression--based on the placement of that and the wording--that that wasn't Buffy's internal thougths, but Andrew's.

[Mathieu]

I just assumed it was Andrews thoughts because he was the first character we saw but now that I'm reading it again I really think it sounds like Buffy. Thanks, now I'm confused because of you guys ;-)