Joyce's tumor

[artiswar]

So I just had a bit of an epiphany... Could it be possible that the mind alteration that the monks inflicted on the Scoobs and others in order to weave Dawn into their memories, had a side effect on Joyce? Think about it. The first time we get a hint that something is wrong with Joyce is when she tells Dawn she's not her daughter. The fake memories had a lapse, and Joyce had a glimpse of reality before falling to the floor. Could it be that Dawn inadverently is responsible for the deaths of both her mother and sister? I think the original explanation was that Joyce was already going crazy, hence her ability to see into reality like other crazy people when looking at the Key, but i think my theory has merit as well, the idea that the wrinkle in the Joyce's fake memories mixed with original memories somehow created the shadow in her brain which ultimately caused her demise.. What do you think?

[Skytteflickan88]

It's a possibility. It wouldn't surprise me if the memory-spell caused or "helped" the tumor. After all, the monks were in a hurry and it would surprise me(even if the had planned for months, which they might have done) if they made a misstake or two. Unless they killed Joyce on purpose believing that Buffy wuld protect Dawn more if she lost her mom...

drama, drama, drama

[BennyTheKey]

Joyce only said "who are you" (before she collapses) to dawn like the other people glory had "drained" because she was going slightly crazy due to the turmour, and in the episode when she leaves the hospital, it is said that she might not be herself. Joss also said in something on the DVDS that there was no place for Her on the show no more, and needed Buffy to stand on her own two feet, if Joyce never died then season 6 might not have gone with the spike/buffy and buffy not being buffy storyline which i think would have been a bonus, but thats a different subject anyways im rambling ! But if none of that happened or was said your theory is a good one

[CowboyGuy]

It's true that if Joyce had lived, things would have played out MUCH differently. For one thing, the Scoobies might not have had the opportunity to ever raise Buffy from the realm of the dead. She may have stopped them...(?)

Also, I believe the writers wanted to show that a normal human death can occur in the 'verse. This is also something Buffy needed to learn to cope with. She cannot save everyone, there are somethings that she cannot undo, and cannot stop.

[henzINNIT]

Like CBG said, Joyce's death was to show that there is still a natural order and things Buffy couldn't change. Although I'm not doubting the memory spell could have affected things, I think it goes against the idea that characters can die of natural causes.

[Rachster]

I personally don't think dawn & the memory altering had anything to do with Joyce she just had a tumor it happens..

[Wyndam]

I was thinking about this the other day, and I noticed that none of the major deaths on Buffy were really mystical, besides Buffy's second death, Angel's in Season 2, and Spike's death in Chosen.

Buffy- Bitten by The Master/drowned
Jenny- Neck broken by Angelus
Kendra- Throat slit by Drusilla
Joyce- Aneurism
Tara- Gunshot from Warren
Anya- Cut through by a Bringer knife

I will agree though that Joyce's stands out as being the only death that Buffy/other character's had virtually no control over.

[BennyTheKey]

Tara's death was also natural, but she couldnt be brought back to life

[henzINNIT]

Apr 26, 2008 14:05:24 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

I was thinking about this the other day, and I noticed that none of the major deaths on Buffy were really mystical, besides Buffy's second death, Angel's in Season 2, and Spike's death in Chosen.

Buffy- Bitten by The Master/drowned
Jenny- Neck broken by Angelus
Kendra- Throat slit by Drusilla
Joyce- Aneurism
Tara- Gunshot from Warren
Anya- Cut through by a Bringer knife

I will agree though that Joyce's stands out as being the only death that Buffy/other character's had virtually no control over.

Although it's true that none of those deaths are directly mystical, all but Tara and Joyce are instigated in a world of magic.

[Emmie]

I think artiswar might have hit on something. The first time Joyce mentions having a headache is in 'Real Me' when Dawn is in the entire episode finally.

Also in 'Shadow' Giles says: "The truth is, uh, the ... mystical and the medical aren't meant to mix, Buffy. Sorry, um .. .the human mind is very delicate. Too much can go wrong."

Out of all the people that had the Dawn memory spell, Joyce would be the one with the most memories necessary to be altered. Buffy coming in second, but her being the slayer would counteract whatever ill effects might be possible.

I think the memory spell probably gave Joyce the shadow, or exacerbated a potential suscepitiblity that Joyce had to a tumor growth. Like Giles said, the human mind is too delicate and there's so much that could potentially go wrong. Magic and consequences are always referenced on the show - the creation of Dawn and the memory spell is some of the hugest magic we've ever seen in the Buffyverse. And what are the consequences - that Joyce got a brain tumor as a result.

Basically, in a thematic sense Dawn killed Joyce in order for Buffy to grow up and become the mom/big sis. But plotwise, I think Dawn's arrival also physically caused the the brain tumor.

Doesn't it seem a bit coincidental that Joyce has a brain tumor in a season about Glory-brainsucking, crazy people, and monk-created-memories?

I wonder if the writers intended this, somehow I think not. But it has the potential to be a heartwrenching retcon. Buffy realizing that Dawn is the reason her mother is dead. And that her being the Slayer made her mother a target for this spell.

[wenxina]

May 8, 2008 20:29:11 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I think artiswar might have hit on something. The first time Joyce mentions having a headache is in 'Real Me' when Dawn is in the entire episode finally.

Also in 'Shadow' Giles says: "The truth is, uh, the ... mystical and the medical aren't meant to mix, Buffy. Sorry, um .. .the human mind is very delicate. Too much can go wrong."

Out of all the people that had the Dawn memory spell, Joyce would be the one with the most memories necessary to be altered. Buffy coming in second, but her being the slayer would counteract whatever ill effects might be possible.

I think the memory spell probably gave Joyce the shadow, or exacerbated a potential suscepitiblity that Joyce had to a tumor growth. Like Giles said, the human mind is too delicate and there's so much that could potentially go wrong. Magic and consequences are always referenced on the show - the creation of Dawn and the memory spell is some of the hugest magic we've ever seen in the Buffyverse. And what are the consequences - that Joyce got a brain tumor as a result.

Basically, in a thematic sense Dawn killed Joyce in order for Buffy to grow up and become the mom/big sis. But plotwise, I think Dawn's arrival also physically caused the the brain tumor.

Doesn't it seem a bit coincidental that Joyce has a brain tumor in a season about Glory-brainsucking, crazy people, and monk-created-memories?

I wonder if the writers intended this, somehow I think not. But it has the potential to be a heartwrenching retcon. Buffy realizing that Dawn is the reason her mother is dead. And that her being the Slayer made her mother a target for this spell.

Brain tumors can grow really fast, suddenly. They can start, stick around for ages, and then suddenly go nuts. I don't think that the false memories had anything to do with the tumor... it's possible that she had it for a while, just never experienced any side effects.
Her being disoriented and granted a moment of clarity was probably the first sign that the tumor was beginning to impinge on certain vital areas of the brain.

In S5, only crazies, those brainsucked by Glory included, could see Dawn for what she truly was, probably because their perception of reality was a little out of phase with everybody else's. In those moments when she was disoriented, Joyce probably experienced similar moments of being out of phase with reality, and therefore could see Dawn as the Key, and not her daughter.

I buy your theory about the human mind being too delicate to handle all that mystical tampering, until the fact that Hank Summers should also probably have needed massive amounts of tampering. Maybe Joyce was more predispositioned, but that can't be proven.

As for the coincidence bit... I think that it's telling that Glory only sucked the mind, not the heart. It's kinda ironic that she begins to "feel"; her personality begins to bear remnants of Ben's. The overarching theme of the season was less about thinking, and more about feeling anyway, as corny as it sounds. Buffy feels the darkness in her, and wants to understand it. She knows that Dawn's not really her sister, and yet, she feels that she is. She still loves her. She doesn't understand the words of the first Slayer, but she feels them... it's only when she has to save her sister that she truly understands what it means that death is her gift. Tara reveals that when she was "gone" she got so lost, but she was still trying to find Willow. It was a feeling, an inert knowing that Willow was her safeplace, even when her mind was a slushy.

[CowboyGuy]

I still stand by my thought...I don't think Dawn's creation caused the tumor.

But here's an interesting idea...just HOW powerful were those monks?! I don't think Willow would be powerful enough to cast a reality altering...permanent spell like that! The sheer magnitude and characters affected is insane. I am sure than characters such as: Oz, Angel/Angelus, Cordelia, Wesley, and maybe more are also under the memory spell. Pretty much anyone who came into contact with Buffy prior to Season 5 must be affected somehow. Even some of her fellow classmates might have had to be aware that "Buffy has a little sister". That's nuts!

[Emmie]

I don't think that the cause of Joyce's tumor is explicitly tied to the memory spell. But that it lines up quite nicely and if Joss wanted to he could easily retcon it to be so. All he'd have to do is say "yep the memory alterations caused Joyce's tumor" without having to change anything.

As for Hank not having any negative development from the spell, some people are more susceptible to developing illnesses. Perhaps Joyce was more predisposed to it. People can live in the same conditions with similar genetic make-up but one can develop cancer while the other doesn't. The mysteries of modern science.

Its an interesting possibility that I doubt will ever be addressed because its now 3 seasons ago.

[artiswar]

May 8, 2008 22:56:20 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I don't think that the cause of Joyce's tumor is explicitly tied to the memory spell. But that it lines up quite nicely and if Joss wanted to he could easily retcon it to be so. All he'd have to do is say "yep the memory alterations caused Joyce's tumor" without having to change anything.

As for Hank not having any negative development from the spell, some people are more susceptible to developing illnesses. Perhaps Joyce was more predisposed to it. People can live in the same conditions with similar genetic make-up but one can develop cancer while the other doesn't. The mysteries of modern science.

Its an interesting possibility that I doubt will ever be addressed because its now 3 seasons ago.

To be honest, I like this theory of the fake memories being a catalyst or at least a contributing factor of the shadow so much that it's always going to be in the back of my mind, simply because it can't really be proven or disproven... I think it's just one of those great things Joss specifically leaves ambiguous for the sake of rabid speculation.

[artiswar]

May 8, 2008 22:52:09 GMT -5 CowboyGuy said:

I still stand by my thought...I don't think Dawn's creation caused the tumor.

But here's an interesting idea...just HOW powerful were those monks?! I don't think Willow would be powerful enough to cast a reality altering...permanent spell like that! The sheer magnitude and characters affected is insane. I am sure than characters such as: Oz, Angel/Angelus, Cordelia, Wesley, and maybe more are also under the memory spell. Pretty much anyone who came into contact with Buffy prior to Season 5 must be affected somehow. Even some of her fellow classmates might have had to be aware that "Buffy has a little sister". That's nuts!

Well, it seems like the monks are more or less as powerful as Cyrus Veil, the demon who crafted all of Connor's memories along with the whole fang gang. While Veil pretty much hand crafted each memory like it were a piece of artistry, all we see of the monks creating the spell, is a big flash of light, a surge of it shooting up into the sky. So, I don't know. I find it hard to believe that the monks personally made each and every individual memory the way Veil did. I got the impression that the whole spell was very last minute and last resort. Does this mean that the monks were all sorts of powerful? Probably not. They could do nothing once Glory got a hold of them. So I'm lead to think that they probably merely tapped into a greater power in order to execute the memory spell, as opposed to customizing the thing themselves. So whodunnit? The Powers? Who knows..

[buffyfan21]

Ya know, I never really thought that it could have been the monks messing with everyone's memories that resulted in Joyce's tumor and eventual death, but that theory does makes sense, and I think it's entirely plausible, which makes the whole thing even more tragic, making Dawn inadvertently responsible for her mother's death.

[diabeticdude202]

That's what I think triggered Joyce's tumor -- she's older than Buffy so she's lived longer with all of her childhood memories and her adult mermories -- when the monks added to those memories by putting Dawn in them it triggered it. I liked that scene when she's holding the plate with the pancakes on it and says something like "Who are you?" to Dawn before fainting -- it was as though the DAWN memories had been erased for a second, like her actual memories were fighting back. I still think that if JOYCE didn't die in season five the sixth season wouldn't be so dark; Dawn wouldn't have been so whiney seeing as she wasn't alone after Buffy's death; when Buffy came back she wouldn't turn her anger into the jones for SPIKE; and Giles would have been in the season more.

[CowboyGuy]

Nov 27, 2008 5:58:55 GMT -5 diabeticdude202 said:

That's what I think triggered Joyce's tumor -- she's older than Buffy so she's lived longer with all of her childhood memories and her adult mermories -- when the monks added to those memories by putting Dawn in them it triggered it. I liked that scene when she's holding the plate with the pancakes on it and says something like "Who are you?" to Dawn before fainting -- it was as though the DAWN memories had been erased for a second, like her actual memories were fighting back. I still think that if JOYCE didn't die in season five the sixth season wouldn't be so dark; Dawn wouldn't have been so whiney seeing as she wasn't alone after Buffy's death; when Buffy came back she wouldn't turn her anger into the jones for SPIKE; and Giles would have been in the season more.

Agreed on all counts, which is why she probably had to go! The writers were wacky like that hehe.

[BenTaylor3907]

I don’t like this thread, it breaks my heart just thinking about Joyce. But I do agree with you guys that the memory spell had something to do with Joyce’s demise. And if so, I’m glad the monks were slaughtered like swine by Glorificus. Sorry, I was a little too morbid there for a second. I believe that her death was the most emotional out of everyone else who passed away. I would have loved to see her in season seven, dusting Turok Han after Turok Han in order to prevent them from getting to Buffy and the gang. Joyce Summers VS The First would have been an awesome showdown. Joyce would obviously win, as long as she had her trusty axe with her. Besides, what’s stronger than a mother’s love for her child? You know?

[luna]

Artiswar, I thought about this the first time the ep. when joyce got sick aired. I had the exact same thought about the memory thing years ago. I fully agree with it and think it's the reason she died.