dane5by5
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
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Post by dane5by5 on Apr 3, 2009 23:32:47 GMT -5
I'm surprised that people have been so hypercritical of this issue, and think it's more due to the fact that it didn't turn out as expected, than a statement on the quality of the issue.
It's amusing that some people are annoyed by Faith calling Giles "G". Even if she never called him that, she's been travelling with him for months, it's safe to assume she would be more comfortable with him and it's very in character for her to give people nicknames, it's one of her most notable traits. Some people seem to be very resistant to character developement, and this is not synonymous to OOC. Faith also had plenty of witty lines in this issue, for instance "Why they always gotta be so chatty?". If that's not a typical Faith line, I don't know what is...
The introduction of Courtney has raised another issue, which is that people either complain of no new characters being introduced (and too many old characters returning), and when they are, complain that they take valuable story time away from well liked and developed characters, this is once again the case with Courtney. I thought she was a nice addition to the issue, and hope she stays with Faith and Giles when they return to the main story.
The art was great, much better likeness than Georges Jeanty, and in my opinion, Cliff Richards also makes better use of the page, with the layout of panels.
A poster on whedonesque said it best regarding Duncan's "Jenny died because of Buffy" speech. That in those early seasons, Giles reported almost everything to the WC. It was a very political organisation that would lead to gossip regarding the current Watcher and his charge. Now that someone has mentioned a cut line from "Touched" relating to this, I'm curious, does anyone have a copy of the original script for this episode?
This issue presents the insight that Faith has a deep seated guilt that can be traced back to when she was first called, allowing the third vampire she faced to escape. Now that Faith is helping the newly called Slayers, she is revisiting these supressed feelings of inferiority that became full blown when she was introduced to Buffy.
The demon and the town in general are an interesting conceit, now that Slayers are retreating from the world, they are being exploited.
For the people who thought the end of "No Future For You" was the end of Faith's cynicism and sense of inferiority, I can understand how this issue could be a let down and regression, but in the Buffyverse, characters like Faith and Angel never lose that sense of darkness. They are always striving for redemption. The end of this issue indicates just how much Faith has changed on this journey.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 4, 2009 0:14:57 GMT -5
dane5by5: I'd be fine if it didn't turn out as expected, as long as the quality of the writing stayed top notch. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case for me. I agree that the comment about how chatty vampires are is typical Faith, but it more or less dies there. Count the number of pages before you get another "Faith" line. I have no problems with the introduction of new players. I was perfectly welcoming of the Scythe-activated Slayers... all 1500 or so of them. The unnamed Buffy decoy was an example of a well-executed introduction to a new character. Even without her name, she made an impact. Courtney served pretty much no other purpose, other than to point Faith and Giles in the direction of the Slayer Sanctuary. While it can be argued that she was also meant as Faith's charge, it's pretty thin here. For one, Faith isn't acting at all like she's supposed to. Yes, change takes a while, but we're talking about the girl who decided at the end of "NFFY" that she would reach out to wayward Slayers to save them from Gigi's fate. Here, we have a sullen teenager (that's regression for you, shave off a few years too) who doesn't exactly offer a hand to Courtney. What exactly Faith's plan for rehabilitation was, is never clear. But I doubt it was simply ignoring and hurling insults at the girls. And sorry to disappoint, but Courtney isn't going with Faith and Giles. Straight from the mouth of one Scott Allie in the latest Q&A, which btw, you should participate in. I will disagree on the issue of the art. I don't think that Richards utilized the space well at all. I also don't think that he quite gets dynamic scenes. I will not deny being biased towards Jeanty's style; Richards' work has never really impressed me at all. In fact, IMO the mediocrity of the work as a whole here (art and writing) makes me feel like if "Safe" was holed in with the previous run of BtVS comics, some people may be none the wiser. But I've argued the art angle in my original review on page 12, I think, so I'll leave it at that. And back to the issue of Faith's character arc. I didn't think that the end of "NFFY" was "the end of Faith's cynicism and sense of inferiority". But I thought that she had taken a positive step towards addressing those issues. However, as mentioned multiple times now, her resolve seems to have gone, which is completely antithetical to what Faith stands for, both literally and figuratively. Say what you want about Faith, but when her heart's set on something, she usually goes all the way through with it. For example, check out the risks she was willing to take just to save Angel in S4 of AtS. The fact that you're arguing that "the end of this issue indicates just how much Faith has changed on this journey" just reaffirms my statement about character regression. She was already at this point at the end of "NFFY". And now she's right back there, in that very moment, in Giles' living room. Instead of moving forward, we backpedalled an entire arc, so that a mediocre writer could rehash the life lessons that Faith already learned. The only redeeming point of the last page is when Faith finally takes up her charge to be a mentor to Courtney. But it's too little too late. That's what she should have done from the start, instead of mouthing off one-liners that essentially don't mean anything at all. So maybe you're right, I am disappointed because this issue went against my expectations. But I'm not talking about plot here. I'm talking about quality. I'm loving the constructive back and forth we've been having about this issue, but it really is a case of to each their own.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 4, 2009 1:00:08 GMT -5
I'm surprised that people have been so hypercritical of this issue, and think it's more due to the fact that it didn't turn out as expected, than a statement on the quality of the issue. Honestly, I wasn't expecting anything really from this issue. Except good characterization. The off-voices threw me out of the story the few pages right after the preview. It wasn't that I prejudged this piece at all. I actually liked the preview quite a bit. That one line by Faith there worked for me. When Giles opened his mouth though, oh boy. The preview probably played so well because Giles didn't speak in it. Regarding "G", yeah Faith gives people nicknames. But does she call Willow "W" or Xander "X"? The only person she's ever given a nickname based on the first letter of their name was Buffy. With others, she improvises. With Willow, she calls her "Red". The nickname one-note was just indicative of Krueger misunderstanding and mistranslating a Faithism in an inappropriate manner. |
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Apr 4, 2009 8:58:40 GMT -5
In Go Ask Malice, it's said that Faith calls people by the first letter of their name if she thinks their real name is too ridiculous to use. She calls her social worker "V" when her real name is Vanity.
Not canon or anything, but an interesting little theory...
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Post by wenxina on Apr 4, 2009 9:05:56 GMT -5
In Go Ask Malice, it's said that Faith calls people by the first letter of their name if she thinks their real name is too ridiculous to use. She calls her social worker "V" when her real name is Vanity. Not canon or anything, but an interesting little theory... Only problem with that being... Giles or Rupert are perfectly normal names. So that theory works for Buffy, but not Giles. And also... not canon. And at that point of writing, all that theory had to account for was its application to only Buffy, meaning that it made sense then, but not necessarily here, in light of Faith's recent take to nicknaming Giles. |
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cheryl
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Post by cheryl on Apr 4, 2009 10:26:26 GMT -5
I really really enjoyed this issue a lot. Giles has just been gone too damn long and it was nice to see him finally return. I also thought the art was great and the cover was especially gorgeous.
Faith calling Giles "G" was a WTH moment for me as well. That is a Xander thing, not a Faith thing. It's kinda like when Xander used Faith's 5x5 line, that was a WTH moment for me as well. We seem to be getting quite a few of those moments.
Another example would be in the way Faith reacted more like what we know of Buffy in this isssue and Buffy reacted more like what we know of Faith in the Simone issue. Seems as if nobody is acting right or as themself. I hope this is intentional and not just a failure to notice the details, which does, imo, impact the consistency of the story. Things like that might seem silly to some fans but for others, it's pretty noticable when characters start using other characters catchy phrases.
Confusion over what's going on aside, this was my favorite issue since ATM and is in my top 5 of all the issues. More than anything, I can't wait to find out what's really going on.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Apr 4, 2009 10:41:35 GMT -5
In Go Ask Malice, it's said that Faith calls people by the first letter of their name if she thinks their real name is too ridiculous to use. She calls her social worker "V" when her real name is Vanity. Not canon or anything, but an interesting little theory... Only problem with that being... Giles or Rupert are perfectly normal names. So that theory works for Buffy, but not Giles. And also... not canon. And at that point of writing, all that theory had to account for was its application to only Buffy, meaning that it made sense then, but not necessarily here, in light of Faith's recent take to nicknaming Giles. Yeah, I know, I wasn't making an argument for or against the "G" thing, just throwing that info out there... I don't really have an opinion about her calling him "G". It wasn't very creative on Krueger's part, but it wasn't out of character or anything. |
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Apr 4, 2009 11:44:42 GMT -5
In Go Ask Malice, it's said that Faith calls people by the first letter of their name if she thinks their real name is too ridiculous to use. She calls her social worker "V" when her real name is Vanity. Not canon or anything, but an interesting little theory... Only problem with that being... Giles or Rupert are perfectly normal names. So that theory works for Buffy, but not Giles. And also... not canon. And at that point of writing, all that theory had to account for was its application to only Buffy, meaning that it made sense then, but not necessarily here, in light of Faith's recent take to nicknaming Giles. Well, that's your opinion. Maybe Faith think Giles or Rupert is an odd name to call someone. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 4, 2009 12:21:32 GMT -5
Well, that's your opinion. Maybe Faith think Giles or Rupert is an odd name to call someone. Maybe so, but then again, I have a "strange" name, and have known many people with even "stranger" names. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 4, 2009 12:55:06 GMT -5
Only problem with that being... Giles or Rupert are perfectly normal names. So that theory works for Buffy, but not Giles. And also... not canon. And at that point of writing, all that theory had to account for was its application to only Buffy, meaning that it made sense then, but not necessarily here, in light of Faith's recent take to nicknaming Giles. Well, that's your opinion. Maybe Faith think Giles or Rupert is an odd name to call someone. The problem with that theory is that Faith's been calling Giles "Giles" for nearly 5 years from Season 3 to Season 7. Be illogical for her to suddenly decide that his name was odd after all that time. |
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Apr 4, 2009 13:48:47 GMT -5
I wasn't bothered at all by the G thing. I mean Faith does call Buffy "B" right. It would be ridiculous for Faith to call Willow "W" if you know what I'm sayin but to say "G" is kind of fun and they've been hanging out together "off-screen" for a while know. They've developped a new bond. I don't really see where the problem is.
On the other hand, something that really annoyed me was when she said "You sound so much like I used to. i'm starting to feel at home... which I left the first chance I got".
I couldn't see the point of bringing this up. It felt like the writer only wanted to show us he did his homework and knew the character. It felt forced into the conversation, completely off-topic, kinda lame.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 4, 2009 22:16:43 GMT -5
"Man, they always gotta be so chatty." (I still like this line. No mockery as yet.)
"She's calling me names, G." (I'm just not gonna even go there. She says it once and I'm just gonna let it slide. It still sounds weird though.)
"We're checking up. You bailed on your squad." (Meh, okay.)
"Yay. Let's bond." (This is actually okay. Moving on.)
"That makes you guide dog." (Hmm now obviously we have the sarcasm above from the first comment, but here we go again. The Faith of NFFY wants to help misguided slayers. Yet the Faith of #24 wants to insult them and use them? No wait, Faith's still going to save the Slayers, she's just not going to be nice to them. Right. 'Cause Faith of the now doesn't know how to make friends...except she did in NFFY and she did that easily in Season 7 too. Faith is an awesome big sis who finally knows how to play nice. Shame this issue didn't realize this truth.)
"Yeah so tell me howcum the slayers have a sanctuary in the middle of a Dracula flick?" (Meh. Okay. Moving on.)
"We're not recruiting, Giles. I know things are worse out there, but if these girls want to sit it out, that's their call." (This line I think should stand. And not for the fact that Faith actually calls Giles by his real name, but because she's supporting the right of freedom, the right to choose one's own fate.)
"I've inspired you? That's a first." (Oh Faith, wait for the inspiring advice you're about to get from Giles. It's gonna be great.)
"Right. I'll tell the Baby Slayers about my first time, how I -" (Oh right, this is where the writer inserts the foreshadowing for the first time Faith slayed vamps and let one get away. And we now know how traumatic it was for her. Except it wasn't at the time. And she's done way worse things like oh I dunno, murder, betraying her friends and the side of good. But yeah, make it seem like a mature Faith actually cares about such an insignificant moment in history.)
"Where are the girls?" (I've got a better question - where are Faith and Giles? Can we get some updated characterization here please?)
"You know you sound so much like I used to. I'm starting to feel at home...which I left the first chance I got." (God, this reads as incredibly awkward. And a bit hilarious when you consider how Faith refused to bond with Court earlier and mocked her on it "Yay, let's bond". But here she's mockingly bonding with Fillworthe and it leaves me wondering - why is she even bothering 'cause the joke...it ain't funny.)
"You notice there aren't any kids anywhere." (And the non-sequitur award goes to....meh, don't worry about it though. Language flow's been all out of whack for the entire piece.)
"What is it with Watchers and keeping Slayers in libraries?" (Keeping Slayers in libraries? Ummm, did I miss the seasons when Giles had Buffy chained to the bookshelves as a 'kept Slayer'? Weird language choice.)
"This really obvious trap feels like a trap." (I'm sorry, this is just bad grammar. It's not clever Whedon-y language play. Lame.)
"I'm tired of beating around the bush." (I'm tired of you sounding OC. Sucks, don't it?)
"'Sides, these hokey old stiffs...they gonna come up with something I ain't seen?" (Hokey? Heh. Again, weird language choice.)
"The Third..." (Did you seriously just name a random vamp "The Third"? Seriously? Faith, I'm going to ask you a question and try not to be offended, but were you born this retarded?)
"Well hell, two out of three ain't bad." (Yeah, not horrible. But wait til the 'one that got away' is used to torment you in a vision by a demon 6 years from this flashback. It's going to be hilaaaaarious. 'Cause ya know, you didn't give a damn when it first happened. And you've done worse stuff since. Like apocalyptically worse. Anywaaaaays.)
"Shut up!" (Petulant Slayer's not a good look for you, Faith.)
"I'll answer your Slayer-in-training questions later! Got a vamp to snuff." (Lamest vision-tormenter ever, you mean. The fact that you're not even blase about this vamp speaks volumes about the writer's misunderstandings of the verse. Cocky Faith takes out vamps while she's dancing up a storm or having a conversation on the side. Conversation doesn't stop when you're fighting...Krueger, to better understand this please reference A Beautiful Sunset. Thanks.)
"That was your last meal, Octobitch." (Okay, on the surface this reads okay. But compare it to Rowena's "Fuck em up" or Dawn's "Fuckin' fum" and you see why this oneliner from Faith who is leagues edgier than Dawn and Rowena is just beyond lame. Sigh.)
"Choke on it." (I wish you'd choked on so many of these OC lines.)
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Apr 5, 2009 0:13:38 GMT -5
"Man, they always gotta be so chatty." (I still like this line. No mockery as yet.) "She's calling me names, G." (I'm just not gonna even go there. She says it once and I'm just gonna let it slide. It still sounds weird though.) "We're checking up. You bailed on your squad." (Meh, okay.) "Yay. Let's bond." (This is actually okay. Moving on.) "That makes you guide dog." (Hmm now obviously we have the sarcasm above from the first comment, but here we go again. The Faith of NFFY wants to help misguided slayers. Yet the Faith of #24 wants to insult them and use them? No wait, Faith's still going to save the Slayers, she's just not going to be nice to them. Right. 'Cause Faith of the now doesn't know how to make friends...except she did in NFFY and she did that easily in Season 7 too. Faith is an awesome big sis who finally knows how to play nice. Shame this issue didn't realize this truth.) "Yeah so tell me howcum the slayers have a sanctuary in the middle of a Dracula flick?" (Meh. Okay. Moving on.) "We're not recruiting, Giles. I know things are worse out there, but if these girls want to sit it out, that's their call." (This line I think should stand. And not for the fact that Faith actually calls Giles by his real name, but because she's supporting the right of freedom, the right to choose one's own fate.) "I've inspired you? That's a first." (Oh Faith, wait for the inspiring advice you're about to get from Giles. It's gonna be great.) "Right. I'll tell the Baby Slayers about my first time, how I -" (Oh right, this is where the writer inserts the foreshadowing for the first time Faith slayed vamps and let one get away. And we now know how traumatic it was for her. Except it wasn't at the time. And she's done way worse things like oh I dunno, murder, betraying her friends and the side of good. But yeah, make it seem like a mature Faith actually cares about such an insignificant moment in history.) "Where are the girls?" (I've got a better question - where are Faith and Giles? Can we get some updated characterization here please?) "You know you sound so much like I used to. I'm starting to feel at home...which I left the first chance I got." (God, this reads as incredibly awkward. And a bit hilarious when you consider how Faith refused to bond with Court earlier and mocked her on it "Yay, let's bond". But here she's mockingly bonding with Fillworthe and it leaves me wondering - why is she even bothering 'cause the joke...it ain't funny.) "You notice there aren't any kids anywhere." (And the non-sequitur award goes to....meh, don't worry about it though. Language flow's been all out of whack for the entire piece.) "What is it with Watchers and keeping Slayers in libraries?" (Keeping Slayers in libraries? Ummm, did I miss the seasons when Giles had Buffy chained to the bookshelves as a 'kept Slayer'? Weird language choice.) "This really obvious trap feels like a trap." (I'm sorry, this is just bad grammar. It's not clever Whedon-y language play. Lame.) "I'm tired of beating around the bush." (I'm tired of you sounding OC. Sucks, don't it?) "'Sides, these hokey old stiffs...they gonna come up with something I ain't seen?" (Hokey? Heh. Again, weird language choice.) "The Third..." (Did you seriously just name a random vamp "The Third"? Seriously? Faith, I'm going to ask you a question and try not to be offended, but were you born this retarded?) "Well hell, two out of three ain't bad." (Yeah, not horrible. But wait til the 'one that got away' is used to torment you in a vision by a demon 6 years from this flashback. It's going to be hilaaaaarious. 'Cause ya know, you didn't give a damn when it first happened. And you've done worse stuff since. Like apocalyptically worse. Anywaaaaays.) "Shut up!" (Petulant Slayer's not a good look for you, Faith.) "I'll answer your Slayer-in-training questions later! Got a vamp to snuff." (Lamest vision-tormenter ever, you mean. The fact that you're not even blase about this vamp speaks volumes about the writer's misunderstandings of the verse. Cocky Faith takes out vamps while she's dancing up a storm or having a conversation on the side. Conversation doesn't stop when you're fighting...Krueger, to better understand this please reference A Beautiful Sunset. Thanks.) "That was your last meal, Octobitch." (Okay, on the surface this reads okay. But compare it to Rowena's "Fuck em up" or Dawn's "Fuckin' fum" and you see why this oneliner from Faith who is leagues edgier than Dawn and Rowena is just beyond lame. Sigh.) "Choke on it." (I wish you'd choked on so many of these OC lines.) I cracked up about the "The Third" line. I completely agree! Why did she randomly name a vampire whom she barely cared about to begin with? It should have been Kakistos. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 5, 2009 9:08:37 GMT -5
No offense, Em, but I think I liked the Giles' one better. I guess Giles just got some real duds in this time around, and it's just a lot more fun to read your mockery. Faith, as I said before, didn't really say/do much, and I think the number of times you said "meh" just shows how meh her lines were. Faith's not known for really good quotes, at least not to me, but there's usually wordplay involved, usually at the expense of her less-than-educated vocabulary. You know... the whole Achilles' heel thing, and confusing "cunning" for Giles asking her to go "down town" on some chick.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 5, 2009 10:25:48 GMT -5
No offense, Em, but I think I liked the Giles' one better. I guess Giles just got some real duds in this time around, and it's just a lot more fun to read your mockery. None taken. I like the Giles one too. There was less to mock with Faith here. It was just meh. Witness why I had more trouble with her.  |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 5, 2009 10:27:00 GMT -5
Hahaha, the last one made me lose it.
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Post by monkeypie on Apr 6, 2009 0:31:18 GMT -5
"She's calling me names, G." - See, this is one of the ones i hear Faith clearest. It reminds me of when she'd go out with Buffy. I like the fact she now calles Giles G, it suggests a change in their relationship, that shes not using the same name she used all throughout the show. Theres a lot of tension between Faith and the scoobies, and a lot of the time it seems she calls Buffy B just because of the rivalry between them. Giles is still the "grown up" in that situation, and as silly as it sounds i think that still affects the way they interact throughout the televised series until season 7. I dunno, i'm tired and ranting but for me it just felt like a progression in their relationship. besides, B and G are letters with similar sounds. W or X is a bit more of a mouthful but B or G (or even C or D or E... ) kinda roll of the tongue a bit more. But hey, i think this is a definite agree or disagree issue. |
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vampmogs
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Post by vampmogs on Apr 6, 2009 4:45:53 GMT -5
Yeah I completely agree.
She didn't call Giles "G" in the past because she had a different relationship with him in the past. It'd an odd complaint for people to say "but she never called him that!" when she's never been close to him before. They've spent months together, bonding with only each other. The fact Faith has given Giles a nickname she usually only reserved to Buffy, is a pretty simplistic yet effective way to show they've grown closer.
I smiled when she first called him G.
Meh, each to their own an' all that.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 6, 2009 14:46:42 GMT -5
LOL, I actually thought this issue was okay--not great, but passingly-decent--until reading Emmie's posts on Faith's and Giles' dialogue (especially Giles!)  Besides the characterization problems that have already been mentioned, my main gripe with this was that it just didn't tie in very strongly with the rest of S8. It came across more as issue #10 of the NFFY-inspired Faith/Giles spinoff series. And despite the demon being very reminiscent of the Thesulac from "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been", it still offered an interesting chance to do some exploration and further development of Giles' and Faith's characters... but there just wasn't room for that in only a single issue. This didn't even need to be a full 4-issue arc to be really good--it probably could've made for a very good story as just a two-parter. Well, that is, if they'd tabbed Doug Petrie to write it instead of Krueger. Finally, the art... Well, I just really hope the schedule works out and allows Jeanty to pencil the final 16 issues... |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 6, 2009 15:25:41 GMT -5
LOL, I actually thought this issue was okay--not great, but passingly-decent--until reading Emmie's posts on Faith's and Giles' dialogue (especially Giles!) Mine is a vicious wit. Besides the characterization problems that have already been mentioned, my main gripe with this was that it just didn't tie in very strongly with the rest of S8. It came across more as issue #10 of the NFFY-inspired Faith/Giles spinoff series. Yeah, it didn't tie in very well. Obviously it applies to the Predator/Prey dynamic with the Slayers becoming the prey of the town. But it was a poorly executed concept. And despite the demon being very reminiscent of the Thesulac from "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been", it still offered an interesting chance to do some exploration and further development of Giles' and Faith's characters... but there just wasn't room for that in only a single issue. This didn't even need to be a full 4-issue arc to be really good--it probably could've made for a very good story as just a two-parter. Well, that is, if they'd tabbed Doug Petrie to write it instead of Krueger. I think it really required a writer who knows the characters/'verse inside and out and could parse down the story so that it hit all the necessary points. Krueger wasted a lot of energy in setting up the story and needlessly wasted dialogue space too. Finally, the art... Well, I just really hope the schedule works out and allows Jeanty to pencil the final 16 issues... I second that. Jeanty is doing the entire run for Espenson's Retreat arc, but no news on after that point yet. Here's hoping. *fingers crossed* Re: The "G" nickname. It's not a horrible divergence. It just shows a minor misconception about Faith and it's close enough that it slides by for most people. The fact that it's only said once helps too. I find the bigger problem being that Giles doesn't react to being called that. Krueger does a slightly better job with depicting Faith, where as Giles feels like a trainwreck to me. |
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