Canon Novels?

[SlayerLV]

Does anyone know which of the Buffy and Angel novels are supposed to be canon?

[Emmie]

I believe none of the novels are canon. Joss has never read or approved a Buffy/Angel novel.

[Skytteflickan88]

I think none are canon, but i think i read somewhere that they have to run the plot by Joss.

[leah]

There's actually quite a few of the novels that are considered cannonical, I'm not sure if it's approved by Whedon or not.... I'll have to check the books again...


edited:

Alright, here's the approved buffyverse novel list. Some are actually graphic novels (like the comics)

Tales of the Slayer (4 different books)
Spike and Dru: Pretty maids all in a row
Blackout

During Season 1 of Btvs these books were published.
(from spring 1996 up until spring 1997).

Halloween Rain
Night of the Living Rerun
Coyote Moon
How I Survived My Summer Vacation

During Season 2 of Btvs these books took place
(from autumn 1997 up until spring 1998)

Keep me in mind
The Suicide King
Colony
Night Terrors
Bad Bargain
After Image
Carnival of Souls
Portal Through Time
Go Ask Malice: A Slayer's Diary
Blooded

These tales take place during Buffy Season 3 (from autumn 1998 up until spring 1999).

Sins of the Father
Child of the Hunt
Ghoul Trouble
Paleo
The Evil That Men Do
The Deathless
Doomsday Deck
Immortal
Prime Evil
Revenant
Power of Persuasion
Resurrecting Ravana
The Gatekeeper [Trilogy]
Return to Chaos
Visitors
Unnatural Selection
Obsidian Fate
Deep Water
Here Be Monsters
The Book of Fours
Sunnydale High Yearbook

These Buffyverse tales take place during Buffy Season 4, and Angel Season 1 (from autumn 1999 up until spring 2000).

Angel book: Not Forgotten
Buffy books: Lost Slayer [series]
Buffy book: Oz: Into the Wild
Angel book: Close to the Ground
Angel book: Soul Trade
Angel book: Redemption
Angel book: Shakedown
Angel book: Hollywood Noir
Angel book: Avatar
Angel book: Bruja
Angel book: The Summoned
Buffy book: These Our Actors
Buffy/Angel books: Unseen [Trilogy]

These Buffyverse tales take place during Buffy Season 5, and Angel Season 2 (from autumn 2000 up until spring 2001).

Angel book: Image
Angel book: Stranger to the Sun
Buffy book: Wisdom of War
Angel book: Vengeance
Angel book: Haunted
Buffy book: Tempted Champions
Buffy book: Little Things
Buffy book: Crossings
Buffy book: Sweet Sixteen

These Buffyverse tales take place around Buffy Season 6, and Angel Season 3 (from autumn 2001 up until spring 2002).

Buffy/Angel novel: Cursed
Angel book: Sanctuary
Angel anthology book:The Longest Night
Buffy/Angel novel: Monster Island
Angel book: Endangered Species
Angel book: Impressions
Buffy books: Wicked Willow

These Buffyverse tales take place around Buffy Season 7, and Angel Season 4 (from autumn 2002 up until spring 2003).

Buffy/Angel book: Seven Crows
Buffy book: Apocalypse Memories
Angel book: Dark Mirror
Buffy book: Mortal Fear
Buffy book: Spark and Burn
Buffy/Angel book: Heat
Angel book: Solitary Man
Angel book: Love and Death
Angel book: Monolith
Angel book: Nemesis
Angel book: Book of the Dead
Buffy book: Queen of the Slayers
Buffy book: Dark Congress

Thanks to Wikipedia!

[hitnrun017]

^^^Yeah, those are all the books, but not one of them are canon to the show. The author's specs had to approved by FOX and Joss' offices, like everything else. The novels are nothing more than just merchandise.

Here is something Joss said on Whedonesque:

"As for the books, I wish I'd had time to be involved. But I had to make a clean break or the show would have spiralled, so I've never read them. I've had fun with Nancy during our interviews, but I don't know the prose."

whedonesque.com/comments/10136

[SlayerLV]

I always thought Go Ask Malice was canon since that's where we learn Faith's last name.

[Emmie]

I think the one rule of Buffyverse canon is this - was Joss Whedon directly involved?

Sadly, he wasn't a creator of the novels nor did he even read them. Which means that what happens in those novels he can contradict in future developments and un-write them.

They're like professionally written fanfiction that turns a profit.

~

[hitnrun017]

Aug 26, 2008 1:54:04 GMT -5 SlayerLV said:

I always thought Go Ask Malice was canon since that's where we learn Faith's last name.

Joss came up with Faith's last name so they could use it in books, comics, etc. Go Ask Malice is still a very good read though, especially if you love Faith.

[SlayerLV]

Thanks for all the info guys

[taraswizard]

Written before

They're like professionally written fanfiction that turns a profit.

That's a self refuting statement, there's no such thing as as professional fanfiction and it cannot exist. Professional writting is antithetical to fanfiction. I'm not necessarily trying to do anything, my point is that once a product becomes a licensed and approved product it's not a fan product anymore. Example, the Serenity/Firefly novel written by Steven Barnes (a professional SF writer with a bibliography of original fiction credited to him) is fanfiction because it's not licensed.

Commenting on some of the texts previously referred to Spike and Dru... has a serious problem regarding where, when and the identity of Slayers killed by Spike. Book of Fours has serious issues resolving when the events in the book take place and the course of Xander's and Cordelia's relationship in the TV episodes. FYI, those two are a couple of my favorites.

To the best of my knowledge in no fan universe, from Star Trek through Star Wars including Xena, StarGate, all the way to BattleStar Galactica, the tie-in comics and tie-in novels are not canon. A way to explain it is something I read on a Xena tie-novel, "Original story using characters and situations from the hit TV show".

[jessesopher]

Aug 27, 2008 21:52:30 GMT -5 taraswizard said:

To the best of my knowledge in no fan universe, from Star Trek through Star Wars including Xena, StarGate, all the way to BattleStar Galactica, the tie-in comics and tie-in novels are not canon. A way to explain it is something I read on a Xena tie-novel, "Original story using characters and situations from the hit TV show".

That's not exactly true. Each fictional universe has its own unique law of canon. For example, in the Buffyverse, anything that had Joss' input is canon. It MUST have the input of the creator....

In Charmed, the whole series is considered canon even though the series creator left after season 3.... but in the Gargoyles (Disney TV show) universe, the third season isn't even remotely canon because the creator left, instead the new Gargoyles comics are considered the official continuation of the series after season 2.

Some universes even have various levels of canon. Consider Star Wars... nothing (except fanfics) is "uncanon".... but each part of the franchise has a different kind of weight of authority in the canon. For example, the Star Wars movie saga is the most authoritative source we have.... then comes the TV movies, TV tie-ins.... then it just goes on and on.... everything is canon, just some things are "more canon" than others. I didn't explain that very well, but Wikipedia is a great source for Star Wars Canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Canon). Star Wars canon is a bit much... a little too much organization for my taste... i just stick with the movies and TV series'.... the rest is just confusing to sort through.

So, as you can see, each universe has a different definition of canon. It's not a "one size fits all" kind of thing.

Am I geeky enough for you? haha.

[Emmie]

Tarawizard, in terms of what is canon and what isn't - I stand by my analogy.

Perhaps I should re-state my analogy to say instead the Buffy novels are as canonical as fanfiction written at a professional level. Better?

[jessesopher]

UPDATE: This is from Wikipedia on my discussion of the Star Wars canon.... These are the various levels of canon, it's called the Star Wars Holocron:
-----
The Holocron is divided into 5 levels: G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[2].

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.
-----

[leah]

Well, It all depends upon the fan I suppose. If a Fan wants it to be cannon, they'll say its cannon. As for the list of novels in my previous post, They are Considered Cannon. By who? By the fans that posted them.

Side-note: If Joss wasn't involved in "making the bucks" off the novels, why is it that those writing and publishing the novels are not being sued? As they are using copywritten characters, logos, etc? Someone approved them, and that someone is in on the making of the profits, therefore, they are approved btvs merchandise, which makes them cannnical by default. Yes, Joss may not have been involved, but the company was.

[jessesopher]

Aug 28, 2008 11:42:16 GMT -5 leah said:

Well, It all depends upon the fan I suppose. If a Fan wants it to be cannon, they'll say its cannon. As for the list of novels in my previous post, They are Considered Cannon. By who? By the fans that posted them.

Side-note: If Joss wasn't involved in "making the bucks" off the novels, why is it that those writing and publishing the novels are not being sued? As they are using copywritten characters, logos, etc? Someone approved them, and that someone is in on the making of the profits, therefore, they are approved btvs merchandise, which makes them cannnical by default. Yes, Joss may not have been involved, but the company was.

Joss doesn't own the Buffyverse at all. Fox does. I guess Joss has a deal with Fox that tie-in merchandise has to be approved by the Mutant Enemy office. But Fox grants the license to the publishers to be able to publish the novels. In no way are they considered canon.

But likeyou said, it's up the fan to determine his or her own canon... but officially, it takes place in "a different continuity" from the show.

[wenxina]

They are approved merchandise, yes, but they are not canonical.
If they were, there'd be a heck of a lot more inconsistencies in the Buffyverse. An example being Pretty Maids All In a Row, which despite being a good read, and having a somewhat similar plot to S7 contradicts canon because the second Slayer that Spike kills in that book is Sophie, whereas it's canon that Spike's second Slayer was Nikki.
Fans can pick and choose what they want to the point where the cows have made several return trips back to the pasture, but the fact remains that these "official merchandising opportunities" are not canon. Entertaining, maybe. Not canon.
If it were up to the fans, some fanfiction would be canon. It's like saying that it's up to believers to decide which books in the Holy Bible are canonical. Yeah, that's heresy. Point made.

[Emmie]

Here's what Wikipedia has to say on the subject:

"The Buffyverse canon consists of the television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, as well as the comics The Origin, Fray, Tales of the Vampires, Tales of the Slayers, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight, and Angel: After The Fall. All of the tie-in novels and video games, along with most of the comics, are largely considered either non-canon or apocrypha. Some of the comics are written by members of Mutant Enemy writing staff; the canonical status of these materials is still unclear. The 1992 movie is not considered canon. A comic adaptation based on Whedon's original script for the film was released, entitled The Origin, and this is considered canon instead." (Source: Canon(Fiction))

This link goes into greater detail: Buffyverse Canoncial Issues

It cites specific quotes by Joss Whedon and his views of what is canon in fictional universes. The following text is particularly relevant to the discussion of the canon status of licensed novels:

'When asked how much attention he pays to licensed works, Whedon said, "Not very much. I just don’t have time. I give them a few guidelines of things they should stay away from, things that we’re going to be dealing with or things that would disrupt the canon or things that are just antithetical to what I believe in."'

I read that as saying that the licensed novels contain stories running ancillary to the canon of the Buffyverse and can potentially disrupt it by breaking a story before the canon does, etc.

According to Jeff Mariotte, author of Buffyverse novels and comics states: "The rule in licensed fiction is that what's on the screen is canon, and the rest is not.”

In my opinion, the only person who has the creative power to contradict this rule is Joss Whedon.


I think if canon was left to be determined by all the fans, we would have an infinite number of different things being canon and no single definitive list. That's why it works to have it determined by Joss Whedon. His involvement so greatly affects the story direction, style, language and character development of the Buffyverse that it's immediately obvious when he's directly involved. He raises it to another level.

[patxshand]

No novels are canon. It's as simple as that. Canonical status has nothing to do with what fans want to consider canon. Canon is what the creator considers to be THE story, and Joss has never even read a Buffy book. He'll never reference them because in Joss's view of the 'verse (read: the canon of the 'verse) the events of those books never happened.

[SlayerLV]

Thanks for clearing that all up Emmie. Great find also, you're definately getting karma for that.

[simon]

Aug 25, 2008 0:19:01 GMT -5 SlayerLV said:

Does anyone know which of the Buffy and Angel novels are supposed to be canon?

The season 6 story "Again, Sunnydale" by Jane Espenson in the second volume of Tales of The Slayers could be wanked as canon (if it indeed it was orginally intended to be filmed as an episode).