lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 8, 2008 20:05:58 GMT -5
I don't remember what the thread was now, but we were discussing the question of whether Spike went to the demon at the end of Seeing Red to get his soul back or have his chip removed. I was the only one on the chip end of the argument. In defense of my argument I have some dialogue listed from Seeing Red and Villians. I am not sure how this translates to Spike getting his soul on purpose. There is only mention of the chip not a soul.
Seeing Red:
SPIKE
I can feel it. Squirming inside my
head.
CLEM
Love?
SPIKE
The chip. Little Jiminy Cricket,
gnawing bits and chunks.
Spike puts his fingers to his heads probing harshly as if he's going to gouge the chip out with his bare hands. Clem eyes him with concern.
CLEM
(re: Spike's head)
Maybe a wet cloth...?
SPIKE
Everything used to be so clear.
Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills
Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his
teeth with her bones.
CLEM
(queasy)
Metaphorically?
SPIKE
That's how it's always been. I've
tasted the life of two Slayers. But
with Buffy...
(hating himself)
This isn't the way it's supposed to
be. It's the chip. Steel and wires
and silicon. It won't let me be a
monster. And I can't be a man. I'm
nothing.
Spike's self-loathing hits an all time low. Clem gives him an encouraging pat on the shoulder.
CLEM
Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You
never know what's just around the
corner. Things change.
Spike considers that, his wheels turning.
SPIKE
They do.
(a beat)
If you make them.
Clem grins, slapping him on the back happily.
CLEM
There you go! Bright side! Chin up!
SPIKE
She thinks she knows me. She thinks
she knows who I am. What I'm capable
of. She has no idea. I wasn't always
this way. It won't be easy, but I
can be like I was. Before they
castrated me. Before...
(a beat)
Then she'll see who I really am.
Villians:
DEMON: Answer me.
SPIKE: Yeah. I seek you.
DEMON: Something about a woman. The slayer.
SPIKE: (nods, barely concealed anger) Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.
DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.
Close on the green glowing eyes as the demon laughs evilly.
SPIKE: What?
DEMON: Look what she's reduced you to.
SPIKE: It's this bloody chip-
DEMON: You were a legendary dark warrior, and you let yourself be castrated. (Spike looking angry) And you have the audacity to crawl in here and demand restoration?
SPIKE: I'm still a warrior.
DEMON: You're a pathetic excuse for a demon.
SPIKE: (angry) Yeah? I'll show you pathetic. Give me your best shot.
DEMON: You'd never endure the trials required to grant your request.
SPIKE: Do your worst. But when I win ... I want what I came here for.
The demon watches him, breathes loudly but says nothing.
SPIKE: Bitch is gonna see a change.
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Jan 8, 2008 21:12:37 GMT -5
There's no way he was there to become a shiny, happy kitten-man with a soul. He only went to the demon in the first place after attempting to rape his supposed "love". He wanted to kill her. I thought it was pretty clear that was why he was there in the first place.
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lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 8, 2008 21:28:45 GMT -5
Me too Commander. I think there are some die hard Spuffy shippers who have other opinions - not to mention the slack in that part of canon during season 7 when Spike goes on and on about how he got his soul for Buffy.
Let me make it clear that I love Spike - LOVE HIM! - and I even dug his relationship with Buffy. He was actually very insightful and wise for someone without a soul - but he absolutely went to get his chip removed so that he could be the "Big Bad". He needed to either be man or monster. Not struggle at being both.
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Post by spikeluv13 on Jan 9, 2008 1:12:14 GMT -5
Joss has stated that he wanted to make it a big shock at the end of the season b/c it was the end of the season, but spike went for his soul. I no longer have him saying that saved, but I am sure I can find it again.
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lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 9, 2008 1:19:09 GMT -5
I have heard that Joss said this. Honestly, I love Joss, but it sounds like back peddling. Why in the world would Spike's dialogue be full of chip references if he really wanted to get his soul back??? Seriously - if it's gonna be a shocking ending - but Spike knows it's going to happen - then it should at least make sense and have some things that lead up to it a little.
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Post by SlayerLV on Jan 9, 2008 2:13:39 GMT -5
Here's the thing though, why would he go to the demon to get the chip out if he wanted to kill Buffy? With the chip he was already able to hurt Buffy wouldn't that mean he could kill her too?
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 9, 2008 8:38:40 GMT -5
Spike didn't go there to get the chip out to hurt Buffy. He already could. It was a big fat (clumsy) mislead.
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Post by willowswarlok on Jan 9, 2008 9:02:58 GMT -5
i find the whole spike getting a soul plot rather ridiculous really
i thought, and still think, he went there to get his chip out. i know he could already hurt buffy, but i dont think he went there, intending to get his soul back.
the whole speech Spike says something about "Its the bloody chip".
Plus, i hate the way everyone thinks that Spike is a better man than Angel because he "sought" his soul out. Wow, after being on a murderous rampage for like 100 years after Angelus became Angel. Yes Angels soul was forced on him, but he lived with it and changed, and began doing good.
The only reason Spike "Converted" is because he was neutered by the Goverment Chip.
PLUS, at the end Spike seems very suprised when the demon says he will restore his soul.
I just think it was a last mintue decision by Joss, and in my eyes, not a very good one
Dont get me wrong, i love all things Buffy and i like Spike too, but i didnt like this plot
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lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 9, 2008 19:57:15 GMT -5
Yes, I couldn't agree more. Spike wasn't going to get the chip out to hurt Buffy. Per the lines he spoke from the above two episodes, he wanted to show her what he was before the government castrated him. That word is used twice in those eps. Once by Spike referring to the chip and once by the demon reffering to the affect Buffy had on Spike. I simply do not believe that Spike intended to get a soul. It was something the writers and Joss tossed around later for season 7, IMO, and not the original intention of the arc.
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commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
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Post by commandercool on Jan 9, 2008 20:47:10 GMT -5
Here's the thing though, why would he go to the demon to get the chip out if he wanted to kill Buffy? With the chip he was already able to hurt Buffy wouldn't that mean he could kill her too? He wanted to kill her, but he would've killed her friends first. That's what Angelus tried to do, and Spike has really just spent his whole unlife mimicing Angelus. THe whole thing's kind of wacky, though and not at all the point of those episodes. It was a tacked-on side plot. |
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esc
Common Vampire
no sheep here
Posts: 97
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Post by esc on Jan 10, 2008 0:46:23 GMT -5
From reading the lines, I thought Spike wanted the chip out so he could think straight. It sounds like he did feel that the chip was altering his thoughts and feelings. He was thinking if he got the chip out, he would look at humans as his Happy Meals on legs instead as humans again. To me, I think the demon gave him the soul on purpose because that was not what Spike asked for. He is a demon, he doesn't have to keep a promise to anyone even if they passed the trails.
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lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 10, 2008 1:00:08 GMT -5
Exactly. And the language was very unclear. Spike kept saying "You make me the way I was again" or something like that. With that kind of vague way of talking the demon could've made him a two year old again if he wanted to or just plain human in general. He could've made Spike anything he had ever previously been.
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Melissa
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 428
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Post by Melissa on Jan 10, 2008 4:57:13 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure when watching the episode I thought he went there to get his chip out and all of a sudden at the end its this 'holy crap!' moment when he actually gets his soul. So I definitely think that was not just a surprise to us but a surprise to Spike as well. I don't think he intended to get his soul back at all.
He has always hated Angel, why would he want to be like him?
He wanted to get his proverbial tubes un-tied so he could be a bad guy again and finally get back at Buffy.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 10, 2008 10:11:44 GMT -5
Harks back to the good ol' WWF.
"And that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold Mikey said so"
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Kratos
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:15]
Posts: 190
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Post by Kratos on Jan 10, 2008 10:55:27 GMT -5
He wanted to kill her, but he would've killed her friends first. That's what Angelus tried to do, and Spike has really just spent his whole unlife mimicing Angelus. THe whole thing's kind of wacky, though and not at all the point of those episodes. It was a tacked-on side plot. Ah no, Spike became the second worst vampire in history by following his own method of evil. Spike was the Slayer of Slayers, not Angelus. And if Spike had gone after her friends, it would be because he reconigzed that they are her strength. Angelus would go after them to damage her emotionally, that's what he does, he sees it as an art-form while Spike would much rather fight things out in epic style. I'm a 100% sure he went to get a soul and so does Joss, mostly it's just Spike-haters that try to diminish his actions. And they fail to realize that a plot-twist isn't new and is just another tool in story-telling. |
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Post by willowswarlok on Jan 10, 2008 14:25:38 GMT -5
Kratos, i like Spike, hes one of my favourite characters.
But i simply refuse to believe that Spike went there to get his soul back. I asked all my friends who watch Buffy, and they all think he went there to get his chip removed.
Fair enough, if Joss did intend him to get his soul back, then he did it badly. His plan did not work, his actions and dialogue led people to believe he went there to get his chip removed, not to get his soul back.
Also, it isnt Spike hater who choose to believe this about his chip. I find its actually Angel haters. The choose to believe that Spike sought out his soul, therefore making him a better guy than Angel is.
the proof of that is in this thread!
And Mikey. I thought this was a discussion, therefore, just because you say its a fact, doesnt mean it is. I can see from your post that your a Spike fan, therefore your opinions are going be biased towards hoping he is a better man than he was.
In my eyes, his soul was forced upon him just like Angels was
Wayne
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 10, 2008 16:01:09 GMT -5
I get arguing over something that is vague and/or left to interpretation (I argued with a guy for days about the souless boy in "I've Got You Under My Skin") but in this case it's been clarified both on the show and by the show's staff.
Spike had only been 2 things in his life: The evil vampire and the whimpy man. The chip was thrown about excessively to make this mislead work (and wow did it work, 5 years later and people are still mislead lol) but it was no longer part of the conflict. Try and argue that it was... he'd still be in that very confused place. He wasn't simply a vampire who can't perform at this point.
To be made what he was is to be changed, and he'd still be the same with the chip removed, just without a leash.
Why would he go to a very powerful demon for an operation anyway?
"Ask me again why I could never love you?" Answer that for Spike. It's important because it's his motivation to leave and seek out that demon.
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Melissa
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 428
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Post by Melissa on Jan 10, 2008 16:05:21 GMT -5
I like Spike. It wouldn't really make a difference to me whether he went to get his chip out or to get his soul.
I just re-read the dialogue from the episodes that was posted and it really does seem that he wants his chip out. But wouldn't there be an easier way?
If you look at the dialogue the demon does use the word 'restoration'. A word which was used alot in season 2 with regards to restoring Angel's soul. Maybe that is a clue? I dunno. I guess it really comes down to opinion. But if Joss says he went for his soul then maybe he did.
Is there commentary on that episode? Maybe that could shed some light.
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lee
Common Vampire
Posts: 56
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Post by lee on Jan 10, 2008 22:48:41 GMT -5
Okay, I am not a Spike hater! I love Spike and I always have. I love all of the characters actually and seem to love them more and more each time I watch the episodes. Anyway, I agree that if Spike getting his soul was the original intention then it was done badly by the writers. I get that there are cliff hanger type things and shocking endings in stories - believe me I get that. All I am saying is there was never any mention of a soul. Not one. There was only a whole lot of conversation about the chip. And yes, Joss plans the big stuff out in advance, but don't tell me that he and the writers don't sit around tossing ideas about. Let's say they are working on some season 7 eps and one of the writers says "What if Spike getting his soul back was really intentional? Then we could add all the sappy Spike and Buffy dialogue about the sacrifices Spike made for her and develop the new aspect of his character?" Seriously, that totally could've happened.
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Kratos
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:15]
Posts: 190
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Post by Kratos on Jan 11, 2008 2:13:04 GMT -5
Kratos, i like Spike, hes one of my favourite characters. But i simply refuse to believe that Spike went there to get his soul back. I asked all my friends who watch Buffy, and they all think he went there to get his chip removed. Fair enough, if Joss did intend him to get his soul back, then he did it badly. His plan did not work, his actions and dialogue led people to believe he went there to get his chip removed, not to get his soul back. Also, it isnt Spike hater who choose to believe this about his chip. I find its actually Angel haters. The choose to believe that Spike sought out his soul, therefore making him a better guy than Angel is. the proof of that is in this thread! And Mikey. I thought this was a discussion, therefore, just because you say its a fact, doesnt mean it is. I can see from your post that your a Spike fan, therefore your opinions are going be biased towards hoping he is a better man than he was. In my eyes, his soul was forced upon him just like Angels was Wayne It doesn't make any difference if Spike is one of your favorite characters, that doesn't mean that your opinion of him is correct or considerd fact. And yes, it is a fact that Spike went to get his soul, Joss's believes make it so. Nor you or your friends opinions change that. And he didn't do it badly, for most people it came as a huge shock, which is the way Joss intended for it to be revealed. Others like myself, saw the left hook coming, he makes vague references to the soul and uses the chip as an excuse. He coudl have already killed Buffy if that had been his true purpose, he chose instead to become a man. Nope, it's mostly Spike-haters, often disguised as people that say they like,love Spike so therefore they think they are right. It does make a difference that Spike willingly got his soul back and Angel was cursed, but that doesn't mean that either are better then one another. |
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