Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2009 16:51:47 GMT -5
I like "Antique" too. It's a comedy... and unusually broad comedy, in fact... but I find it funny. The scene where Dracula is trying to scare the Slayers by turning into various things is hilarious, as is Slayer Kira when she's stoned on Drac's charm spell. (The art there is particularly funny). I like what Goddard did to expand the Dracula character in this and WatG. And they shouldn't be... they have some great stories. "Righteous"... "The Trouble With Vampires"... "Sonnenblume"... "Presumption"... "Stacy"... "Taking Care of Business"... all great stuff. Karma for the much-needed Tales love. Another thing that bugged me was when people complained about "WatG" making "Antique" canon when it was already canon to begin with. The Tales books are so shunned. Didn't say that "WatG" made it canon. I know that the Tales anthology was already canon. I lamented that fact (that "Antique" was canon in the first place). And that "WatG" even went so far as to reference it. It's not the buttmonkey thing that bugs me... it's just... the writing just stank for me. It was cheesy, and kinda mediocre. I get that it was supposed to be about Dracula's degradation... but I don't care. I never really gave a crap about Dracula... he made for a rather poor entry into S5, other than echoing dream-Tara's message from "Restless". And the art... yech. That wasn't directed at you so much as the letter guy; he specifically refers to it "being made canon" as though it wasn't before. Plus there were some people complaining about it at the time "WatG" came out. I thought "Antique" was really well-written. Goddard did a great job of actually giving Dracula depth and making him a relatable character who feels at home in the Buffyverse (which he wasn't in "BvD"). As for the art... I liked it. I've heard it get criticised for making Xander "ugly" but that doesn't bother me. I don't want Xander "beside and behind his friends," I want him "beside" them, period. Xander being ignored is part of what makes his character so tragic and relatable. Haven't you seen "The Zeppo" and "Potential"? And yeah, it seems to be your letter, his name was Rob Horne.
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Post by loveisabird on May 8, 2009 16:55:54 GMT -5
I loved this issue, definately the best or 2nd best of the arc (I mighta preferred Predators and Prey more). I adored the Veronica Mars reference like many on here I love Willow's short but great appearance. The artwork for her appearance was better than a lot of what Ive seen so far. I think the issue was pretty rushed. I didnt like that Dawn noticed Buffy and then from there it was her instant rescue grrr. Loved the Buffy/Dawn interaction at the end. It was short and sweet which I think wasn't enough, but Im finding thats the way many of the issues are.
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parabola
Potential Slayer
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Post by parabola on May 8, 2009 17:48:19 GMT -5
Overall, I enjoyed this issue much more than the rest of arc ... but I'm really not feeling much of a payoff on the Dawn storyline. Maybe on a whole Season 8 re-read it won't feel so drawn out, or that for what's to come for her character (as alluded to by Scott Allie), this whole experience will fit in somehow.
Also, the Dawn/Kenny and Dawn/Buffy reconciliations seem to have gotten short shrift. I get the sentiments, but by cramming it into about 2.5 pages it goes by too suddenly.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2009 21:02:18 GMT -5
So... I've been holding off posting about #27 because I read the issue yesterday and absolutely hated it. Didn't want to mindlessly bash it because I hate when people do that. Anyway, I re-read the issue today and am still not a fan, but it's not as bad as I initally thought. One of my biggest problems with the issue is the weird doll storyline with the paedo guy. Now, I've been really tolerant of the weird stuff in S8, I've defended Mecha Dawn and the tree people... but this was really pushing it. Why the hell is there some creepy guy living in the woods making living dolls? There's no set-up or explanation for this. None of the characters seem to think of it as strange. Maybe this is just a matter of personal taste, since nobody here has really mentioned it, but the Gepetto guy just sticks out like a sore thumb for me. I don't get him at all. That coupled with the return of the tree people made this issue feel like it was set in Narnia or somewhere other than the Buffyverse. It wasn't even funny, which usually makes the weird stuff much easier to swallow. The worst thing though is the bad plotting/pacing. There's a lot of great ideas in the issue, but they're completely rushed and confusing. The Gepetto story might have been salvagable if there'd been more explanation, but there isn't any. Dawn's disappearance is handled terribly, I think it's meant to be a mystery but just comes off as confusing. The B-story with Judas Cradle's "army" of vampires, while funny, seems pointless and just eats up pages. The Dawn/Kenny story is badly resolved; after two years of build-up, a couple of routine apologies is really anti-climactic. Also, does Dawn see Kenny as a demon and love him anyway, or does she only see him in his human form? That's not explained. Finally, the make up scene with Buffy and Dawn feels forced. More a case of "oh, the story is finished so we'd better have a touching reunion" than anything that transpired naturally from the prior events. This rushed feeling is something that's been prevalant across this arc (see "Harmonic Divergence" and "Swell"), I think the writers are struggling to fit ambitious stories into single issues. There was some stuff I liked. Buffy and Xander's rapport was consistantly funny. I'm especially intriqued by Xander talking about dressing up as Wolverine, I wonder if that was for cosplay or sexual reasons. Andrew was hilarious as always. Kenny's character design was brilliant. The art in general was excellent, I like how it's never just talking heads, the characters are always doing something as they talk, like Xander helping Slayers get ready for battle. Unfortunately I think the story should either have been simpler or a couple of issues longer.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 8, 2009 21:11:35 GMT -5
While I liked this issue a lot more than you, I agree about the "rushed" feel of these standalone issues. I think the purpose of this arc was to try to recapture the feel of the TV series' standalones, but unfortunately it's not a 1:1 equation. You can't fit nearly as much story into 22 comics pages as you can into 43 minutes of screen time.
Ultimately they might have been better off just doing what they were doing before, and just sticking a standalone episode in between each of the arcs, and having it feed off the main storyline rather than trying to cram a full episode into one comic... and doing it every month for seven consecutive months.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 9, 2009 16:04:09 GMT -5
I liked #22 a lot, and ToYL had some decent moments, but this was def. my favorite issue since WatG ended. The stuff with Andrew was brief, but still left me wishing Petrie or Goddard could've written #23, since they've done (by far) the best job of translating his voice onto the page. And yeah, as has already been said, Kenny was pretty cool... but he's still a ****** for putting Dawn thru that. Geez, it's not like she killed his family or something. Get some perspective, dude. :broody: Maybe Thricewises are easily enraged, or just fond of vengeance. My only complaint wasn't really with this issue so much as just with the Dawn storyline overall. To quote Xander: "Big overture... little show." I never thought it was written all that well to begin with (for example, why is Dawn so anxious for Willow to return in #1, then when she does show up, Dawn won't talk to her about it?), and the payoff turned out to not be all that great. On the plus side, I agree with whoever made the point about the mature way that Dawn handled the entire thing, and that thankfully the writers didn't make the mistake of regressing her back to her S5-ness. If you go back thru all the eps/issues, it's actually been a pretty steady progression each season for her into a mature, capable young woman (which is why I get annoyed when people still call her "whiny", because they've never paid enough attention, S6-8, to see that they need to revise their original opinion). It's nice to see that Buffy's finally noticing that now, too. Two more agreements: Yeah, the art in this one was outstanding (especially coming off last month, which was a big ). And yeah, this is definitely the naked-est "Buffy" season ever. And off the subject of this issue: Xander. I'm not sure I'd say that he's been "neglected" since S4. In S7 and 8, maybe, but he certainly had a couple of arcs of the personal variety in S4 and 6 that were well done and that a lot of people could relate to. But I just haven't had any interest in him since S5. He grew up after "The Replacement", but he also lost most of his sense of humor , which is why Andrew became such a great addition to the gang in S7: he supplied a lot of the laughs we hadn't gotten from Xander in 2 years...
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on May 10, 2009 1:14:45 GMT -5
Paul730, I actually found your review pretty interesting. Whereas I do like the issue, I agree with some of your points, such as the Gepetto guy living in the woods. There was no explanation given to who the hell he was at all and now that I am thinking about it, it does kind of aggravate me and get under my skin. Even if they had to make the story into two issues, I wouldnt have cared because maybe the story could have been more fleshed out. If the whole Predators and Prey arc was set up to be individual stories, literally driven by the story and not the characters, then Living Doll just feels misplaced as it was supposed to have Dawn actually get some charachter progression.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 10, 2009 2:32:26 GMT -5
I really don't get all this hair-pulling and complaining about the Gepetto dude. He's a plot-device. He's not interesting in and of himself, only in the way that he helps drive the rest of the story forward, which in this case was the various Dawn/Buffy/Kenny stuff. Is it uber-convenient that he just happened to be living nearby at the time Dawn turned into a doll? Of course. But that type of convenience happens all the time in fiction. It was damn convenient that ("Dollhouse" spoilers) Alpha killed and took the place of that Kepler/Kapler guy last week, on the very day that Ballard was able to tail Mellie back to the Dollhouse and thereby get a new lead but if the rest of the story is good (as this issue and last week's "Dollhouse" both were), that's the kind of small detail that you should just roll with. And if the rest of the story sucks, then it falls into the category of 'one more thing to complain about'... ;D
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 10, 2009 7:42:50 GMT -5
What if "Geppetto" was actually Twilight in disguise (or working for him)? What if during his "surgery" on Dolly Dawn, he was actually implanting something into her brain that will cause her to betray Buffy against her will in the future? Is Dawn now a sleeper agent for Twilight?
Probably not, but just the possibility makes Geppetto seem less lame, doesn't it?
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
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Post by BlueJay on May 10, 2009 13:55:59 GMT -5
I never thought too much about Geppetto. I was too mentally occupied thinking about what Geppetto might to do Dawn instead of thinking of his origins. It reminded me of the Halloween episode of Season Six when Dawn's vamp friends killed the old man (who hummed Popped Goes the Weasel), while the audience was suppose to assume that the old man was the villain of the day.
But now that I am thinking about it now, I'm assuming that he's just part of this absurd "treefolk/faerie tale" community that just poofed its way into the Buffyverse since Issue #5.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on May 10, 2009 15:01:57 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure why Geppetto didn't work for me when I've defended other ludicrous concepts like Mecha Dawn and the tree people. I think it's because, whereas those other things were there purely for comedic value, Geppetto was the main "villain of the week" and required more explanation for the story to work. For example, the weirdness in "Smile Time" works because we understand how and why Angel was turned into a puppet, and the demons' motivations. If he was just randomly turned into a puppet by some random demons, it wouldn't work.
I don't understand why or how Geppetto was doing what he was doing. It's similar to the Vampy Cats - I felt they required more explanation as well, and I put it down to a lack of space in these one-shots.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by BlueJay on May 10, 2009 15:20:27 GMT -5
Well, fortunately for us, there will be no more one shots for the remainder of the series.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on May 10, 2009 16:36:02 GMT -5
Well, fortunately for us, there will be no more one shots for the remainder of the series. I actually like one-shots, but they need to be focused and simple.
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Post by wenxina on May 12, 2009 9:19:31 GMT -5
Well, fortunately for us, there will be no more one shots for the remainder of the series. Not entirely true... or at least not really confirmed to be so yet. If I'm not mistaken, the format of the last few issues hasn't been finalized yet. Or at least not as of the Q&A with Scott Allie for issue #24. So there's a possibility of another one-shot (or two).
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 12, 2009 10:02:41 GMT -5
It would be fine to have one or two more one-shots along the lines of "Anywhere But Here" or "A Beautiful Sunset"... ones that are directly tied in to the main story arc. I think the main story is now going to start moving too quickly and intensely to be taking any more tangential side trips.
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Post by wenxina on May 12, 2009 11:14:26 GMT -5
I agree, and I think the final pit-stop (in terms of storytelling) should be this TotV one-shot in June. After that... I'm hoping to be gripping my seat with every issue.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on May 12, 2009 13:05:56 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure why Geppetto didn't work for me when I've defended other ludicrous concepts like Mecha Dawn and the tree people. I think it's because, whereas those other things were there purely for comedic value, Geppetto was the main "villain of the week" and required more explanation for the story to work. For example, the weirdness in "Smile Time" works because we understand how and why Angel was turned into a puppet, and the demons' motivations. If he was just randomly turned into a puppet by some random demons, it wouldn't work. I don't understand why or how Geppetto was doing what he was doing. It's similar to the Vampy Cats - I felt they required more explanation as well, and I put it down to a lack of space in these one-shots. Exactly! Karma to you for wording that so nicely!
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on May 12, 2009 18:45:32 GMT -5
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on May 13, 2009 12:12:34 GMT -5
I I am not going to get all worked up about it simply because I am hoping that they will hopefully go back and touch on it within later comics. But we canreally trust that they will because we still have yet to see anything done with Marcie Ross.
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sire
Potential Slayer
Glad to see you've found the softer side of Sears[Mo0:0]
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Post by sire on May 16, 2009 5:52:21 GMT -5
... So dawns jealous of Buffys 'other' little sister slayers... Didnt we already establish all this in season 7 ep 'Potential?'... Im getting tired of these comics retreading on stuff we already know. Im really craving/missing the character development that MADE btvs
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