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Post by Brian Lynch on Jun 20, 2008 12:38:42 GMT -5
But you admit the fans would have complained either way, right? So who knows, really.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 20, 2008 12:53:14 GMT -5
But you admit the fans would have complained either way, right? Oh, yeah, they absolutely would have. But would it have been an angry uproar, or some grumpy mumbling and grumbling? I'm going with mumbling and grumbling, and still say that it's better to put up with grumpy fans for an extra month and reward them with a great product at the end of it than to rush and release something that wasn't quite ready, and could've been better with more time to work on it. Maybe an entire extra month wasn't even necessary. Maybe if they'd just been allowed another two weeks, and released #9 a month after #8 instead of trying to go bi-weekly for 3 issues...
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jun 20, 2008 13:03:07 GMT -5
I guess, but the majority of people that read it really liked the issue, so I think it all worked out okay.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jun 20, 2008 14:59:20 GMT -5
yeah i had no prolems with this issue. It felt like an episode of the show which is really the first time I have said that apart from issue 1 and 4. Tose ones were my favourite. I'm happy it came out quicker than usual having to wait a month is crazy. So I like that ATF sometimes comes out earlier. I think everyone needs to remember that they are all still just comics and the art will never be perfect all of the time...although if we got Jo Chen to do the art on the inside and the out side then I'd class that as a perfect comic depending on the writing. I'd love to see a Jo Chen styled cover for After The Fall! I am really excited about issue 10 more so than any of the previous ones just mainly because I loved how issue 9 left off. It was kind of like they won but there is still a lot to be done. Team ANgel are now trying to find their way back to normality. Also hell is freezing over.....I guess either Angel pyed for something or made a GOOD joke. lol
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illyria
Common Vampire
[Mo0:9]
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Post by illyria on Jun 20, 2008 15:26:34 GMT -5
Very intresting issue, loved the refrence to Cordelia hoping for a glimpse of a return lol. Shame we didnt get more interaction from fred she was there for like 4 panels lol but hoping to see more of her as it goes on, really hoping they don't just wipe out Illyria now I really like her on the team. The Art..OUCH what a sore subject its good in parts and very bland in places it has no dynamic element to it which is a shame as it dosnt carry the darkness from francos art a really big shame there. Its also obvoius on a lot of shots that our new artist has copied promotional shots from the show especially with Gwen and Illyria, never mind. So where do you think we'll go from here???
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 20, 2008 15:32:09 GMT -5
Hmm, I want both Illyria and Fred... I hope they keep fighting but no one wins! Then we get both characters!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jun 20, 2008 15:33:45 GMT -5
Its also obvoius on a lot of shots that our new artist has copied promotional shots from the show especially with Gwen and Illyria, never mind. I noticed that, too. One panel with Gwen is the same exact thing as this promotional shot:
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Jun 20, 2008 16:02:57 GMT -5
I thought that for one of his first Angel issues it was pretty good.
I enjoyed this issue, great writing.
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Post by Wyndam on Jun 20, 2008 16:11:00 GMT -5
Oh holy mess how I loved this issue! I'll talk about the art first so that I can spend most of my post gushing about this issue. Was I blown away by the art? No. Did I hate the art? No. Did I like the art? Sure did! It's been said already that Runge wishes he had more time to work on it, and I can only imagine how tough it is to work on your first full issue for a series. I loved his work in Wesley's first night story, so I can definitely see the future potential. A lot of the panels in this book looked pretty darn awesome. It felt strong in the beginning and near the end, and tapered off in the middle a bit.
I thought his likenesses were really fantastic in a lot of the panels, Angel, Spike (except the panel where he kicks in the door), Connor, Illyria, Wes, and Gunn all looked pretty good. I think the comic looked the best throughout the Wesley/Frillyria. Great likenesses and the coloring really popped off the page.
While there were certain ups and downs with the art, I can't wait to see how Runge adapts to this series and progresses in future issues.
Now for the story, by far my favorite issue yet. While I was reading it and was nearing the halfway point I was thinking that I would still prefer issues #5 and #7 to this one, but then the gang got back to the Hyperion and I just fell in love with this issue. Loved how it started, with Angel, Spike, and even Wesley jumping in front of Fred and protecting her from the champions, just a fantastic moment. While I would have preferred more of Fred after that, I understand that the actual battle had to be won before their full attention could be given to her.
Great way to conclude the fight as well. I had no idea how it would be pulled off, but I am glad Wesley and Angel had something up their sleeves the entire time. Also thought it was fantastic how Gunn wanted to be the one to kill Angel (when he thought Angel was screwed), and at the same time was pleased with how the group came back together. His character gets more and more interesting, and I can't wait to see him actually come face to face with Angel and start interacting with him.
The Connor and Angel scenes were also great. BtVS and AtS always had the "talk out our issues while we kick ass" system down perfectly, and this scene was really great to read. Angel knows that Connor remembers everything now, and remembers everything that Angel did for him. Now that that barrier between them is down, I can assume that they will be able to really develop a nice relationship. I've been hoping for some Connor and Gwen action was going to happen since that little scene between them in #5, so it's great to see that finally happen. I hope that Gwen will be able to overcome her "hand off" issues eventually, as she and Connor make for an interesting couple.
Return to the Hyperion (YES!) was fantastic, and something that I have been hoping for a long time now. Spike's comments were hilarious as they made their approach, and even more hilarious was how Angel got him to kick the door in. I was chuckling for a few minutes at that.
I thought the issue would be wrapping up by then, but no, we were treated to a fantastic scene with Wesley and Frillyria. I could feel the emotions in that scene, and by the end I actually got a little emotional myself (I can't help it that I become a complete sap when it comes to Wesley and Fred). Wesley seeking out Cordelia was a huge surprise, and the response he got was so interesting. It seems like the PTB's just cannot get through, can barely do anything at all to aid. The fact that she is "listening" was nice though, as was the panel where Wesley says he realized he needed to stop trying to leave, as that would leave Angel all alone. So much emotion there, Wesley is really having a hard time.
The Fred/Illyria conflict is almost mind numbing to think about. You have Fred trying to fight her way to the surface, Illyria pushing her back down, while at the same time developing some insanely strong feelings for Wesley. That last page really brought the issues they are dealing with to the surface. While it is unclear how much of Fred is actually influencing Illyria, I think it is obvious that Illyria really does care about Wesley, and doesn't even want to think about him leaving again. Such an incredible ending to this issue.
So much juicy stuff at the end that really kicked my anticipation for #10 into overdrive. A comic's never been able to make me feel so emotional before, but then again these types of scenes between Wesley, Fred, and Illyria have always done a good job of doing that in the past, I guess it's no different when it comes to comics.
Big kudos to Brian on the writing, I just loved it.
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jun 20, 2008 19:30:15 GMT -5
But you admit the fans would have complained either way, right? Oh, yeah, they absolutely would have. But would it have been an angry uproar, or some grumpy mumbling and grumbling? I'm going with mumbling and grumbling, and still say that it's better to put up with grumpy fans for an extra month and reward them with a great product at the end of it than to rush and release something that wasn't quite ready, and could've been better with more time to work on it. Maybe an entire extra month wasn't even necessary. Maybe if they'd just been allowed another two weeks, and released #9 a month after #8 instead of trying to go bi-weekly for 3 issues... I have to agree. Since this is the final continuation of Angel with only 16 issues of Angel until THE END, I expect everything to be top notch. So I would definitely wait a month or two for a great issue. I hope they fix that up for the TPB's and HC’s. Will they Brian?
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Post by Emmie on Jun 20, 2008 19:34:10 GMT -5
Duh! *smacks head*
From reading someone else's post discussion on another forum, I finally understood the significance of Angel tricking Spike into kicking the door in for him. He's human and doesn't have the strength.
I keep forgetting the ramifications of Angel's humanity.
*smacks head again* New mantra: Angel's human now, Angel's human now...
One of my favorite ramifications of Angel being human is that he has to rely on his wits more than brawn now. As shown by his Huckleberry Finn manipulation of Spike in this issue.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
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Post by Smashed on Jun 20, 2008 20:19:12 GMT -5
Some things I don't understand: 1) Someone said there was a Cordy reference or something, where exactly was that at? 2) "I don't understand"-Fred "You should. you were there, you know what happened."-Wesley Was Wes saying that it was Fred when he was dying, not Illyria? 3)Why did Wesley take his human form is the 2nd to last page? Was that a flashback or something?
Agh, I'm so tired. Someone please explain this.
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Post by KingofCretins on Jun 20, 2008 21:23:14 GMT -5
Cordy was the agent of the Powers that Wesley tried to contact, the giveaway being that he went to the fashion district to make the attempt. "Fred" didn't understand why Wesley was dead, I figure, but Wesley said "you should", because he's forcing her to reidentify as Illyria -- Illyria was there, therefore Illyria should understand. My understanding of the panel where we see Wesley in his normal wardrobe is that we're getting an Illyria-POV visual demonstration of what happens when Fred "fights back" -- Illyria is seeing herself as Fred and Wes as normal and them in the W&H lobby. Brian Lynch, feel free to call me an idiot if I've missed on any of that On a personal note, I *really* think people aren't embracing comic book art on its own terms in general -- it's been happening ever since Georges Jeanty was hyperscrutinized for 8.01 and every issue on. I know that this is a new medium for a lot of Buffy fans, but exactly, precise likenesses of actors who are no longer playing these roles is simply an unreasonable standard to hold comic artists to. Joss said in an interview early on that his instructions were to "draw the characters, not the actors", and I think every lead penciler thus far on both books has done that. I wouldn't even bother if it wasn't a little tiring to see, every issue of each book, a good chunk of the discussion turn into "complaints about the art".
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Post by Emmie on Jun 20, 2008 21:55:24 GMT -5
My complaints on the art for this issue more have to do with certain distortions of proportionality. Like Wes' corpse looking like his bottom half is larger than the top, plus moved to the right a few inches. And another panel with Gunn's head being out of proportion. I feel like the fact that Runge and the art team were a bit rushed to finish this issue shows.
Who are the people that complained about Franco? I'd just really like to know what these complaints were. Anyone? I really had no negative complaints regarding his art. Just accepted it and enjoyed.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 20, 2008 22:31:28 GMT -5
Who are the people that complained about Franco? I'd just really like to know what these complaints were. Anyone? I really had no negative complaints regarding his art. Just accepted it and enjoyed. I was one. I think we've already had a discussion as to why, and I don't think this would be the right place to voice those opinions again, other than to say that I've since decided that it was probably an issue with the coloring more than simply his style that bugged me. However... Franco's art kinda grew on me, and I pretty much did what you did after the initial "yech" factor: "Just accepted it and enjoyed". I was more invested in the story than the art anyway. Hey, you asked.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 20, 2008 23:08:29 GMT -5
On a personal note, I *really* think people aren't embracing comic book art on its own terms in general -- it's been happening ever since Georges Jeanty was hyperscrutinized for 8.01 and every issue on. I know that this is a new medium for a lot of Buffy fans, but exactly, precise likenesses of actors who are no longer playing these roles is simply an unreasonable standard to hold comic artists to. Joss said in an interview early on that his instructions were to "draw the characters, not the actors", and I think every lead penciler thus far on both books has done that. I wouldn't even bother if it wasn't a little tiring to see, every issue of each book, a good chunk of the discussion turn into "complaints about the art". I admit to being one of those who bashed Jeanty after 8.01. Like I said, I hadn't read comics for years before S8 started, and I guess I was expecting something much more photo-realistic. Especially after the previews of Jo Chen's covers (I think we got the images of the first four even before the first issue had hit the stands). It was too cartoon-ish for me at first. But I've grown to love it, so much so that I've gone back and collected nearly all Jeanty's variant covers now (still need #3 and #8), because my eyes have been opened and I've realized how great his work actually is. So I don't need the likenesses in the comics to be dead-on perfect. That's not my main gripe with this issue. It's the things Emmie mentioned--distortions of proportions. It's the lack of detail in the backgrounds. It's the overall coloring, where the important things in the foreground have a fair amount of color, but then everything in the background is just one or two shades. I'll say it again: it really has the feel of something that was rushed to meet a deadline, where the artists weren't given the opportunity to do their best work and show what they're capable of. Brian said that the majority of people really liked this issue, and I agree--partly. I think nearly everyone loves the story, and the writing. I love it myself, now that I've read it a couple of more times. But I've browsed a few different message boards since yesterday (here, the IDW ones, and one or two others), and for every person that likes the art, there are four or five people who don't, ranging from mild "Meh, I didn't think it was too great", to "I hated it with a fiery passion". Nearly every one of those people who disliked it qualified that by saying that they believed Brian when he promises how good the art in #10 is, and are looking forward to that, but the general consensus on this issue alone seems to be that people didn't really like it much. Which brings me back to my question of, why couldn't the release date have been pushed back another two or three weeks to give the artists the time they needed to do a great job? The fans might not have been happy during that time, but they would've been happy with the final result. Anyway, enough complaining about it, because it's done, and no amount of whining is gonna change it. I don't want it to sound like I'm trying to argue about it, because I'm not. After getting over my initial dislike of it, I've mostly just moved on to feeling bad about the tight deadline that caused it. I should point out that there was a lot in this issue that I did like, too. The return of the Hyperion was great! I'd really been hoping that might happen at some point. Angel's method of using the Hagan/un Shafts to defeat the lords was very cool, his conversation with Connor was one of the best scenes they've ever had together (in the show or the comics), and the Uncle Spike stuff was downright hilarious. And of course, the Wes/Frillyria scene at the end was just top-notch. Bloody fabulous, even. I'm looking forward to seeing where the story goes in the next issue, and to seeing what Runge and Lyon can do when they're not working under such time constraints...
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Post by jacenskylo on Jun 20, 2008 23:22:48 GMT -5
Could someone explain the whole Hagen staff aspect because it keeps going over my head. Thank you
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Post by KingofCretins on Jun 21, 2008 10:36:07 GMT -5
Hagan shaft thing -- the device is basically a suicide tool for immortals to go out in style. Angel found them at W&H, and his plan was to flip the Loan Shark, put out disinformation that they are *weapons* against immortals (like vampires, which they thought Angel was), so that the demon lords would want them to use on Angel if need be. Instead, when the demon lords used them, it blows them up.
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artiswar
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Post by artiswar on Jun 21, 2008 15:14:54 GMT -5
So I just got this issue and went through it, way overdue.
And I don't know how you guys felt about it but the art right off the bat was so terrible that I couldn't even bring myself to pay enough attention to the panels to fully figure out what was happening. I literally skimmed through it the first time because I was so upset with the quality. Oh god, Fred looks like a freaking man for the first few panels, and half the time I cant even tell which character is which, while the other half of the panels left me utterly shocked at how bizzare and ugly most of the character portrayals were. I'm freaking shocked. Please tell me that this artist isn't going to be working on issue 10. Ugh. I'm going to go throw up now.
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Post by hunter233 on Jun 21, 2008 23:18:06 GMT -5
Silly me. For some reason I had interpreted those shafts as suicide devices from the start. I thought when Loan Shark (Oh wait, he has a name now! Bro'os! ... I'm not gonna remember that, so he'll always be Loan Shark in my heart.) was distributing them, the idea was that none of the immortal Lords would suffer the indignity of defeat by Angel's hand, so they'd kill themselves first. I'll have to go back and reread that one now, heh. Was very happy to see Angel had that up his sleeve though. I do kinda wonder why he didn't try to use it earlier, but oh well. I LOVED the reason Loan Shark was the one to help out. Though why'd he'd accept that "reward" of property when he was Lord of all Santa Monica was kinda confusing. I'm gonna have to assume it's cause the other Lords weren't taking him seriously. For one, he's a humanoid shark for christ's sake, as compared to their assorted badassery. Secondly, he was Lord of the area Connor's safehouse was in, and that's gotta be a HUGE embarrassment for any Lord.
I'm still holding out hope that Gunn's there at the Hyperion. Maybe that's how they discover he's still around. I'm really hoping they find him there next issue.
My one big question, that's bugged me something fierce, is this: Where are they keeping Wesley's body?? The lack of background made it impossible to figure out. It can't be at Wolfram & Hart, cause it woulda been blown to smithereens. It can't be the Hyperion, cause they said Wes and Fred were wandering the city. So where'd Angel take it to??
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