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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 6, 2009 15:11:31 GMT -5
#5 seems to be the most controversial issue - either you Love it or you Hate it. I'm in the love column. It's intense and the ending made me cry. I mostly agree. I've never been able to decide whether it was appropriate or not that we never find out the protagonist's real name. I lean toward wishing we had. After all, her sacrifice was hers, not Buffy's. #23 is one of those issues that's probably going to grow in my estimation as time goes by and its place in the overall season 8 becomes clearer. The same might be said of all the issues in this arc. So far, the Predators & Prey arc for me has been about 25% loved it, 65% enjoyed it, 10% hated it.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 6, 2009 15:32:32 GMT -5
Yeah, totally, it was just the way he said "of course" as though it was universally hated. I've heard mostly good things about #5 so that surprised me. I love #5. That issue is so deep. So many layers to peel back and explore. It's complex and confusing on initial reads, but it reminds me of Restless in that you have to keep looking at it to truly understand and appreciate it. #5 seems to be the most controversial issue - either you Love it or you Hate it. I'm in the love column. It's intense and the ending made me cry. The "majority" saw it as a step down? Granted, I didn't really read these forums back then but I've always heard very good things about #5. A couple of people not liking it (usually for superficial reasons like "it has faires" and "the Scoobies aren't in it"), but certainly not the majority. Emmie, I completely agree with your statement. I wasn't sure what to make of "The Chain" at first, partly because of the non-linear storytelling, but when I re-read it I realised how good it was. The Buffy decoy has been one of S8's best original characters, which is quite an achievement for an unnamed one-off character. I've never been able to decide whether it was appropriate or not that we never find out the protagonist's real name. I lean toward wishing we had. After all, her sacrifice was hers, not Buffy's. I much prefer that we don't. She doesn't need recognition, that wasn't the point of her sacrifice. Plus it makes the character more tragic, and as you know from the whole Fred soul debate, I quite like it when fiction is cruel. Sorry for turning this into a total #5 thread! I agree with Andrew that I'll probably prefer the "Predators and Prey" arc when the season is further along. Right now it's a bunch of one-shot character pieces with the overall story just bubbling away in the background. Which is fine, because I trust the writers, but a little confusing at the moment. When we see where the whole "Vamps in, Slayers out" story goes, it'll matter more in retrospect.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 6, 2009 15:44:20 GMT -5
I've never been able to decide whether it was appropriate or not that we never find out the protagonist's real name. I lean toward wishing we had. After all, her sacrifice was hers, not Buffy's. I think it was necessary that we never learned her name because her sacrifice wasn't about us knowing her. That's her final statement. That only she herself can determine the true value of her life and her choice was to give her life for the connection to her sisters. To protect the world. By stripping her of her name, she becomes a hero who can and never will seek glory. She is the archetype for the noble hero. She *is* a hero. Heck, just call her Hero (Greek name). There I've named her.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 6, 2009 15:46:13 GMT -5
I much prefer that we don't. She doesn't need recognition, that wasn't the point of her sacrifice. Plus it makes the character more tragic, and as you know from the whole Fred soul debate, I quite like it when fiction is cruel. It's odd, because we're obviously supposed to form emotional bonds with these characters... even ones we've only known for the space of one issue/episode. Yet I find it impossible to enjoy cruelty to characters I've formed such a bond with, any more than I'd enjoy witnessing cruelty toward my real-life friends. This indicates there must be something wrong in the way I approach these stories. And I wish I could resolve that, because it often stands in the way of my truly enjoying Joss's stories, as brilliantly told as they are.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 6, 2009 16:18:56 GMT -5
I much prefer that we don't. She doesn't need recognition, that wasn't the point of her sacrifice. Plus it makes the character more tragic, and as you know from the whole Fred soul debate, I quite like it when fiction is cruel. It's odd, because we're obviously supposed to form emotional bonds with these characters... even ones we've only known for the space of one issue/episode. Yet I find it impossible to enjoy cruelty to characters I've formed such a bond with, any more than I'd enjoy witnessing cruelty toward my real-life friends. This indicates there must be something wrong in the way I approach these stories. And I wish I could resolve that, because it often stands in the way of my truly enjoying Joss's stories, as brilliantly told as they are. Oh, I'm totally the opposite. I love seeing characters suffer and in pain. It's usually when the story is at it's most emotional and affecting. Blood-spattered Willow cradling her dead lover and screaming for answers? Ecstasy. Don't know if you watch Doctor Who, but there was a particularly cruel story in which Donna, a totally ordinary and rather shallow woman, explores the wonders of the universe with her best friend, the Doctor. She evolves into this amazing person. At the end of the season, tradgegy strikes and due to some sci fi mumbo jumbo, she has to have her memories removed. It was a truly sick ending for the character, because instead of dying, she had to go back to her old mundane life with no knowledge of what potential she really has. She was robbed of all those wonderful experiences. I can't do the story justice by explaining it, but rarely has fiction ever affected me so much as that episode and I loved it. Just to clarify that I'm not a complete sociopath, I do enjoy seeing characters happy as well. Which is why I loved #23. How's that for bringing things full circle?
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Mar 6, 2009 16:26:39 GMT -5
A couple of people not liking it (usually for superficial reasons like "it has faires" and "the Scoobies aren't in it"), but certainly not the majority. I don't know about other people's reasons, but the reasons that I don't like it and the reasons I saw other people saying they didn't like it go far beyond "it has (fairies)." The jokes are very non-Whedon, in that they're not funny, especially the egg-in-ear gag. The conversation between the school girls is stilted, and the non-linear sections of the story (the "Who are you?" especially) works to make the already iffy story even murkier instead of adding depth. There doesn't seem to be a REASON to it being non-linear, and when one uses that kind of story structure, there has to be a reason behind every twist and turn. Take "Adaptation," (a great, fairly non-linear film) for example. It uses the untraditional structure to underline theme, plot, and characters. In "The Chain," I felt as if it was forced and didn't really reenforce anything but the incoherence of the story's direction. Just my opinion, definitely not a popular one on Slay Alive, but I think Joss's other work on Season Eight totally outshines what he tried to do with The Chain. What I can say, though, is I'm glad Joss is still experimenting with different things. Not everything will work for everyone, but the book worked for some of you guys, so I'm glad for that.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 6, 2009 16:45:08 GMT -5
Oh, I'm totally the opposite. I love seeing characters suffer and in pain. It's usually when the story is at it's most emotional and affecting. Blood-spattered Willow cradling her dead lover and screaming for answers? Ecstasy. Wow. I don't think I even have the capacity for that within me. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I just don't enjoy pain. I have enough of it to deal with in real life. Seeing people I love (real or imaginary) in pain makes me nauseous, not happy. Especially when I know nothing is going to come along to make it better. That doesn't bode well for the future of my Whedon fandom, and that makes me sad. Because I can just about guarantee Season 8 is going to bring pain like we've never even dreamed of before. Honestly, I can't guarantee I'm going to be able to be around for the end. I've never been so afraid of something I derive so much enjoyment from. There's no bigger idiot than a Whedon fan who likes happy endings. And I am that idiot. Don't know if you watch Doctor Who, but there was a particularly cruel story in which Donna, a totally ordinary and rather shallow woman, explores the wonders of the universe with her best friend, the Doctor. She evolves into this amazing person. At the end of the season, tradgegy strikes and due to some sci fi mumbo jumbo, she has to have her memories removed. It was a truly sick ending for the character, because instead of dying, she had to go back to her old mundane life with no knowledge of what potential she really has. She was robbed of all those wonderful experiences. I can't do the story justice by explaining it, but rarely has fiction ever affected me so much as that episode and I loved it. Yep, I'm a big fan of Doctor Who. That scene was affecting, but the reason it didn't get me as much as, say, Tara's or Fred's death, is that there's no sentence of finality to it. We all know that if the story calls for it, Donna's memories can be restored. And even if they're not, she still gets to live her life with the potential for happiness. It's similar to the earlier scene in which the Doctor had to leave Rose in her alternate universe, knowing ( so he thought) that he'd never see her again. Just to clarify that I'm not a complete sociopath, I do enjoy seeing characters happy as well. Which is why I loved #23. How's that for bringing things full circle? You would have preferred "The Gift" to "Chosen" as a series finale, wouldn't you? If so, I think you're going to love Season 8. I'm not so sure I will.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 6, 2009 17:17:37 GMT -5
A couple of people not liking it (usually for superficial reasons like "it has faires" and "the Scoobies aren't in it"), but certainly not the majority. I don't know about other people's reasons, but the reasons that I don't like it and the reasons I saw other people saying they didn't like it go far beyond "it has (fairies)." The jokes are very non-Whedon, in that they're not funny, especially the egg-in-ear gag. The conversation between the school girls is stilted, and the non-linear sections of the story (the "Who are you?" especially) works to make the already iffy story even murkier instead of adding depth. There doesn't seem to be a REASON to it being non-linear, and when one uses that kind of story structure, there has to be a reason behind every twist and turn. Take "Adaptation," (a great, fairly non-linear film) for example. It uses the untraditional structure to underline theme, plot, and characters. In "The Chain," I felt as if it was forced and didn't really reenforce anything but the incoherence of the story's direction. Just my opinion, definitely not a popular one on Slay Alive, but I think Joss's other work on Season Eight totally outshines what he tried to do with The Chain. What I can say, though, is I'm glad Joss is still experimenting with different things. Not everything will work for everyone, but the book worked for some of you guys, so I'm glad for that. Not much I can say except I disagree. The non-linear structure worked for me, the jokes didn't bother me (although the bra-padding thing kinda made me go "Say whaaat? Have you seen SMG?") and the whole thing was very poignant. Oh, and sorry if you thought I was applying the superficial fairy thing to you; I wasn't, that's just literally one of the only complaints I've heard about that issue. Oh, I'm totally the opposite. I love seeing characters suffer and in pain. It's usually when the story is at it's most emotional and affecting. Blood-spattered Willow cradling her dead lover and screaming for answers? Ecstasy. Wow. I don't think I even have the capacity for that within me. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I just don't enjoy pain. I have enough of it to deal with in real life. Seeing people I love (real or imaginary) in pain makes me nauseous, not happy. Especially when I know nothing is going to come along to make it better. That doesn't bode well for the future of my Whedon fandom, and that makes me sad. Because I can just about guarantee Season 8 is going to bring pain like we've never even dreamed of before. Honestly, I can't guarantee I'm going to be able to be around for the end. I've never been so afraid of something I derive so much enjoyment from. There's no bigger idiot than a Whedon fan who likes happy endings. And I am that idiot. Lol, way to make me feel like a crazy person. I've never killed anyone, honest. Though, frankly, how can you not love that scene with Willow holding Tara's body? It's just so emotionally charged. And Willow takes down Osirus!! I genuinely love the characters in the Buffyverse, but I also enjoy seeing them in pain because it makes them more real to me. Seeing them endure such pain and come through it because they're strong, it's what makes me love them. I don't want to watch a show about shiny happy people. Yep, I'm a big fan of Doctor Who. That scene was affecting, but the reason it didn't get me as much as, say, Tara's or Fred's death, is that there's no sentence of finality to it. We all know that if the story calls for it, Donna's memories can be restored. And even if they're not, she still gets to live her life with the potential for happiness. It's similar to the earlier scene in which the Doctor had to leave Rose in her alternate universe, knowing ( so he thought) that he'd never see her again. Undo the Donna thing? Please don't say things like that. It was bad enough they undermined "Doomsday" by bringing Rose back, let's not dilute Donna's story as well. (That said, I did love the final scene on Bad Wolf Bay with Rose and the Clone Doctor. I know a lot of fans hate it but I liked the bittersweet resolution to their story. "Doomsday" was clearly better though.) Donna's story had a great sense of finality to it and retconning it will make me a sad panda. You would have preferred "The Gift" to "Chosen" as a series finale, wouldn't you? If so, I think you're going to love Season 8. I'm not so sure I will. The opposite in fact; "Chosen" is my favourite episode, the "Are you ready to be strong?" speech is my favourite scene in Buffy, and I think it's a much more appropiate ending to the show and it's themes. I mean, I love the "The Gift" (second favourite episode), but "Chosen" was just so much more positive and inspirational. See, I do have a heart!
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Mar 6, 2009 17:59:00 GMT -5
Oh, and sorry if you thought I was applying the superficial fairy thing to you; I wasn't, that's just literally one of the only complaints I've heard about that issue. Oh, no, not at all. I just wanted to show that there are valid complaints about the issue other than what you've seen. Two sides and all that.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 6, 2009 18:00:00 GMT -5
I genuinely love the characters in the Buffyverse, but I also enjoy seeing them in pain because it makes them more real to me. Seeing them endure such pain and come through it because they're strong, it's what makes me love them. I don't want to watch a show about shiny happy people. I know what you mean... I certainly wouldn't use the word "enjoy" to describe my feelings about it. I know that once we get past 5 years old or so, we can no longer feel emotional investment in stories where nothing bad ever happens and everyone is happy all the time. Joss just takes that a little further than most storytellers. I never enjoy seeing my Buffyverse pals in pain. I endure it, because I know that there's (usually) an enjoyable storytelling payoff coming at the other end of it. Undo the Donna thing? Please don't say things like that. It was bad enough they undermined "Doomsday" by bringing Rose back, let's not dilute Donna's story as well. (That said, I did love the final scene on Bad Wolf Bay with Rose and the Clone Doctor. I know a lot of fans hate it but I liked the bittersweet resolution to their story. "Doomsday" was clearly better though.) Donna's story had a great sense of finality to it and retconning it will make me a sad panda. Oh, I don't think they should retcon it. I'm content to see it left just as it is. But the thing is... it means a lot to me to know that it could be undone... that there's hope. To me, a sad but hopeful ending can be just as satisfying as a happy ending. And so I can look back at Angel's death in Becoming, and Buffy's in The Gift, and Spike's in Chosen, and Cordelia's, and Wes's, and even Tara's and Anya's and Jenny's... and know that even though some of those characters haven't come back, they are still there somewhere, waiting to see their friends again someday. (All except Fred, and we've already been over that one. ) I just... don't revel in pain, and Joss does. I shouldn't like his stories, but I do. I don't know why. And uh... yeah, issue #23!
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Post by CowboyGuy on Mar 6, 2009 18:43:27 GMT -5
I disagree with some of the pain in Joss' stories. But for the most part they have become integral to character development and the plot.
While I am sad that Fred is gone, I think her death is a prime example of a great tragedy of the verse. A life and soul lost forever for the greater good. It was dismal, painful and heartbreaking at it's best. The death I most dislike is Anya. To kill off a beloved character just for the sake of showing that deaths are quick and brutal in war is pretty weak. And I didn't "need it", to quote Joss. I know very well that people die in war, and Anya was an amazing character and so well loved. I think she was simply tossed aside like a piece of trash, and that sucks. Take out Robin Wood, Andrew or Kennedy in that way. Not a series regular who has a strong following.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 6, 2009 18:53:09 GMT -5
The death I most dislike is Anya. To kill off a beloved character just for the sake of showing that deaths are quick and brutal in war is pretty weak. And I didn't "need it", to quote Joss. I know very well that people die in war, and Anya was an amazing character and so well loved. I think she was simply tossed aside like a piece of trash, and that sucks. Take out Robin Wood, Andrew or Kennedy in that way. Not a series regular who has a strong following. Amen.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 6, 2009 19:02:16 GMT -5
I genuinely love the characters in the Buffyverse, but I also enjoy seeing them in pain because it makes them more real to me. Seeing them endure such pain and come through it because they're strong, it's what makes me love them. I don't want to watch a show about shiny happy people. I know what you mean... I certainly wouldn't use the word "enjoy" to describe my feelings about it. I know that once we get past 5 years old or so, we can no longer feel emotional investment in stories where nothing bad ever happens and everyone is happy all the time. Joss just takes that a little further than most storytellers. I never enjoy seeing my Buffyverse pals in pain. I endure it, because I know that there's (usually) an enjoyable storytelling payoff coming at the other end of it. Undo the Donna thing? Please don't say things like that. It was bad enough they undermined "Doomsday" by bringing Rose back, let's not dilute Donna's story as well. (That said, I did love the final scene on Bad Wolf Bay with Rose and the Clone Doctor. I know a lot of fans hate it but I liked the bittersweet resolution to their story. "Doomsday" was clearly better though.) Donna's story had a great sense of finality to it and retconning it will make me a sad panda. Oh, I don't think they should retcon it. I'm content to see it left just as it is. But the thing is... it means a lot to me to know that it could be undone... that there's hope. To me, a sad but hopeful ending can be just as satisfying as a happy ending. And so I can look back at Angel's death in Becoming, and Buffy's in The Gift, and Spike's in Chosen, and Cordelia's, and Wes's, and even Tara's and Anya's and Jenny's... and know that even though some of those characters haven't come back, they are still there somewhere, waiting to see their friends again someday. (All except Fred, and we've already been over that one. ) I just... don't revel in pain, and Joss does. I shouldn't like his stories, but I do. I don't know why. And uh... yeah, issue #23! You going through all the character deaths just reminded me... one which made me legitimately sad was Anya. I can handle deaths if I think they do the character justice, but Anya's really upset me because she didn't get any send-off, she was just ruthlessly cut down and barely mentioned afterwards. I was so horrified by that, I literally mourned her... going through denial (telling myself it wasn't canon, thinking up alternate versions), anger (hating Joss for what he did), and finally acceptance. I actually really like her death now (although it still hurts me to watch it happen), I appreciate how shocking and effective it is (it must have been, to get that reaction from me) and respect Joss for having the balls to do that to a beloved main character (didn't he do something similar to Wash in Serenity as well? I've seen it but am not really familar with the series.) So yeah, that's one death which I was genuinely uncomfortable with for a long time. EDIT: I wrote this post before seeing Cowboy Guy and Thorn's above me. Nice to see so many Anya fans. You might be surprised to know I went through similar denial with Fred. For while I wanted Willow to come in and magic her soul into an afterlife because it was such a horrible end for her. But then I began to appreciate her death and now consider it one of the best in the verse, for the same reasons I didn't like it. I'm not sure how I feel about Willow's death in "Time of Your Life"; it was a beautiful scene but we don't really have enough context at the moment for me to really accept it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 6, 2009 20:03:08 GMT -5
I can't have the Fred discussion again. It makes me too angry to think about. In fact, its cruelty and gratuitousness have only come to grate on me more over the years. My continuation in the fandom depends on my not thinking about it too much.
Anya's death bothered me, but... we knew some major character was going down in the finale, and we knew it would be somebody that hurt (i.e., one of the core characters). Knowing that, I'm not sure which of the others I'd have preferred to see go in her place. Joss has to have his blood. And Anya is still out there, having her afterlife and looking back on the good she did.
(I vaguely remember Joss blathering on about telling us "the story we need to hear, not the story we want to hear" or some such... dude, it's Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not a Samuel Beckett play. Get a grip. If I wanted stories to be hard work instead of entertainment, I'd go back to school and start deconstructing Tolstoy again. Dear God...)
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Mar 7, 2009 14:52:06 GMT -5
Great for me, highlight of Predators and Prey so far.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 7, 2009 21:52:09 GMT -5
The death I most dislike is Anya. To kill off a beloved character just for the sake of showing that deaths are quick and brutal in war is pretty weak. And I didn't "need it", to quote Joss. I know very well that people die in war, and Anya was an amazing character and so well loved. I think she was simply tossed aside like a piece of trash, and that sucks. Take out Robin Wood, Andrew or Kennedy in that way. Not a series regular who has a strong following. The point wasn't just that people die in war. That's pretty much a given. The very fact that so many people give a crap that Anya died means that Joss succeeded in showing that in war, people you love die. Killing any of the others you named wouldn't have had quite the same impact. In fact, killing Kennedy off would have made some fans whoop with joy. In order to bring the pain, it had to be someone we cared about. Emma Caulfield wanted out anyway, so Anya was a logical choice. EDIT: Btw, I voted "Good". My rambly thoughts are over at the official #23 thread.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Mar 9, 2009 17:33:57 GMT -5
I'd put this one on the lower end of the "Good" spectrum, edging toward "Average" but not quite there. I love Andrew, and this was a nice issue for him and his character, but certainly didn't come close to approaching what "Storyteller" did for him. And I don't know, but 'nice' as it was, I just wasn't feelin' the Andrew-ness in this one, in spite of all the geek references. There wasn't a single line of dialogue that allowed me to hear Tom Lenk's voice as I read it (I had the same problem with Dracula in WatG and Groo in AtF), whereas in WatG, I could easily hear Tom's voice for just about all of it. Weird, because Drew Z. Greenberg did write some good nerd scenes for the show ("You're English, right? I've seen every episode of Dr. Who"). But I think some characters are just really so defined by the actors who play them that they lose a lot in this format. The other thing about this issue is that I found Simone, in her first extended appearance, to be a very "blah" character. Gigi was much more interesting--wish she'd been the one to stick around, and Simone had gotten killed off...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 9, 2009 18:00:37 GMT -5
Weird, because Drew Z. Greenberg did write some good nerd scenes for the show ("You're English, right? I've seen every episode of Dr. Who"). Except a true nerd would realize that nobody under the age of 50 has seen every episode of Doctor Who... because many of the earlier episodes were wiped and lost forever. The other thing about this issue is that I found Simone, in her first extended appearance, to be a very "blah" character. Gigi was much more interesting--wish she'd been the one to stick around, and Simone had gotten killed off... I still think Simone seemed strangely different from her earlier appearances... very over-the-top and theatrical, as if she was playing a role. (I mean, her HQ is in a theater...) She was really chewing the scenery there. Literally, almost.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Mar 9, 2009 18:11:08 GMT -5
I still think Simone seemed strangely different from her earlier appearances... very over-the-top and theatrical, as if she was playing a role. (I mean, her HQ is in a theater...) She was really chewing the scenery there. Literally, almost. Maybe. Certainly it's an interesting theory. But her previous appearances were so brief that it was really tough to get any sort of read on her character, so that makes it hard to judge if she's acting differently here or not. Plus, she was probably on her best behavior while in Buffy's organization, whereas now she's free to be herself...
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Mar 9, 2009 21:56:51 GMT -5
It's odd, because we're obviously supposed to form emotional bonds with these characters... even ones we've only known for the space of one issue/episode. Yet I find it impossible to enjoy cruelty to characters I've formed such a bond with, any more than I'd enjoy witnessing cruelty toward my real-life friends. This indicates there must be something wrong in the way I approach these stories. And I wish I could resolve that, because it often stands in the way of my truly enjoying Joss's stories, as brilliantly told as they are. Oh, I'm totally the opposite. I love seeing characters suffer and in pain. It's usually when the story is at it's most emotional and affecting. Blood-spattered Willow cradling her dead lover and screaming for answers? Ecstasy. Don't know if you watch Doctor Who, but there was a particularly cruel story in which Donna, a totally ordinary and rather shallow woman, explores the wonders of the universe with her best friend, the Doctor. She evolves into this amazing person. At the end of the season, tradgegy strikes and due to some sci fi mumbo jumbo, she has to have her memories removed. It was a truly sick ending for the character, because instead of dying, she had to go back to her old mundane life with no knowledge of what potential she really has. She was robbed of all those wonderful experiences. I can't do the story justice by explaining it, but rarely has fiction ever affected me so much as that episode and I loved it. Just to clarify that I'm not a complete sociopath, I do enjoy seeing characters happy as well. Which is why I loved #23. How's that for bringing things full circle? Paul, you're my hero. I am just like you. I enjoy seeing our favorite characters suffer. The more drama, the better!!
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