patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 7, 2009 22:04:43 GMT -5
Hm, yeah, I'm fuzzy about the Gunn thing now. Could be an entire issue, though I really didn't think it was.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 8, 2009 2:40:50 GMT -5
If the Gunn and Drusilla stories are going to be folded into the "Angel" and "Spike" titles, and be a part of that numbering system, then okay, I withdraw my criticism on that point. We'll see how they plan to handle it. But my main concern still stands with regards to Joss's questionable level of involvement in everything post-AtF. And if Joss has had no input on the story, then sorry, but I don't consider it canon, and have no real interest in reading it. Brian's a great writer, and has a really good handle on the characters, but that alone isn't enough to canonize a story--there are some really well-written novels, too, but their quality doesn't make them canon, either. The events pick up from the end of a canon series (AtF), but that also doesn't make them canon, in the same way that a novel isn't canon just because it tucks neatly into a certain point of one of the seasons with no glaring contradictions.
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 8, 2009 3:08:42 GMT -5
Folks, Brian Lynch is the new David Greenwalt. He's more or less the new executive producer. Joss wasn't terribly focused on AtS when it was a show either. In fact, it was Greenwalt, not Joss, who formed the character of Angel starting in season 1 BtVS. Darla was also more Greenwalt's baby than Joss'. Greenwalt basically made huge characters out of what would have been brief throwaways without any backstory. That's why he was made executive producer of the spin-off out of all the other writers that did work on BtVS; it was even more of his character than Joss', but set in Joss' universe.
Brian Lynch seems to be very aware of Kelley Armstrong's arc and seems to be working much like how Joss is working with assigning different writers for different arcs and filling them in on what direction to go in or what to build off of. And now we know that Brian's work with the title is far from over (not only writing the Spike continuation, but returning to co-write with Juliet Landau on the main Angel title) and he's still pretty much spearheading the whole storyline after a basic mapping out by Joss for where he wanted things to start and what direction to go in.
I would say Brian Lynch is our new Joss-sanctioned David Greenwalt/Tim Minear-like executive producer and the series will occasionally be bringing in folks like Kelley Armstrong and Juliet Landau to write for it. Their arcs aren't separate from the 3 arcs we have already had (First Night, Spike: After the Fall and Angel: After the Fall) because they are continuing with the same storyline and the consequences of it. It's still all basically the same "season" and will be until a new storyline starts. This one isn't over no matter who is writing.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 8, 2009 3:42:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I think (for me) if it's not Joss then Brian Lynch is the next best thing... (well next to David Greenwalt lol)
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 8, 2009 4:26:39 GMT -5
Folks, Brian Lynch is the new David Greenwalt. He's more or less the new executive producer. Joss wasn't terribly focused on AtS when it was a show either. In fact, it was Greenwalt, not Joss, who formed the character of Angel starting in season 1 BtVS. Darla was also more Greenwalt's baby than Joss'. Greenwalt basically made huge characters out of what would have been brief throwaways without any backstory. That's why he was made executive producer of the spin-off out of all the other writers that did work on BtVS; it was even more of his character than Joss', but set in Joss' universe. The key difference there being that when you watch an episode of the series, and the opening credits roll and Angel walks down that alley, the text says "Created by Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt". Not "Joss Whedon, David Greenwalt, and Brian Lynch". As good a writer as I think Lynch is, he doesn't bring the same cache to the "Angel" title that Greenwalt does. To be brutally honest, it's not even close. Now if Greenwalt were serving as executive producer of these comics, in much the same role as Joss is filling with S8, plotting the stories with Brian and bouncing script revisions back and forth with him, then I think the results would be something truly special. But without the Whedon, Greenwalt, or even Minear name attached, I can't consider any of the upcoming series canon. Sorry.
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 8, 2009 5:08:11 GMT -5
Joss personally picked Brian Lynch for the continuation and has let Brian pretty much take over the franchise. That makes him the new executive producer on board.
It's the same as choosing David Greenwalt to spin-off Angel from BtVS. Brian Lynch is the new head honcho for AtS and Joss' choice should be respected.
And if you really want to get picky, maybe we should try tracking down David Greenwalt or Tim Minear if you have to have a former executive producer decide what is a canon continuation to their work along with the rest of the AtS staff. Angel, the character, was more Greenwalt's work in the first place. A lot of the early Spike and Drusilla relationship is attributed to Marti Noxon coming on board, so maybe we should ask her. The point is that those shows we all love dearly were the work of many people other than just Joss.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 8, 2009 6:59:19 GMT -5
Atermath isn't canon. Spike ".." won't be canon. ATF was barely canon, don't think Spike ATF was canon. Who cares? Joss doesn't care about the Angel series anymore, not enough to want to be involved in its future. He passed that torch onto Lynch, who has more than proved himself.
In a world where canon means forest creatures and centaurs, canon means sod all.
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 8, 2009 7:34:13 GMT -5
For all the people who think that "season 6" has no meta value... think of this:
1 - Angel learns he must get in touch and personal with humanity. 2 - Angel chooses the big picture over humanity, goes dark and has an epiphany about helping humanity. 3 - Angel's past crimes against humanity come to bite him in the ass just as he is given the impossible gift of a mortal offspring--his connection to the human coil at last. 4 - Angel fights for humanity's free will and power to choose its own murky path over Utopian world peace. 5 - Angel fights the corporate beast from within--a beast that uses the guise of humanity and plans to let humanity destroy itself with a few nudges. 6 - Angel becomes human, but can't help those he needs to protect as easily. Angel loses his one connection the mortal coil with the death of Connor. Angel saves humanity and his true human self (Connor) by sacrificing himself just as he's gotten his own humanity. Angel goes from urban legend to legend among the city-wide populace and his stranger in the shadows act will likely be further compromised as it was in season 5 (see Conviction). Humanity now knows that Angel is there. Angel has become a "somebody".
What is the common meta through every season? Humanity. This is what I was saying about how AtS isn't like BtVS. BtVS has seasonal meta themes. AtS has one big series-wide meta theme to go along with its series-wide villains and series-wide dangling carrots (the Shanshu). It's all about Angel becoming closer to humanity. BtVS is slightly more episodic and seasonal than AtS is. The same goes for the comics.
Or, if you want to look at it this way: Angel, the non-human who used to have no faith in humanity, is championing it and becoming more connected to humanity while Buffy, who once represented humanity and not wanting to give up humanity, is becoming less human, is disconnected from it and is even now accused of being against it with her own superior race to which human rules and laws do not apply.
Angel, as a vampire, has always felt inferior to humanity while Buffy is now feeling superior to it (much like season 3 Faith did). We also must remember that every time reformed Faith speaks, she is the work of Angel's philosophy on humanity. The fact that Faith is on the opposite side of Buffy shows very much Angel's would-be position on what Buffy is doing right now. Their philosophies right now couldn't be more against each other.
Both of the current comic series are bringing this theme to a head. Angel is closer to humanity than ever before while Buffy is the furthest from it that she's ever been.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Feb 8, 2009 10:37:23 GMT -5
damn strait
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Post by wenxina on Feb 8, 2009 10:51:31 GMT -5
Brian Lynch seems to be very aware of Kelley Armstrong's arc and seems to be working much like how Joss is working with assigning different writers for different arcs and filling them in on what direction to go in or what to build off of. And now we know that Brian's work with the title is far from over (not only writing the Spike continuation, but returning to co-write with Juliet Landau on the main Angel title) and he's still pretty much spearheading the whole storyline after a basic mapping out by Joss for where he wanted things to start and what direction to go in. Please find me a quote somewhere that says that Lynch is breaking down the plots for every arc that's coming up. I've not read this anywhere, and would like to be enlightened, and accurately informed. Lynch was sanctioned to write AtF. The rest of it is quite questionable. And as far as I know, Joss has said that the "Angel thing is not a Season 6", not in quite so many words, but there's the gist of it. Not that it really matters that much to the argument, except for the bit that states that the Angel series is not sanctioned to be a canon continuation of the Angel story, and therefore the Buffyverse. AtF was your summer blockbuster that tied up some loose ends at the end of "NFA", but IMO, was written to bridge the point between "NFA" and the stories that IDW wants to tell. In other words, it's a relaunch of IDW's Angel comics, but using the previous 5 seasons of Angel, and the big movie bridge as a launching point. That doesn't make it (Aftermath, etc) canon... a nod from the big head with the kinda receding hairline does. Given Joss' current commitments, it's not surprising that he can't work on Angel right now. Should he decide to give a retroactive canon nod later on, sure, then it's canon. Again, I'm not drawing the distinction between canon and quality. There are episodes of questionable quality in both BtVS and AtS, and even some shoddy bits in the official continuations. And for those who argue that books can still be enjoyed by fans, even if they're not canon, I agree there. All I'm saying is that if the 'verse truly is fractured, I'm sticking to the canon bits only. As I said in my first post on this thread, canon is necessary for constructive dialogue; the non-canon bits should be excluded because in the arena of discussion of the shows proper, it holds as much water as fanfiction. In other words, it's very leaky. EDIT: I just skipped over to Buffyfest (the blog), and they have a video interview with Lynch up where he says that he's e-mailed Joss about the stories he wants to tell regarding the Spike series, but he admits that Joss is really busy. Meaning that Joss "knows of it... but specifics not yet". EDIT2: I realized that I wasn't clear on one thing; I don't dispute that AtF is canonical. Just the rest of the work following it.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Feb 8, 2009 11:20:20 GMT -5
Well, ATF is canon because Joss said "let's do a canon series called ANGEL:AFTER THE FALL" and I said "okay". I have no idea if SPIKE is gonna be canon. But, gotta be honest, don't really mind either way.
Canon means more people would read it which is wonderful, but at the end of the day, I'm just looking to make the best comic book I can.
I'd rather have the readers (and Joss) say "that was awesome" over "that was canon". If they can sing "that was awesome", even better, because singing is pretty.
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Post by wenxina on Feb 8, 2009 11:29:37 GMT -5
[sings]After the Fall was pretty awesome[/sings]
How's my pitch? EDIT: Still watching your interview with the Buffyfest crew... did you trim your sideburns?
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 8, 2009 11:41:34 GMT -5
21 issues fits a helluva lot more than a "movie". That's half a season's worth right there. The "movie" quote came back when it was a 12-issue limited maxi series. It sort of blossomed since that outdated quote. It's probably back from when BtVS season 8 was expected to be 22 issues long. We've had three arcs of a continuing story, not a limited "movie" with no continuation expected.
Aftermath isn't some new separate storyline. It's dealing with the consequences of After the Fall. The Gunn and Drusilla arcs after that (in the main title, by the way) also deal with consequences of After the Fall. These are all linked serial stories surrounding one plotline.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 8, 2009 11:46:07 GMT -5
Aftermath isn't just about the consequences of After the Fall, seeing as the majority of players other than Angel, Connor, and Gwen have small if any roles. Aftermath is very very much its own story. It has warrior angels and cat changers, man!
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Feb 8, 2009 12:00:14 GMT -5
Yeah, and? Last I checked, Non and Jeremy are on the cover of Angel: After the Fall #17 and they haven't been in the main "A:AtF" title--the title that some purists here say is the only one they accept. They're just blocking out parts of the continuing story that deals with and uses or is helped by information from the different arcs.
Aftermath is allowed to bring in new characters the same way BtVS season 8 isn't even having a main cast list in every issue. It's going all over the place. In some issues of BtVS, Buffy doesn't even appear (or has like one panel)! Is it any less a season because it breaks the rule of the main cast having to be in every issue or it brings in completely new characters for some arcs? Is a problem that we've had The Chain, Faith becoming the star for an arc, Harmony and Kennedy/Satsu getting starring roles, etc...? BtVS has even been worse on that front with the comics than the AtS comics. The AtS comics are far more likely not to have many issues without Angel (only 3 thus far) the way BtVS is allowed to not have Buffy at the center of every arc. AtS is allowed to keep Gunn hospital-bound for a few issues or have Nina pop in at will.
AtS is allowed to introduce new characters that are around for several episodes/issues, but continuing the same story from before. AtS is the show that boasted Pylea out of the clear blue. I doubt the presence of a cat-changer or a warrior angel is going to radically change the fact that AtF has consequences--like those demon paparazzi guys. You can't just pick up Aftermath without having read After the Fall and you probably won't be able to skip Aftermath and not lose something. Similarly, it was Spike: After the Fall where we had revealed to us the nature of Gunn's magic room with the Slayers. The stories all fit into a cohesive whole.
I hate the double standards.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 8, 2009 22:35:23 GMT -5
Yeah, and? Last I checked, Non and Jeremy are on the cover of Angel: After the Fall #17 and they haven't been in the main "A:AtF" title--the title that some purists here say is the only one they accept. The cover is very relevant to #17 in ways that no one will expect. You'll see.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 9, 2009 3:23:42 GMT -5
When will we see again ? the week it comes out right we will know the date, yes?
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Feb 9, 2009 8:31:19 GMT -5
It's coming out Wednesday.
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Feb 10, 2009 22:10:47 GMT -5
My 2 Cents:
Joss Whedon is the only person that can decide canon. During many canon arguments I have heard people say "I don't consider this canon or I consider that canon". Its not up to us what canon is, canon is something that is officially decided by the creator of whatever property,in this case Angel.
That being said, there's so much to enjoy regardless of its "canonicity". Angel is becoming more of a comic than a TV show, and in comics there are all sorts of great stories that do not fit in to continuity. I say, lets see how good they are, and if they are good, then awesome. If not, we have the choice to forget them, especially if they are not canon.
I don't know Kelly Armstrong's work, so I am a not sure what to expect from Aftermath. What I do expect is that Lynch's stories will be awesome.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Feb 10, 2009 23:19:36 GMT -5
if the majority of fans consider it canon and joss doesn't do anything more with the series then it would be safe to believe that this is cannon and even if joss does decide to do something more with it, he will probably continue one with the story if the writers dont do some thing he sees as ir-redeemable
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