Ensouled Vampires

[drufan]

Why couldn't Willow and Giles, being the super-Witch and Watcher they were, modify the ensouling Angel curse to remove the stupid happiness clause and ensoul other vampires? It seems like Spike and Angel are two of the best warriors for the PTBs. Wouldn't other ensouled vamps be great allies as well? Especially those that didn't choose to be vamped in the first place, like Dru?

Sorry if this is a rambling post - just wondered what people thought about it.

[strawberry]

Sometimes I drive myself looney by thinking about things like that, too.
If Angel kept his soul and was still pretty much immortal but didn't have the happiness clause he could be with Buffy, but Buffy would still age while Angel was eternally young and then they'd be like The Highlander and would he have to give Buffy up and move on in order to preserve his identity?

[shondrasu]

I think that Willow or Giles couldn't change the spell because they didn't know enough about the original Gypsy magics. The Gypsies could have put a safeguard on it. They wanted Angelus to suffer with the soul, so maybe trying to change that would have resulted in him losing his soul, Angelus taking over or an instant dusting.

[drufan]

I haven't seen Highlander, but I think the Mayor brought up something similar to that. Didn't he have a wife who ended up cursing him for his youth? That seems to be the curse of immortality, being forced to watch those you love grow old and die while you stay the same. That would be so hard!

Shondrasu: That's a really interesting point! I wish the show would have explored that a little bit more. It always seemed to me that the demon, Angelus, got away with it and Angel was punished. Didn't seem fair, ya know?

[strawberry]

If Angel were to be the winner of the Shanshu Prophecy then would that mean that he was no longer a vampire and immortal and with his present strength and powers? If that were true, then I wonder if Buffy would still love him the same if he had no special attributes - other than his winning personality and astounding good looks, of course ? Seriously though, would she still love him in the same way if he was just a normal guy?

[shondrasu]

I think the Shanshu Prophecy was saying Angel would be completely human. No super strength or powers. He's lived a long time and the perks would be to just enjoy a human life, taste the food and be completely happy(with no curse).

That's a really good question. Yes, if the war/battle was completely over and Buffy as the Slayer didn't have anything to fight. She could be a normal girl, be with a human Angel and be happy. I remember that episode where Angel absorbed that demon blood and became human but almost got himself killed. Slayer Buffy needs a guy with Powers.

[drufan]

Yeah - Angel didn't last one day without his powers (can't remember the episode name) before running to the Oracles to ask for them back. I don't think he would be very happy if he became human.

[shondrasu]

Am I the only one that pictures Human Angel getting this big beer belly and Buffy looking at him like, He use to be hot?? lol

[shep]

drufan said:

Yeah - Angel didn't last one day without his powers (can't remember the episode name) before running to the Oracles to ask for them back. I don't think he would be very happy if he became human.

I will remember you - thats the episode.

He gave up the love of his life so that he could be a champion. Very sad but good for us, or else that would have been the end of series Angel!

Who do you think in the end would have become human as said in the shansu prophecy? Because Angel did sign away in season 5 his right to become human.

[Ouija]

I can't remember exactly, but as far as I can recall, didn't Angel not use his correct signature on that document?

If I'm remembering right, he signed something or other earlier on in the episode, or the season, whichever, for either Wesley or Gunn. They made a note of directing the camera so we could see his signature. I'm fairly sure they did the same when he signed his (human) life away, but his signature was different?

Only flaw was that he signed in his own blood, right? So it wouldn't really matter what his signature was,since the document had his blood anyway...

I always wondered what was up with that, since it wasn't clear?


As for the whole curse thing, yeah, I wonder why not. I mean, if Willow had the power to make hundreds of slayers, surely she could alter one minor curse? I always thought the curse was a little strange anyway. Darla overreacted when she became human and had all that guilt, desperately wanting to become a vampire again. Surely it must have been the same/similar for Angel? When he felt all that guilt, wouldn't he have wanted to become a vampire (Well, lose his soul) again, to get rid of it? It'd have just encouraged him to get all happy.

[Ouija]

I found the images that I mean. The first is seen on a document in "Origin" that Wesley finds, which was presumably signed in "Home" about the Connor spell idea.

I don't know, I may be looking too much into it, since Angel did have his hand stabbed when signing the second one, but they do look a little on the different side. I always thought that the scribble in "Not Fade Away" was done to look like that on purpose, to make it not actually Angels proper signature. It's maybe more because David Boreanaz probably didn't sign the document seen in "Origins" but he did in "Not Fade Away" - who knows.

[drufan]

Interesting!!!!!!! I didn't realize the two signatures were that different. I thought maybe Spike was the one the prophecy was meant for. He was so human even as a vampire that I don't know if the adjustment would be as difficult for him. He could continue to fight as a human, he would just have to adjust to not being as strong (physically) as he once was.

Shondrasu, I cracked up over that visual of Angel with a beer gut and Buffy just shaking her head over him. I really needed a good laugh today so thank you so much!

[strawberry]

It's a little off topic, sorry, but the discussion made me think of Fred/Illyria. So many have said that Fred can't come back because her soul is dead, but if a vampire is a soulless dead thing and the Gypsys were able to ensoul Angel with a curse, then isn't it possible that Fred could return? I realize her body is gone and that might be a problem , but the possibility isn't totally lost is it if it was possible with Angel and Spike to regain their souls? (I don't have perfect memory for all details of all things Buffy and Angel, so sorry if I'm grasping at straws)

Angel's signature - they made a big deal over his signing that in the episode but never explained did they!?! Maybe if they do Season 6 Angel comic they will have to bring that up and explain it, that would make a good storyline.

[gwen raiden]

Re: Fred/Illyria being re-ensouled. If I remember correctly both Angel and Spike thought of that but they were told that her soul was destroyed completely so they could not bring it back.

[Ouija]

Yeah, was it the evil doctor guy who said something along the lines of:

"Her soul was consumed in the fires that are Illyria" - or something similar, implying that Illyria ate her, in a sense.

But, given the nature of the person who provided the gang with that imformation, he could have just been lying to make them upset, or to not even try, and just give up and let Illyria be. So many questions unanswered. There were rumours which supposedly stemmed from Joss and Amy at conventions and interviews that Fred and Illyria were to be separated if there was a S6, but who knows if that's true, since it was also rumoured that Wesley would have survived as well.

Here's hoping for a Season 6 in comics! IDW would be nuts not to make one, after seeing the popularity of Buffy S8.

[CowboyGuy]

Yes, and I think Drogyn might have said the same thing as well.

I think that is why Illyria retained memories and such from Fred, because Illyria consumed her entire being...body, soul, mind.

It's sad

[drufan]

That is pretty horrible.

I hope they do an Angel season 6 comic where they address this issue and we learn Fred's soul was not destroyed. That would be great.

[spikeluv13]

so i always thought that to clear up the whole buffy aging thing, if they found a way to ensoul permenantly (such as spike did) she could do the whole vamp thing and be even stronger with the whole slayer thing and really kick some booty!! Then she could choose spike or angel to be with and live forever kicking demon butt!!! while still having a soul. hey, fixes everything, right? hehehehe.. just a thought!

[Emmie]

i remember reading an interview somewhere (can't remember where exactly) but that if AtS hadn't been cancelled, Season 6 would have explored Illyria's development and it would have been revealed that Fred's soul hadn't been destroyed. and of course Wes wouldn't have died at the end of Season 5.