eternalspikefan
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I Can Feel It Buffy...My Soul![Mo0:37]
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Post by eternalspikefan on Sept 17, 2008 12:57:09 GMT -5
I too agree and was quite disappointed that they ruined Spike's whole heroic sacrifice/death by bringing him back. With that said...and yes I will note that I love Spike and am therefore extremely bias lol... Although it could be said that Spike was never the martyr type he was definitely a Champion and so deserved the heroic death in my opinion. I loved him on Angel Season 5. I think he brought a much needed breath of fresh air to the show. James and David are great together and Spike and Angel's chemistry is always hilarious. And also as it has been pointed out Spike more or less ensured season 5 of Angel so surely we can all agree that's a good thing  |
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Post by wenxina on Sept 17, 2008 13:15:55 GMT -5
I hear you. That was a stupid descision of the characters. I would atleast expect Giles to be ruthless enough to see the obvious, that if Spike loses his chip, he's dangerous again. And as seen, Spike could cause trouble with the chip. He could kill Angel, work with Adam and in season 6 he stole those eggs in the Riley-episode. If Giles could kill Ben, why not Spike? A poor descision by Joss. Sure, Spike added to the show, but he took away from the other characters, by making them go to easy on Spike. I wouldn't expect Xander and Willow to do the staking, but Buffy & Giles should have staked him. Giles did try to do Spike in. He let Wood have some private moments with Spike's face. Giles could never take Spike down on his own. A vampire, even a "harmless" one is still a force to be reckoned with. Ben was a different scenario, the guy was half-dead anyway at that point. It was an easy execution. But Giles is big picture guy; while Spike's chip was working, it made sense to allow him to help. I mean, other than Buffy, Spike was the strongest fighter on their team for a long while. It was when the chip went that Giles thought of staking Spike. Or letting someone else do it, at any rate. And when did Spike kill Angel? Unless you are suggesting the myriad ways in which Spike could cause trouble? Sorry, I'm just confused, since all the other things listed actually happened, so I wasn't sure if you meant that he could have done that, or that he actually did that. Because I'm pretty sure that Spike never killed Angel. |
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Enisy
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Post by Enisy on Sept 17, 2008 13:29:43 GMT -5
I guess he was referring to In the Dark? But Spike wasn't chipped then...
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 17, 2008 13:31:58 GMT -5
I hear you. That was a stupid descision of the characters. I would atleast expect Giles to be ruthless enough to see the obvious, that if Spike loses his chip, he's dangerous again. And as seen, Spike could cause trouble with the chip. He could kill Angel, work with Adam and in season 6 he stole those eggs in the Riley-episode. If Giles could kill Ben, why not Spike? A poor descision by Joss. Sure, Spike added to the show, but he took away from the other characters, by making them go to easy on Spike. I wouldn't expect Xander and Willow to do the staking, but Buffy & Giles should have staked him. Giles did try to do Spike in. He let Wood have some private moments with Spike's face. Giles could never take Spike down on his own. A vampire, even a "harmless" one is still a force to be reckoned with. Ben was a different scenario, the guy was half-dead anyway at that point. It was an easy execution. But Giles is big picture guy; while Spike's chip was working, it made sense to allow him to help. I mean, other than Buffy, Spike was the strongest fighter on their team for a long while. It was when the chip went that Giles thought of staking Spike. Or letting someone else do it, at any rate. And when did Spike kill Angel? Unless you are suggesting the myriad ways in which Spike could cause trouble? Sorry, I'm just confused, since all the other things listed actually happened, so I wasn't sure if you meant that he could have done that, or that he actually did that. Because I'm pretty sure that Spike never killed Angel. Nope, he didn't kill Angel. But he could have. I guess that was a bit unclear. I doubt that Giles is the kind of guy to go "Oh no, the evil guy is stronger than me, I won't try to kill it". Giles is a warrior, a good guy who fights evil, no matter if it's stronger than him or not. So I doubt he would choose not to kill evil just because it's stronger. That he the scoobies found a way to use Spike is true, but at first they didn't even know that Spike could hurt demons. They kept him for information, and then they got used to him. He got domesticated(?) and he didn't seem to be a big threat, i get that. And later on yes, he became an asset. But I doubt that a man with Giles experience would think that keeping Spike around was worth the danger. That was just bad writing. If Spike had lost his chip, everyone in Sunnydale that Giles cared about would be in danger. I can partly understand Willow's, Xander's and Buffy's ignorance, because they're young (although Xan & Will did lose Jesse to a vamp and should be thinking about the damage Spike could do) but Giles should have known better. And sure, he would have needed help to take Spike down, because Spike was still a force to be reckoned with. But if he wanted Spike dead, he could have done it(well, tried it), even if he had to get help (as seen in season 7). And how could Giles be willing to kill Spike (with a soul!) in season 7 but not in season 4?!? I can't imagine how he reasoned. |
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Enisy
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Post by Enisy on Sept 17, 2008 13:43:14 GMT -5
He couldn't kill in Season 4 (at least, not directly). In Season 7 he could, via the trigger.
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eternalspikefan
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Post by eternalspikefan on Sept 17, 2008 14:19:02 GMT -5
Good point! Why did Giles not try to kill Spike in season 4 regardless to being deemed 'harmless' but instead try to get rid of him in season 7 when he actually had a soul? Spike regained his soul, sought it out and fought for it...yet Giles did not consider this in any way when attempting to kill him. Just decided "Oh well Spike's bad better get rid of him against Buffy's wishes and behind her back to be on the safe side". *Tuts at Giles lol* It's a shame though, because I really respected Giles until that point |
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Enisy
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Post by Enisy on Sept 17, 2008 14:26:21 GMT -5
It's the same logic as the Ben situation. One life for the greater good (since Spike was being triggered by the First, and Buffy wasn't playing it as safe as she should have where he was concerned, 'cause she wanted to give him the chance to prove himself).
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 17, 2008 15:05:14 GMT -5
He couldn't kill in Season 4 (at least, not directly). In Season 7 he could, via the trigger. ' There are plenty of enough ways he could hurt or kill people. He almost got everyone killed when he helped Adam. If he go t horny he could go to the comaward at the hospital, and after doing his business there he could go to a retirement home and scare old people to death. |
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Post by wenxina on Sept 17, 2008 15:18:05 GMT -5
Nope, he didn't kill Angel. But he could have. I guess that was a bit unclear. I doubt that Giles is the kind of guy to go "Oh no, the evil guy is stronger than me, I won't try to kill it". Giles is a warrior, a good guy who fights evil, no matter if it's stronger than him or not. So I doubt he would choose not to kill evil just because it's stronger. That he the scoobies found a way to use Spike is true, but at first they didn't even know that Spike could hurt demons. They kept him for information, and then they got used to him. He got domesticated(?) and he didn't seem to be a big threat, i get that. And later on yes, he became an asset. But I doubt that a man with Giles experience would think that keeping Spike around was worth the danger. That was just bad writing. Didn't say that Giles wouldn't have tried, heck, he did. He let Wood try it. But what I was saying is that Giles could never fight Spike on his own, and really, he's smarter than that. If Giles had decided to take things into his own hands, people would have cried foul. Sure, Giles is a capable warrior, but so is Spike. And while disarming an old man would hurt some, not impossible. Spike was willing to risk the migraine of his life by blowing Buffy away with a shotgun... and vampires, no stranger to pain. Keeping Spike around wasn't so much bad writing as a chance to explore certain moral themes of the show. Spike's harmless, he can't hurt anyone. By your logic, Buffy should torch Willy's bar during happy hours to eliminate a whole host of demons then. Many of them have the potential to be malevolent. But she would never do it, because while demons may not all have a soul (do any of them have souls? Lorne is good, but does he have a soul?), she doesn't hunt them down if they don't hurt others. She even befriended Clem. If Spike had lost his chip, everyone in Sunnydale that Giles cared about would be in danger. I can partly understand Willow's, Xander's and Buffy's ignorance, because they're young (although Xan & Will did lose Jesse to a vamp and should be thinking about the damage Spike could do) but Giles should have known better. By that same argument, should Angel have lost his soul, he would have been just as bad, or worse. At least Spike doesn't enjoy psychological torture. Also, by that logic, all pitbull and rotweiller puppies should be killed because of their potential danger. And sure, he would have needed help to take Spike down, because Spike was still a force to be reckoned with. But if he wanted Spike dead, he could have done it(well, tried it), even if he had to get help (as seen in season 7). And how could Giles be willing to kill Spike (with a soul!) in season 7 but not in season 4?!? I can't imagine how he reasoned. Erm, because the chip caused debilitating pain, while a soul... well, thieves, murderers, rapists, child molesters, adulterers, cheaters, etc all have souls (assuming that they are human). Doesn't really stop them, does it? It's an interesting metaphysical point to ponder. I rather dwell on that thought, than question the actions of the characters. Humans are irrational... go figure. But to ride your train for a second, I've always seen Giles' animosity towards Spike in S7 to spawn partially from the fact that Buffy had stopped listening to him, and because he questions her judgment, he thinks that she's making all the wrong calls. I don't think it was ever personal... or at least not too personal. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 17, 2008 15:36:01 GMT -5
Didn't say that Giles wouldn't have tried, heck, he did. He let Wood try it. But what I was saying is that Giles could never fight Spike on his own, and really, he's smarter than that. Okay then, I thought you used Giles weakness as a reason for him not to kill Spike in season 4. My logic says "Kill the killers" not "Kill the potential killers". I think you simplified my reasoning too much. I would have no problem with killing soulless Spike, but i don'ty judge people by their specie, demon or human (okay, I would probably not cry if a vamp got killed, even if I can't be a 100% sure if that vamp is evil). I don't like Clem personaly because he hangs out with Spike and the other demons in Willy's (from my blurry memory of Life Seriel, those demons weren't very nice, but I could be wrong). But I don't think there has been given enough reason to kill him. Now I got off topic. Torture is always to some degree psychological, but I agree, Spike does enjoy the pain of the flesh more than the pain of the mind. And if we kill everyone or everything that is dangerous, there would be no life on this earth. Then giles should have killed himself, since he could have been turned to a vamp. And i'm not willing to go that far, there are limits to causion. I don't think you can compare chipped Spike, who is trying to get rid of his chip and harm the scoobis through other means(adam), to Angel who tries very hard to be a champion and not be happy and lose his soul. And sure, he would have needed help to take Spike down, because Spike was still a force to be reckoned with. But if he wanted Spike dead, he could have done it(well, tried it), even if he had to get help (as seen in season 7). And how could Giles be willing to kill Spike (with a soul!) in season 7 but not in season 4?!? I can't imagine how he reasoned. I see your point. Giles was in a unhappier place than in season 4, and he had reason to believe that Spike would go bad, even with a soul, considering Spike's reason history. I think I'm a bit too pissed of about the Wood/Giles conspiracy to analyse clearly. But Spike was just as dangerous in season 7 as in 4. The only difference was that in season 4 only Giles and the scoobies and others life were at stake, while in season 7, the world was at stake. perhaps Giles didn't realize or care about the indirect pain Spike could cause in season 4, but saw it clearer in season 7. *** Something I'm pretty sure is that if I was Buffy, or Willow(although she is very much a sooftie) or Xander or Giles, I hope I would have reacted differently. If there is a serialkiller tied to a chair, a killer who has tried to kill me and my friends, and killed lots of other people, I hope that after trying to get information from him, I would pick up a stake and kill this dangerous vile creature. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Sept 17, 2008 16:20:19 GMT -5
Giles didn't judge a harmless vampire worth killing. He was useful for information. The damage Spike did in season 4 was all do-able because everyone under-estimated his manipulative abilities. Once they'd found him out, he was - once again -harmless.
Giles wanted him dead in season 7 because he actually presented himself as a threat again; and there was probably many defensive father-figure feelings in there too because of Buffy's affection for Spike.
Why is it not surprising that the poster with the name "eternalspikefan" lost respect for Giles after he tried to have Spike killed? hehe
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Post by wenxina on Sept 17, 2008 19:23:34 GMT -5
Something I'm pretty sure is that if I was Buffy, or Willow(although she is very much a sooftie) or Xander or Giles, I hope I would have reacted differently. If there is a serialkiller tied to a chair, a killer who has tried to kill me and my friends, and killed lots of other people, I hope that after trying to get information from him, I would pick up a stake and kill this dangerous vile creature. I'm snipping off all the stuff above... didn't really disagree with anything enough. However... your comments here raise an interesting issue. While I don't think the idea was to contrast the death penalty with rehabilitation, I think that point is made here. True, Spike's pretty disgusting in S4. But as S5 swings about, you see him becoming a lot more integrated into the Scoobies... and there comes a point when Buffy trusts his to watch over Dawn. About staking the vamp after interrogating him, well... Buffy's kinda done that in S8... with the torching of the Japanese vampire. So I consider it wish come true.  PS: I'm loving how assertive you are in this discussion. :vampirebite: |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 18, 2008 4:12:09 GMT -5
Giles didn't judge a harmless vampire worth killing. He was useful for information. The damage Spike did in season 4 was all do-able because everyone under-estimated his manipulative abilities. Once they'd found him out, he was - once again -harmless. Harmless, until he once again could do harm. Come on, it's the Hellmouth. Did Giles and the other think "I bet Spike will never ever get a chance to work with someone evil to hurt us again". In season 4, we also se how Giles & Xander easily gave Spike info on Faith who joked about telling her were they are. In season 5 he tried to get the chip out, and with different knives, that doc could have gotten in out. If spike hadn't realized he was in love with buffy, he would have kept trying get rid of the chip and veentually succeded (not that I think that he stopped complelety, but he was busy with the stalking). True, Giles underestimated Spike. And after Primeval, he should have killed spike, they all should have. Because they're not morrons. *sigh* No, apprently I'm wrong, they don't learn from their mistakes. They're okay with letting Spike try to kill them over and over again. Don't take me wrong, I love Spike, but someone should have killed him. Something I'm pretty sure is that if I was Buffy, or Willow(although she is very much a sooftie) or Xander or Giles, I hope I would have reacted differently. If there is a serialkiller tied to a chair, a killer who has tried to kill me and my friends, and killed lots of other people, I hope that after trying to get information from him, I would pick up a stake and kill this dangerous vile creature. I'm snipping off all the stuff above... didn't really disagree with anything enough. However... your comments here raise an interesting issue. While I don't think the idea was to contrast the death penalty with rehabilitation, I think that point is made here. True, Spike's pretty disgusting in S4. But as S5 swings about, you see him becoming a lot more integrated into the Scoobies... and there comes a point when Buffy trusts his to watch over Dawn. About staking the vamp after interrogating him, well... Buffy's kinda done that in S8... with the torching of the Japanese vampire. So I consider it wish come true. PS: I'm loving how assertive you are in this discussion.  *looking up assertive* Oh, thank you. ;D You come up with the best analogys. Rehabilitation vs the death penalty. I would never would have made the connection. True, in this case mercy worked out fine, I admit that, even if I saw a lot of potential horrible senarios a-coming, but sometimes you should kill. Safety first and all that. But then who would I laugh AND drool at in season 4-7? Somehow I both hate AND love season 6. Specially the sock-scenes... |
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Post by wenxina on Sept 18, 2008 10:48:36 GMT -5
True, Giles underestimated Spike. And after Primeval, he should have killed spike, they all should have. Because they're not morrons. *sigh* No, apprently I'm wrong, they don't learn from their mistakes. They're okay with letting Spike try to kill them over and over again. Don't take me wrong, I love Spike, but someone should have killed him. Sense of honor prevented them from killing him? He did save them from being killed right after the spell ended. He was pretty sure to bring that up. No, people don't always learn from their mistakes... which makes me wonder if I'm any better than my puppy. *looking up assertive* Oh, thank you. ;D You come up with the best analogys. Rehabilitation vs the death penalty. I would never would have made the connection. True, in this case mercy worked out fine, I admit that, even if I saw a lot of potential horrible senarios a-coming, but sometimes you should kill. Safety first and all that. But then who would I laugh AND drool at in season 4-7? Somehow I both hate AND love season 6. Specially the sock-scenes... You're welcome. Sock-scenes? You mean the scenes with the conveniently placed items to block out Spike's dangly bits? But back to your point for a sec... well, that's what everyone else in the show was for: calling Buffy out on her decision to let Spike live. He even asked her to kill him in S7, but she didn't. And hey, I get bored sometimes... so those analogies, philosophical questions/musings/etc pop up every once in a while. |
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eternalspikefan
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Post by eternalspikefan on Sept 18, 2008 14:09:59 GMT -5
Giles didn't judge a harmless vampire worth killing. He was useful for information. The damage Spike did in season 4 was all do-able because everyone under-estimated his manipulative abilities. Once they'd found him out, he was - once again -harmless. Giles wanted him dead in season 7 because he actually presented himself as a threat again; and there was probably many defensive father-figure feelings in there too because of Buffy's affection for Spike. Why is it not surprising that the poster with the name "eternalspikefan" lost respect for Giles after he tried to have Spike killed? hehe Lol henz I did state I may be slightly bias towards it hehe  But it's good that you picked that up I get what you guys are saying though about the whole Spike was evil/dangerous thing hence Giles wanting to kill him, but surely after regaining his soul he proved that he was trying to redeem himself. When Willow went off the deep end Giles went all Dumbledore on her as she says in season 7. Or like Xander says in Selfless I think, when people in their group go evil they don't kill them they help them. So I think the same respect should be given to Spike considering he went out and fought for his soul.I understand that Giles was afraid the first would use The Trigger against Buffy but instead should he not have tried to help out more instead of simply going "Oh well" after one attempt at de-triggering him. I think that Spike never get's any respect because of the things he done when soulless, but if we are being fair and compared the things Angelus done in comparison to Spike I think most would agree that Spike at least helped the Scoobies out a lot (season 5 etc) as opposed to trying to psychologically torture Buffy (Angelus season 2) I used to strongly dislike Angel, I think most people are either Angel or Spike fans whereas now I love them both. So I know that having loyalty to one can throw you off the other. I just think that Spike should get more respect than he is given a lot of the time. I should probably add that although I lost respect for Giles a little, I still love him as much as the other Scoobies...I just assumed that was a given  Plus...Rhona took up most of my hatred anyway hahaha *On a side note by the way, why did Angel not go fight for his soul, would he have had to lose his soul before it could have been given back or something. I love Angel too and was just wondering why he never attempted to regain his soul after finding out Spike did. Does anyone know?* |
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Enisy
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Post by Enisy on Sept 18, 2008 14:19:28 GMT -5
Might as well ask why he and Spike don't hunt down a Mohra demon to become human again... |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 18, 2008 14:44:10 GMT -5
*On a side note by the way, why did Angel not go fight for his soul, would he have had to lose his soul before it could have been given back or something. I love Angel too and was just wondering why he never attempted to regain his soul after finding out Spike did. Does anyone know?* Why would he fight for his soul if he already had it? If he's soulless, he doesn't want his soul, and when he found out that Spike had fought for his, Angel couldn't go and do the same. I agree that Angel got somewhat more respect that Angel. But let's face it, most people who were a bitch to souled Spike were a bitch to Angel too (for example Wes, who didn't care that Spike could be sucked into hell. He didn't like Angel that much in the beginning either). |
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eternalspikefan
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Post by eternalspikefan on Sept 19, 2008 9:00:17 GMT -5
I know Angel already has his soul but I what I meant was why doesn't he go and try to get his soul back permanently? So the curse doesn't affect him? The gypsies cursed Angel with his soul yes, but I was thinking it doesn't really belong to him hence why the curse can de-soul him for lack of a better word if he has one moment of happiness. So I was just saying I thought maybe Angel could go fight for his soul so it belonged to him and that perhaps the curse would be lifted. But I was basing that on the assumption that Angels soul was cursed to him hence not belonging to him, whereas it probably does belong to him so it's alright I was just mentioning it Also I hear what you are saying about the same people disliking Spike and Angel initially so fair point! Perhaps it's just because Spike was recently re-ensouled, give him some time and hopefully he will get the same respect as Angel (Assuming of course he deserves it...I haven't read any of the Spike or Angel After The Fall comics yet so will need to wait and see) Interesting thread by the way |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 19, 2008 15:02:29 GMT -5
Aha, that way. Yeah, I always wondered why we never saw a episode or scene with Angel trying to "glue" his soul. It seems as if he should try, or atleast ask Spike how he got his, to research.
And about Spike being a champion... He's just like Angel. I just read Asylum, and in that(which some condsider canon) Spike killed a man just because he needed someone to die. I know it's not that detailed, but I don't want to spoil.
And since Angel killed that slave-demon in Not Fade Away, I figure that they're both just as good people...
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ded1
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Post by ded1 on Sept 20, 2008 7:59:48 GMT -5
Personally,in BTVS seasons 1&2,I was a little irritated with the fact that Giles accepted Angel so quickly.I mean,he lived with the supernatural all of his life(his mom was a watcher)and he was a part of the watchers.How many ensouled vampires have they(the watchers,that is)come across?It also bugged me a little that,in season 3,Giles never really questions when Angel and Buffy restart their relationship
As for Spike,while it was slightly annoying that they didn't stake Spike in season 4,but season 5 had me scratching my head.With Spike's attempt to have his chip removed and abducting Buffy in Crush,why they didn't end Spike then felt more like bad story-telling.Giles was willing to kill Ben to protect Buffy,but not kill Spike when he discovered that Spike had chained Buffy up and threatened to release Dru made no sense at all
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