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Post by wenxina on Apr 3, 2009 8:32:04 GMT -5
Ditto on the letters section, all the narrow-minded drivel just pissed me off...  You guys weren't seriously amused by just how hung-up some people were about that tryst? My favorite one was where this lady (I think it was a girl) claimed that because of it, parents would no longer allow children to watch BtVS. Yeah... uh huh. And Scott Allie, in true form... I love it when he gets snarky. And I'm not being snarky about that.  |
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stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
2nd in command to Mr pointy
"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
Posts: 676
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Post by stakey on Apr 3, 2009 8:41:39 GMT -5
Yeh that was definately the most ridiculous letter Iv ever read in season 8.
I understand people not liking the pairing, everyone has couples they dislike riley/buffy as an obvious example.
It was just the way it was put like 'Urgh buffy is rubbish because she is now Gay. We have willow to be Gay, we dont need buffy to be as well'
Just ridiculous and annoying.
*SLAP*
Just reread the issue and really wish it was at least a two parter. I do like the ending, with the on coming vampires and faith and gile emerging from the building with bundles of stakes and Faith is like lesson one. aim of the heart.
If I was doing this issue, I would have started the issue with those panels, then had a few pages of quick flash-back showing faith/giles coming to the village, killing this demon that was keeping out the vampires, and then have the other half of it with Faith and giles prepping these slayers/villagers for the vampires and then having the fight shown as the climax of the one shot.
Of course that still doesnt leave a lot of character development but I think getting rid of that annoying and BEYOND cliched character of whatshername would have helped. Showing faith imparting her skills to a group of un experienced slayers/villagers would have been nice and would have allowed for some sort of small character development I think.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 3, 2009 8:54:39 GMT -5
It just astonishes me that there could still be so many homophobes lurking in the fandom. Hasn't Joss done enough to drive them away yet?
He should have Buffy and Satsu go to Massachusetts and get married. Just to kick a little more sand in those people's faces.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Apr 3, 2009 9:04:08 GMT -5
Ditto on the letters section, all the narrow-minded drivel just pissed me off... You guys weren't seriously amused by just how hung-up some people were about that tryst? My favorite one was where this lady (I think it was a girl) claimed that because of it, parents would no longer allow children to watch BtVS. Yeah... uh huh. And Scott Allie, in true form... I love it when he gets snarky. And I'm not being snarky about that. Yeah, Buffy banging a girl is terrible, but all that S&M sex with an undead murderer, that was setting a good example to the kiddies... And Willow and Tara? They were just really good friends.  I honestly have difficulty believing that somebody so ignorant could actually be a Buffy fan. And there was so many people complaining about Buffy being "gay"...  Mind you, that was the first time I've actually read the whole letter section in a while, so I suppose there was some morbid entertainment there.  EDIT: I don't like the way I worded the first sentence of this post because it sounds like I disappove of S&M when I don't. Hope it was clear I was just making fun of the prudish letter writer... :unsure: |
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on Apr 3, 2009 10:19:30 GMT -5
The thing is, by all indication, Faith was done wallowing by the end of "NFFY". She was done trying to run and hide. She wanted to be proactive girl, the one to go out and save all the little lost Slayers. Which leads to the main disconnect between this issue and the "NFFY" arc in general. Instead of wanting to play social worker to AWOL Slayers, Faith is being the standoffish big sister, which is regression in my eyes. See that would be too easy for me. Did Angel ever completely get over being too hard on himself? He learnt a lot of lessons along the way about being a hero, making an amends, helping people ect. However, not coming down on himself seems to be one area that he struggled with the most. It's part of his character, it's who he is. I don't see Faith any differently to Angel. Faith is playing social worker, she's on a mission to help slayers and has done so. She's kept all those promises but I'd find it too easy if we saw Faith in this issue as a girl happy with herself and with what she was doing. This Faith seemed far more appropriate to me. I wouldn’t buy that Faith made such big changes in such a short amount of time. It’s taken Angel years, I wouldn’t expect anymore from Faith. Whilst Faith/Giles are a partnership I think it's a little hard to imagine them both being completely equal. By Giles' nature he's used to telling people off, Faith isn't. Once again I just didn't see anything I didn't expect to see. That’s part of who Giles is. Each to their own They can't possibly please everybody. As I said, this issue has somewhat confused me. Some issues you read and just know it's going to divide the fandom either way. But this issue took me by complete surprise. I just don't get some of the negative reaction towards it. I just can't see the faults. It's a little confusing for me, there must be something I'm missing. I think I have to disagree on this. Whilst Faith relished the kill she was fairly lazy about the actual slaying. In 'Helpless' she was on a "Unannounced walkabout" and Giles states how she isn't interested in proper training. Buffy even calls herself "the good one." Faith seemed pretty blasé about slaying. Yes she enjoyed a good kill but she was pretty lazy when it came to the big picture. I could completely see Faith not giving a damn that a vampire got away. That interpretation works too, but I do think some of her inferiority complex stems from the slaying. She hated that Buffy was being viewed as THE slayer, she seemed really scorned when Post calls her attack on the demon a "blunder." We just seem to be the opposite I found Issue#21 not very good at all, Issue #22 slightly better, Issue #23 pretty great and Issue #24 pretty darn good. Weird lol. Could anyone actually state what they found about the characterization was off? Emmie? I just need some examples to see where people are coming from? |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 3, 2009 11:10:33 GMT -5
See that would be too easy for me. Did Angel ever completely get over being too hard on himself? He learnt a lot of lessons along the way about being a hero, making an amends, helping people ect. However, not coming down on himself seems to be one area that he struggled with the most. It's part of his character, it's who he is. I don't see Faith any differently to Angel. Faith is playing social worker, she's on a mission to help slayers and has done so. She's kept all those promises but I'd find it too easy if we saw Faith in this issue as a girl happy with herself and with what she was doing. This Faith seemed far more appropriate to me. I wouldn’t buy that Faith made such big changes in such a short amount of time. It’s taken Angel years, I wouldn’t expect anymore from Faith. I wasn't expecting Faith to be the happy camper, but the point is, Faith wasn't helpful. As I said, she was the standoffish big sister, instead of the big sister that wanted to play social worker. There was no evidence that she's taken her role as social worker seriously, until the end, where she tells Courtney to "Aim for the heart". Whilst Faith/Giles are a partnership I think it's a little hard to imagine them both being completely equal. By Giles' nature he's used to telling people off, Faith isn't. Once again I just didn't see anything I didn't expect to see. That’s part of who Giles is. Faith isn't new to shutting people down. Faith may not be used to telling people off, but she's used to telling them to stuff it when she doesn't want to hear it. When she was in a position of leadership, she shut Kennedy down pretty quickly, and silenced the entire crew when they were "arguing about how to argue". This is Faith's gig. She wanted to do it. Giles is just along for the ride. I think I have to disagree on this. Whilst Faith relished the kill she was fairly lazy about the actual slaying. In 'Helpless' she was on a "Unannounced walkabout" and Giles states how she isn't interested in proper training. Buffy even calls herself "the good one." Faith seemed pretty blasé about slaying. Yes she enjoyed a good kill but she was pretty lazy when it came to the big picture. I could completely see Faith not giving a damn that a vampire got away. I loved that part where Buffy refers to herself as the "good Slayer" when she's pretty much the complete opposite of what would traditionally be considered a good Slayer; i.e. taking orders. I guess with the whole not giving a damn bit, I'd tack it on as an extension of my karmic tally interpretation. That interpretation works too, but I do think some of her inferiority complex stems from the slaying. She hated that Buffy was being viewed as THE slayer, she seemed really scorned when Post calls her attack on the demon a "blunder." She didn't like to be told that she wasn't doing something right. Buffy displayed the same annoyance when Giles remarked on her poor form in S1. EDIT: For me, the characterization was off in a lot of areas. The biggest being Faith being portrayed as a sullen teenager. But my biggest peeve was how wasted Faith and Giles felt in the big picture. If you're going to put two hard-hitters in a story, they should be able to shine and carry a story through. In this case, it was the opposite, with them essentially going through the motions to go along with the plot. As I said before, Faith appeared a lot, but did or said very little of any gravity. At least, that's how I read it. |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Apr 3, 2009 12:19:32 GMT -5
Faith isn't new to shutting people down. Faith may not be used to telling people off, but she's used to telling them to stuff it when she doesn't want to hear it. When she was in a position of leadership, she shut Kennedy down pretty quickly, and silenced the entire crew when they were "arguing about how to argue". This is Faith's gig. She wanted to do it. Giles is just along for the ride. She was a kick-arse leader to Team Angel in season four as well, now that you mention it. I love that scene where she waltzes into the Hyperion and tells them they're going to do things her way... EDIT: For me, the characterization was off in a lot of areas. The biggest being Faith being portrayed as a sullen teenager. But my biggest peeve was how wasted Faith and Giles felt in the big picture. If you're going to put two hard-hitters in a story, they should be able to shine and carry a story through. In this case, it was the opposite, with them essentially going through the motions to go along with the plot. As I said before, Faith appeared a lot, but did or said very little of any gravity. At least, that's how I read it. Totally agree. Btw, Emmie, I found your Whedonesque review of this issue ( whedonesque.com/comments/19714#302413 ) absolutely hilarious, especially the brilliantly sarky "Giles' Dialogue" section. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 3, 2009 12:29:15 GMT -5
I'll repost it here. I resisted because I was being very negative about it, but here goes:
Does anyone else think Giles came off sounding like an idiot in this piece?
Giles' Dialogue:
1. "Slayer Sanctuary?" (Yes, Giles repeat what Courtney said in a 'stating the obvious' manner.)
2. "Tell me more about this Slayer Sanctuary." (Yes, please do so the story can move forward from your robotic dialogue.)
3. "We need to find this place." (No shit.)
4. "We just made it. This is the only train that reaches Hanselstadt. It's deep in the mountains." (Thank God you were here to tell us where we are, Giles, otherwise the audience would have to think for themselves without you here to point out the obvious...or maybe read a location bubble in the top corner so that you could actually sound like Giiiiiiiiles.)
5. "If these girls are hiding here, seeing you might get them back in the fight." (Again, thanks for expressing this in the most linguistically and intellectually simplistic way possible. 'Cause that's clearly in-character for you when written by Krueger.)
6. "Vampires. I don't understand. What are they waiting for?" (Wow, thanks for remembering to wear your glasses today Giles or we'd never have known that those were vampires out there and that they're all creepily waiting outside of town. No please, don't have an emotional reaction or an intelligent thought, Giles. You might hurt yourself. And I'm going to keep calling you Giles so that I remember that's who you're supposed to be.)
7. "You're too hard on yourself, Faith." (Good thing you brought your Chicken Soup for the Soul on the train, Giles. What would Faith have done without that sage advice?)
8. "Enough, Faith." (Brief. Yeah, it's better when you don't go on. Makes your idiotic OC-ness less evident. Thanks.)
And I could go on but it's starting to bore me even more. Seems like Krueger took Giles' role as the exposition guy way too literally. I'd do the same for Faith, but I think it might make me cry.
The dialogue lacks zing, lacks character, lacks depth. Oh, and when did Faith start calling Giles "G"? She always seemed to go more towards the formal "Giles". And when did Giles become a guy who let anyone call him "G" without comment? How many times has Giles said "stop" to Xander for calling him "G-man"? Oh wait, that's right. We're not reading the true characters and their accompanying history like we did in No Future For You. We're reading a metaphoric tale that uses Faith and Giles as vehicles, pushing the characters down and molding them to the story til they're only recognizable by their names and the way Richards passingly draws their likenesses.
As for the vision the demon draws up to torment Faith with, "The Third" has got to be one of the lamest concepts ever. At least the First Evil had that source of all things bad and scary going for it. Faith being shit-scared by a measly little vampire in a vision makes no sense. If Krueger had used Kakistos or Faith's first watcher to torment her, now there would be some emotional bling to write home about. But "The Third"? Yawn. I mean, who'd be scared of the guy who won the Bronze medal anyway? You came in third? Next!
I'm not sure how Krueger did it, but he managed to make the edgiest characters in Buffy Season 8 right now - the rogue Slayer who saves the world her way and the watcher who's out there to help her, both fightin' that evil while dealing with their dark pasts - read like characters in a Disney version of a dark fairytale. Sigh. There are so many plot holes in this issue I can't even truly do it justice. Why do the villagers sacrifice their children instead of moving away? Why do the vampires all hang out right outside the town instead of going somewhere they can actually score a meal? Why does Giles sound like an idiot? Oh wait, that wasn't a plot hole. Sorry.
My hopes are high that Petrie will restore some shine to the story next month and I'm expecting a better translation to the comic medium than Espenson's initial foray because Petrie's work is always so visual (Buffy and Faith with knives at each other's throats, Spike kneeling on the ground looking up at Buffy in Fool For Love). Here's hopin'.
This was just...not good. Not only did Giles and Faith read as dumbed down, but I think I might have actually lost brain cells from the egregiously low expectations that Krueger has placed on the audience. My least favorite issue of Season 8 bar none.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 3, 2009 12:40:06 GMT -5
ZING!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 3, 2009 14:14:10 GMT -5
Hahahaha. Emmie that was genius. *karma* Part of me wishes you did Faith's unfunny one-liners. (Which is basically all she did).
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Post by Emmie on Apr 3, 2009 14:18:28 GMT -5
Hahahaha. Emmie that was genius. *karma* Part of me wishes you did Faith's unfunny one-liners. (Which is basically all she did). Well now I have to. You have issued the challenge sir. Expect it sometime tomorrow. I'd do it now but I have to go to work and then my time will be taken with squeeing over Dollhouse The Awakening when I get home tonight. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 3, 2009 14:21:42 GMT -5
I kind of love you.  |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 3, 2009 14:50:58 GMT -5
Damn! I think I may miss both T: SCC and Dollhouse tonight! Oh well, Hulu tomorrow... but I'll be looking out for that Faith mockery. And wtf... didn't I throw down the proverbial gauntlet last night? I see how it is, Em... I'm no longer special. Boo!
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stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
2nd in command to Mr pointy
"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
Posts: 676
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Post by stakey on Apr 3, 2009 15:20:07 GMT -5
HAH
emmie..that was perfection.
totally summed up this issue.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Apr 3, 2009 16:35:04 GMT -5
Emmie's comments were, BY FAR, much more well-written than this issue. I also had trouble with everything here (can't think of something I like). The annoying young slayer, the lack of characterization, the art also (Faith is looking too emo. Every panel there she looks like depressed and ass-face), and also the incredibly pretentious plot. Krueger may have thought that this tale would blow us all away with sharp dialogues (poorly poor) and a suspenseful and twisty plot (those things about the kids and the vampires waiting to get feed, c'mon, give it the WTFish award). Failed. But above all of those dawngantic flaws, what really made me hate this plot AND script was the pretentious to be a truly deeply psychological journey through Faith and Giles' deepest "fears and needs". I mean, if Krueger can't even get the character's voices right, how could he possibly bring Faith and Giles' psyche inside out in any efficient and insightful way? Those are decade-long characters that we already know and love too much. We've seen the darkness in their minds so many times by brilliant hands. They're flesh-and-blood real to us. Their minds are so rich and complex. If you wanna play with that in a plot, you gotta know how to write richly and complexly in 24 pages. If you can't, you'll sound pretentiously FAILED. OR, you could try to be Brian K. Vaughan (even he had several issues to work with). I mean, the writer thought that simply mentioning Jenny would be enough for us to buy that Giles would "die of regret" Everything that was supposed to be insightful here barely scratched the surface. I think Krueger aimed waaaaayyy too deep in this issue, and that was the biggest of his mistakes. If you wanna go deep, you gotta dig deep and carefully. A simple funny action tale would probably sound more successful. Or not (C'mon, vampires waiting outside town?? THEY'RE ALWAYS HUNGRY! C'MON! Do those citzens taste better than any regular edible and reachble human? Also, vampires love children's blood. Why would they make such effort to eat a bunch of old people?). I feel like the whole month of waiting to see Faith and Giles again was a waste. The worst thing in the season so far. Well, anyways, every tv season also had at least one big plot-and/or-script failure, so... |
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Post by sagewoman on Apr 3, 2009 19:27:47 GMT -5
I bow to the godess of words -------- EMMIE!!!!!
You captured it perfectly. I thought the reason it seemed ho-hum to me was because I read Angel - Blood and Trenches Part II, first. No comparison in terms of excitement, character development and artwork.
And, I'm looking forward to Faith's one liners too!!
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Post by Emmie on Apr 3, 2009 21:00:32 GMT -5
but I'll be looking out for that Faith mockery. And wtf... didn't I throw down the proverbial gauntlet last night? I see how it is, Em... I'm no longer special. Boo! Haha sorry! We talk about so much stuff I can barely tell when we're just going with hypotheticals or a gauntlet is actually thrown. My bad. You know you're my boooooooooooy. And now I'm kinda confused here. Am I just writing to mock Faith's dialogue (which can be done so easily like with Giles) or am I rewriting her dialogue? |
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 3, 2009 21:27:42 GMT -5
I thought it was to mock her dialogue, what you pondered doing earlier |
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Apr 3, 2009 21:43:44 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent, excellent, Emmie!!
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Post by Emmie on Apr 3, 2009 22:32:54 GMT -5
I thought it was to mock her dialogue, what you pondered doing earlier Sagewoman looking forward to the Faith oneliners made me wonder if I was supposed to be making them better somehow in addition to mocking. ;D |
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