Conversations With Dead People???

[vampiresaiyan]

Something that has kind of been bothering me as of late..."In Conversations With Dead People" Dawn is attacked by what seems like to be "The First" Considering what most of the episode is pertaining to., but The First is incorporial so how is it that Dawn is cut and hurt. So what was really up with Joyce's apperence? Was it The First or really her? Anyone have any opinions on this? Or maybe some revelation that I missed?

VS ^vv^

[Skytteflickan88]

In a interview or commentary of whatever one of the writers (Jane Espenson?) said it was the First not Joyce. She was surprised we thought otherwise. And think about the anti-pep-talks the "Joyce"-ghost gave Buffy during the season. Not exactly nice. Obviously the first wanted to divide and conquer.

And it's been speculated on this forum that The First has warlocks working for him, so maybe that's it. Or maybe Dawn was having a awake nightmares caused by the First, and she did all that damage on her own, panicking in her sleep.

It was weird of the writers not to clarify how the First did that to Dawn and the house.

[taintedblu]

I was under the impression it was the other way around - that Jane Espenson had in fact said that it was NOT the first, but I'm sure I got it backwards.

[Mathieu]

I already opened a poll on that matter a few months ago. I asked if people thought it was the First or Joyce. You should go read what people answered, it was pretty interesting to read everybody's theories.

[henzINNIT]

She confirms Joyce WAS the first.

I've always taken it as... Joyce's spirit protected the house, so the fucked up shit Dawn experiences is Joyce trying to block the first from entering. Dawn does that spell to exercise the evil spirits, and unintentionally banishes Joyce from the house, allowing the first to have a nice little chat with Dawn. I think it's a really dark perspective but it works and is painfully sad. The first probably took the form of Joyce to mock the situation too.

[matthewblake]

now I want to watch it

[VampSlayer]

I've thought about this as well. I came up with The First was with Willow, and it was really Dawn's mom talking to her. She was right, after all. Buffy DIDN'T choose Dawn when it got down to the final fight. She had Xander take her away, but Dawn pulled a trick, and came back. xD

[vampiresaiyan]

yeah it also made me think of Joyce saying buffy will be against you and in the episode where they kicked buffy out Dawn was the one to do it causing her to be against Buffy.

[wenxina]

Sept 11, 2008 21:42:45 GMT -5 VampSlayer said:

I've thought about this as well. I came up with The First was with Willow, and it was really Dawn's mom talking to her. She was right, after all. Buffy DIDN'T choose Dawn when it got down to the final fight. She had Xander take her away, but Dawn pulled a trick, and came back. xD

The First is not merely an entity; it's omnipresent, and omniscient (well, this one is debatable...).
So it's possible that the First could have been with both Willow and Dawn at the same time, working whatever hoodoo it wanted to. It was afterall impersonating the dead Potential, while torturing Spike in the visage of Drusilla/Buffy.
I don't think the bit about Buffy not choosing Dawn was ever really resolved. There was that one comment where Buffy says that she's big picture girl now, that she understands that sometimes a few must be sacrificed for the greater good, and if she had to make the same choice she made in S5 all over again, she would choose differently. But that's a pretty small payoff for something that raised so many questions when the issue first arose.

[henzINNIT]

Sept 11, 2008 23:59:24 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I don't think the bit about Buffy not choosing Dawn was ever really resolved. There was that one comment where Buffy says that she's big picture girl now, that she understands that sometimes a few must be sacrificed for the greater good, and if she had to make the same choice she made in S5 all over again, she would choose differently. But that's a pretty small payoff for something that raised so many questions when the issue first arose.

Absofuckinglutely

It giving that ^ mess a satisfying pay-off is the only thing that would turn me back onto Buffy "season 8". I've always hated how that huge plot point got swept under the rug.

[dane5by5]

Sept 14, 2008 16:35:33 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

Sept 11, 2008 23:59:24 GMT -5 wenxina said:

I don't think the bit about Buffy not choosing Dawn was ever really resolved. There was that one comment where Buffy says that she's big picture girl now, that she understands that sometimes a few must be sacrificed for the greater good, and if she had to make the same choice she made in S5 all over again, she would choose differently. But that's a pretty small payoff for something that raised so many questions when the issue first arose.

Abso[censored!]inglutely

It giving that ^ mess a satisfying pay-off is the only thing that would turn me back onto Buffy "season 8". I've always hated how that huge plot point got swept under the rug.

I don't think it was necessarily a plot point that was swept under the rug, the First was trying to manipulate all the characters and used Dawn's abandonment issues and insecurity against her. Just like it used Willow's grief and fear of magic against her.

That said, I also would love if there was some payoff in Season Eight about Buffy abandoning Dawn, or "not choosing her".

[Skytteflickan88]

Sept 11, 2008 21:57:24 GMT -5 vampiresaiyan said:

yeah it also made me think of Joyce saying buffy will be against you and in the episode where they kicked buffy out Dawn was the one to do it causing her to be against Buffy.

She might never have done that if the first hadn't made Dawn think that Buffy would not choose her.

Tricky, tricky Firsty.

And the theory about it being Joyce that protected the house and being exorcised by Dawn is poignant, and gives a new layer to the ep. I will keep that in my theory box.

*putting it in my theory box*