patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 21, 2009 19:14:57 GMT -5
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,786
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Post by Joe on Jan 21, 2009 19:21:12 GMT -5
Pat, I loooooved your review. I think that's my favorite you've wrote.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jan 21, 2009 19:35:33 GMT -5
So it finally happened, the first comic to ever make me shed a tear. This was just absolutely perfect in every single way. It's hard to put into words exactly what I felt while reading it. I had one little nitpick with the last few issues of After the Fall, and that was the pace of the storytelling. For me, it was just moving a little too quickly, but this issue took care of that for me, everything came full circle.
I couldn't be happier with Wesley's exit. I thought there was no way it could top Not Fade Away, which it didn't, they are both equally amazing. When Wesley was walking towards Illyria, that's when the teary-ness started. The goodbye between him and Angel perfectly sums up everything they went through in just a couple words. His last line is heartbreaking, but it fills you with joy and hope. Great exit for the greatest developed character in probably television history.
The rewind easily ranks as one of the greatest Buffyverse moments. That was epic beyond belief. So many amazing moments throughout After the Fall finally come together. I'm glad everyone in LA remembers what happened, it should be interesting to see what comes out of it now that Angel is a legend. And a big YAY that Gwen, Groo, Cordy The Dragon and Connor are no longer dead. Gunn better pull through.
Loved the panel of Angel riding The Dragon over a non-hell Los Angeles, great contrast to the first issue and everything Angel went through. And after five years, Angel finally removed the thorn from his paw (that was lame). I absolutely love that a Doublemeat Palace is being built where Wolfram & Hart first stood, such a slap in the face.
Thank you very much Brian for writing the greatest comic issue ever!
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jan 21, 2009 20:18:38 GMT -5
Thank you! I think it's easily my favorite ATF issue, I'm glad you guys like it.
My biggest regret is that we didn't get a two page spread of "normal" LA to counter the two page spread from the first issue. But Dragon hanging outside of the hospital (he's in the parking lot, you'll notice) makes up for it.
Big ups to the lettering this issue, they knocked it outta the park. The Cedars Sinai logo, the fading away of Angel's captioning as he gets flaming sworded, it looked wonderful.
And speaking of that flaming sword, how swell did THAT look? The colors are so pretty.
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 21, 2009 20:27:32 GMT -5
My biggest regret is that we didn't get a two page spread of "normal" LA to counter the two page spread from the first issue. But Dragon hanging outside of the hospital (he's in the parking lot, you'll notice) makes up for it. I loved that, also really liked how Angel reminisced about his heart beat. Really nice moment. Yeah the page where Gunn killed Angel, WOW. The flame effect looked great.
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Post by michellebuffyfest on Jan 21, 2009 20:37:23 GMT -5
I just read the issue and I have some mixed emotions about it. On one hand, I'm glad that Connor's alive and that Angel wasn't put through such a painful experience. The scene ith Angel hugging him was really emotional. I also love that a Double Meat Palace is being built where WR&H used to be. I laughed out loud. I also liked the link between this and Buffy #21. I'm making the assumption that this is how vamps become common knowledge. Right?
I will admit that I'm a little let down that all they/we went through for 16 issues has been taken back. I get that everyone has their memories and will feel the pain, especially Gunn if he lives, (I hope he does because there's some great scenes to be written where Angel can help him through his guilt), but there was something so daring when Connor was killed. I felt like they took a huge leap and although I didn't want it to happen, it was so great. This kinda reminded me of "I Will Remember You" just lasting a little bit longer.
I need to think on this for a little bit. I also want to wait for #17 to come out to see if that helps with my conflicting emotions about this one.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jan 21, 2009 20:57:02 GMT -5
Wow... he is a live Yay! and Groo and Illyria! would have been nice to see Cordy again tho and I like Gunn and all but I want him to die, or become a vampire again :vampirebite: ... But this is better than I could have ever wanted! Do we still get the cover with 'good' vs 'evil' on it ?
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
~ Listening To Fear ~[Mo0:25]
Posts: 2,958
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jan 21, 2009 21:21:18 GMT -5
In the grand scheme of things, is Gunn really evil? Like Illyria said "His methods were insane. His reasoning wasn't." He meant good, at least I believe he did. Yes he killed and whatnot, but he was going to restore time to reverse "The Fall". First, bearing the responsibility of Fred's death and now all this? He might as well commit suicide to rid himself of the pain.
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trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
Bad day. Started bad, stayed that way.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 188
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Jan 21, 2009 21:57:09 GMT -5
Nah, don't think perfect happiness. With his best friend dead and his other close friend in the hospital, the happiness couldn't have been perfect. Huge, swelling (this sounds dirty), and tear jerking, yeah... but couldn't be perfect. ..... Thanks Pat. You realize you just gave rise to an explosion of Connor/Angel slashers....don't you? Yes, it is YOUR fault.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Jan 21, 2009 23:18:47 GMT -5
In the grand scheme of things, is Gunn really evil? Like Illyria said "His methods were insane. His reasoning wasn't." He meant good, at least I believe he did. Yes he killed and whatnot, but he was going to restore time to reverse "The Fall". First, bearing the responsibility of Fred's death and now all this? He might as well commit suicide to rid himself of the pain. Is Gunn evil? Not now. Was Gunn evil? Absolutely. He meant good in one instance, and that was to return LA to its natural state. But even his reasoning there was selfish. But remember, Gunn was equally excited about his OTHER plan. To murder Angel. Motivated by Angel leaving him in the alley, granted, but still evil. Evil to the point where he'd murder Angel's son right in front of him. Why? Because he didn't want to wait to fight Angel. He wanted it right then and there. Also, vampire.
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 21, 2009 23:37:55 GMT -5
Gunn's situation really is brimming with possibilities. He has all the memories of what vamp Gunn did, he feels the same things that vamp Gunn did (desire to kill Angel, evil, etc.). Will he still harbor some of these feelings if/when he recovers? It will be interesting to see how he and Angel react with one another. Angel will understand that the Gunn he saved, didn't kill Connor. That Gunn is gone. But on the other hand, Gunn IS that Gunn, only human now. It kind of gets a little complex. I love it!
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Neil
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 187
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Post by Neil on Jan 22, 2009 3:03:06 GMT -5
Am I the only one who feels a little "blast from the past"?
I don´t really see the reason why the actual events had to be "undone". I know, they have an effect on the characters, but they aren´t the actual reality. What was the dramatic purpose of that?
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Post by magicegidius on Jan 22, 2009 4:18:01 GMT -5
Brilliant... absolutely brilliant... I'd like the altered reality and Angel being a hero...
Cordy was right: the only thing Angel had to do, was die.
After the angelic intermission, the Messiah came...
And Wesley...I really don't like him leaving because he was my favourite character. But losing him this way... I think Groo was right eventually: his death, eating by a monster, with a flaming sword and riding a flying horse, was really less significant and beautifull...
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jan 22, 2009 7:02:33 GMT -5
So, was that really Higher power Cordy then? she would also remember all this right? and in #1 "it all started with a girl" he was talking about her right? Now we only have Brian left for on more issue! I know:( but I now think of Brian like Jesus of 'Joss Whedonverse' who is God himself!
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 22, 2009 10:17:53 GMT -5
Pat, your review got mentioned on Chris Ryall's blog. So cool! Congrats.
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Post by angeliclestat on Jan 22, 2009 10:45:53 GMT -5
Fantastic issue - I felt like I was reading it forever. And in no way is that a criticism:)
I kinda guessed what the plan would be from the preview ( I can understand why they didnt want that revealed), but not the way it would be done. Reset? What freaking reset? It is *EXACTLY* in line with previous continuity. Hell dimensions run at different time scales to what happens on earth. They were sent to a pocket hell dimension. Time runs differently there. So going back to the time of the fight in the alley makes perfect sense, and actually follows what I said in the beginning. So those claiming reset. Na-uh guys. It ain't. If it was a reset nobody would remember anything, nothing that happened in Hell-A would have counted.But they do. *Everything* has changed now.
Brian describes the issue as 'world-changing'. Well it's definately 'city-changing' anyway. The city of Gotham knows Batman protects them,the citizens of Metropolis know Superman watches over them, and New York knows Spiderman will come to their aid - now Los Angeles knows it has its own protector. Angel the superhero:) *That* isn't huge? And feckin awesome! How different from the lonely vampire stalking in the shadows of Season 1.
Poor poor Wesley. He will be missed.
I love how Gunn still wanted Angel to kill him. He knew what he had done. He knew what he had become and what he did. He aint gonna be well next issue!
Yay Illyria. How changed is she? I cant wait to see what will happen with her next.
And YAY! Connor. So happy and relieved that Angel has him back! It doesnt undermine the emotion of last issue (for me anyway).
In a funny way I will miss Hell-A. It was a fantastic arc, and fantastic setting. but it is kinda relieving to be back in Los Angeles. Seeing the city again with that amazing shot of the dragon flying over it (and yes Brian would have been great to get a 2 page spread of that!) really feels like home for this gang.
So what's the deal with the Wolfram and Hart building?Things are going to get very interesting methinks!!
PS - we can now time the series can't we. It's still May 2004 in the comic:)
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Jan 22, 2009 10:50:53 GMT -5
Since Angel is the protector of LA, basically it's superhero, I wonder what that will mean for Gunn? Could Gunn become a twisted arch villian for Angel? I could see this happening. Twisted by his loss of humanity we could see him start by trying to recover but slowly and ultimately falling into the darkness. Gunn could be the new Faith. Time will tell...
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Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
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Post by Enisy on Jan 22, 2009 12:24:12 GMT -5
Wow. Okay. Now that I've actually read the issue, instead of relying on summarized spoilers, I have to eat my criticisms. I liked it best out of all the Angel: After the Fall issues, and possibly even better than Issue 4 of Spike: After the Fall. Real sorry about that textual eyeroll over at Whedonesque, Brian!
King and Pat are absolutely right that it brought about too many changes for it to be dismissed as a "reset" -- not least the disclosure of the supernatural element to the public. And even the problems I would have had with the character deaths are ameliorated by this exchange: "No. Leave me be. Please, let me die." -- "Sorry, Charles. It's not that easy." Reminds me of what D'Hoffryn said in Selfless: Never go for the kill when you can go for the pain. (One has to hope, though, that that's actually followed up in Angel: Aftermath.)
'Course, in this 'verse, you get joy and happy-teary right alongside the pain: Angel/Connor reunion. Most moving scene in the issue, and even moreso after Angel's acknowledgment of Connor as his "true love". Wouldn't this have made a great ending to the issue, if not the series? "In fact, it's kind of a happy ending, isn't it?" -- "I'm not sure... I've never had one before." Sniffle.
Now, I have to admit that Wesley's presence in After the Fall after his incredible death scene often felt like unjustified fanservice, and that, other than the few and far between Wesley/Illyria bits, he's competing with Spike for the least satisfying arc out of all the characters, but: his closing line here was perfection. "Yes. But so was she." There's never been any question in my mind that Fred had to be his "ever after", even though I'm going to miss Wesley/Illyria something terrible in the future continuations.
Other things I liked, writing-wise... the funny you managed to squeeze into so grave an issue. ("Illyria. Have you lost weight? See, because -" -- "Because I was a massive creature. I understand. It was a marginally successful attempt at humor." -- "Thank you?" Nyahaha!) The alley fight; much more exciting and atmospheric than the glimpse we got in First Night. The Doublemeat Palace! LOVE EET. I think I would like Buffy: Season 8 so much more if it ignored its pride just long enough to slip in an Angel reference or two, the way Angel: After the Fall and Spike: After the Fall have been doing all along.
The only things I'm unsure about are Westerberg's inclusion, which seemed more than a bit self-indulgent, and the lack of payoff for the Spider decapitation panel. What was the point of her character again?
On another note, the colouring was one of the first things that rubbed me the right way about this issue. It's positively breathtaking and by far the best in the series so far; no other issue even comes close. Vibrant yellows and reds and blues is what Hell should have looked like all along, not the washed-out browns we've had to tolerate for the past issues.
And art-wise, Urru outdid himself. His best work. I didn't like the double use of Wesley walking to Illyria's body, but he knocked all the rest out of the park, from the triumphant and eerie power-shot of "I'll live" to the adrenaline of "-- she won't have to" to the extremely emotional Angel/Connor hug.
10/10
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Jan 22, 2009 12:48:24 GMT -5
Got it today. It was a good issue, but I'll just be honest and say I was disappointed by where the story went. Yes obviously they had to get out of Hell-A, and yes the character are changed by what they went though... but to just have a big Star Trek: Voyager style reset button quality to it I was simply wasn't happy with. The deaths of Gwen, Groo, Connor etc were all such awesome moments; yet now when I read the issues back they'll be meaningless. The only person who's dead is Wesley, and he was dead to begin with anyway!
Maybe I'll appreciate it more if I reread it, but it just seems like a waste of time now looking back. Buffy Season 8 had been incredibly "meh" in my opinion over its run, but there was always Angel: ATF kicking ass. Now this, and with how dull Aftermath sounds*, hmm, I'm losing interest in these comics frankly
btw, Aftermath could be amazing, I'm just saying from the slim info we've got on it I'm hardly super excited about it. Plus the covers are somewhat less than impressive
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