patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Feb 26, 2009 1:29:38 GMT -5
Wow, an exploding phallus? I imagine that'll be quite a spectacle to behold on stage. You'll have to let me know when it is so I can marvel at your, from the sounds of it, slightly disturbing genius. I'll definitely make a Bronze thread of it. I feel bad for board cloggage. It's late and I'm talky. So Angel #18. Coloring was interesting. Very different than anything we've seen so far, more... I don't want to say pastel, but almost with the smooth purples and whatnot.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 26, 2009 1:41:45 GMT -5
Ethan, your namesake is definitely a douche in it, and he does die via an exploding phallus, but he also gets some great lines. You'd be proud. And offended. But mostly proud. But yes, the coloring was pretty interesting. A lot different than the colorists of After the Fall. I liked the feel it gave, the skies looked great.
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 26, 2009 7:45:33 GMT -5
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 26, 2009 7:51:01 GMT -5
I have to giggle a little bit at the reactions. I seem to recall a lot of nerves about Lynch and his capacity to write the characters; and Urru's art received a lot of backlash for his representation of characters too. Honestly, switch the names and a number of these posts could be copies from a year or so ago.
Not a great position for a new writer to be honest, following a story that wrapped up nicely and left many characters in unusual places. For me personally, I love the idea of Angel going back to roots somewhat, but I'm not sure I need to see it. I haven't read it, and not sure I will. I'll see how I feel when the collected edition rolls around.
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iloveromy
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 26, 2009 8:48:10 GMT -5
Ethan, your namesake is definitely a douche in it, and he does die via an exploding phallus, but he also gets some great lines. You'd be proud. And offended. But mostly proud. But yes, the coloring was pretty interesting. A lot different than the colorists of After the Fall. I liked the feel it gave, the skies looked great. I liked the coloring. I liked the drawing, save for the likenesses of the main characters. Other than that...
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 26, 2009 13:11:50 GMT -5
So I've read the issue and I'm kind of surprised by the negativity, at least from a fanbase that is so positive about After the Fall. I wonder if the missing characters like Spike, Illyria, etc is having something to do with the lack of enthuasiam. My opinion is that is was pretty average, but not a huge jump in quality from most issues of AtF. The artwork is kind of dull but competent, it does the job. Standard house art really. Storywise, I'm glad they're addressing the "Angel is famous" thread and reiterating that the status quo is very different; one of my concerns was that the "back to basics" approach would result in a rehash of season one, but it's pretty fresh. The montage of scenes with Angel and Kate's failed screening process was pretty funny, especially the moment where a scared Angel is chased Austin Powers-style down the street. I can't help but like having a church as the AI base; I know it's a little on the nose but feels appropiate nonetheless. My least favourite part of the issue is Angel himself. I don't like his smug "I've redeemed my past" line; I know it's been dutifully fanwanked to be taken in a certain context, but I still think it was ill-advised. "Come to terms my past" might have been better, as he still has a lot to atone for. Another moment I didn't like was when he turned his back on the girl; yes, I know he's had a tough time with prank calls and set-ups but isn't there a chance she could really need help? Is it worth risking? Even when a crazy guy attacked her, Angel continued being cynical and didn't even help Kate in the fight, just walked away. Didn't like his attitude there at all. Then there was agreeing to the council people's help. You'd think he'd have learned not to accept tempting offers from mysterious people in suits, no matter how sugar-coated they are. They could have been W&H employees sent in from another dimension or something to screw him over again. And if not, they could have another agenda. But Angel barely questions them, just leaves Kate to talk to them. He doesn't really care. Why should he? He's redeemed his past, don't you know. I'm being harsh, but there was too many OOC moments to convince me that Armstrong has a comfortable hold on the character. It wouldn't matter if I thought it was deliberate (like Buffy's hardened attitude in S8) but there isn't much evidence of that. Connor's role is welcome, and the cute domestic scene between him and Angel in the kitchen was my favourite of the book. They had a comfortable chemistry together that was fun to see. I'm not entirely sure what his role in the series will be, given his initial reluctance to join "another team" and desire to live a normal life, but it has potential. Kate... hmm. Tricky. A couple of years ago, if you'd told me Kate was going to be a permanent AI member I would have screamed. But her appearance in First Night fully-redeemed her in my eyes and I suppose I'm happy to see her again. I like how committed she is to the good fight, and how she organizes Angel in his mission. Quite similar to Cordelia in that respect, and with her gone, there are shoes to fill. Again, potential. A few people have complained about Kate's appearance, and they're not wrong, but I don't really care about actor likenesses so I'm not that bothered by it. So overall, I'd say that this is fairly promising but not outstanding. It depends where they take it. The current status quo is strong enough, but the characterisation needs to improve for it to work. While I like Kate and Connor on the roster, they didn't do that much this issue, and Angel was downright unlikable. I didn't care enough about the panther or the crappy ending to really comment. I'm still not sure where I stand on the ever-controversial canon debate; I might consider this "C-canon", which means that the basic events are canon, but the exact details aren't. Kind of like Go Ask Malice or the Year One comics.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 26, 2009 13:23:23 GMT -5
I might consider this "C-canon", which means that the basic events are canon, but the exact details aren't. Kind of like Go Ask Malice or the Year One comics. Hm. I've never considered those canon in any respect. Not bad, just not canon.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 26, 2009 13:47:14 GMT -5
Okay I was able to rush over to the comic book store seconds before it closed yesterday to grab all four covers of this and sat in my car and read it:
Pros:
1) I really like that Angel feels like he is getting back to basics like in Season 1, where it was as simple as getting a client and fighting the bad guy, BUT with the added twist of Angel being famous now. I think that this is going to have some serious reprecusions for Angel and Co. in the future.
2) I like that Angel and Connor really seem to be much closer to eachother now, much like Angel wanted from Connor to begin with. However, I think it would be very nice to see what exactly Connors relationship is with his "fake" family.
3) Im very glad that they at least gave us a glimpse of Gunn/Lorne/Illyria/Spike just to let us know that they may not be a large part of this arc, but they are out there. From the looks of it, Spike is kind of down so I'm guessing this could possibly lead up to him catching up with Buffy again...
4) I loved the sequence with Angel and Kate talking about the screening process while battling demons. I found it to be very uplifting. As well as the HYSTERICAL sequence with Angel getting chased down the street.
Cons:
1) I think that Angels line about having atoned for his past needs to be clarified, because he was clearly dealing with guilt about sending L.A. to hell in ATF and between now and then he didnt do much to redeem himself. That line contradicted not just ATF and Orpheus, but the whole series itself.
2) I am not a fan of the character likenesses...Kate looks absolutely nothing like the way she did in the series (tight lips, high arched brow, stern look) and the fact that she went from being Linda Hamilton-esque in First Night to being Slayer-like now...I dont like it. Not to mention the fact that Angel looks nothing like David Boreanaz.
In the middle:
1) Im not too sure how I feel about the artwork. I like the fact that its much easier and clearer to read, but I feel that there isnt much detail to the landscape and that the colors are very basic.
2) I love the fact that Kate is more a part of the team now, even thought I wasnt that big of a fan of her character to begin with, but I am optimistic that she will hopefully progress as a character and I will like her in the future. However, her character seemed kinda flat in this issue, very emotionless.
3) The Church. I like the idea of being in the Church as a new base but isnt that going to be kind of hard consider Angel's a vampire and there would be crosses everywhere? I dont understand why they still couldnt use the Hyperion, which I thought was perfect as it had a tie to Angels past. However, I do like the imagery of it and its intresting to think how 'Angel hates Churches but Angelus loves them."
Overall: B-
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 26, 2009 14:09:26 GMT -5
I might consider this "C-canon", which means that the basic events are canon, but the exact details aren't. Kind of like Go Ask Malice or the Year One comics. Hm. I've never considered those canon in any respect. Not bad, just not canon. Well, we know the events of them are canon. We know from the show some details about Faith's abusive childhood, her Watchers' death, and that she battled Kakistos. Those events are portrayed in GAM, so to an extent, the events of that novel are canon. Similarly, we know Buffy went to Vegas, spent time in an asylum, and her parents divorced, so Year One just fleshed out what we already know. What I'm saying is, I do think that in the canonical Buffyverse, Angel is out there running AI with Kate and Connor, I'm just not sure whether to take the specific details of Aftermath as canon. It's not the best analogy, don't listen to me. I see it as loosely canon, put it that way.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 26, 2009 14:30:19 GMT -5
Well, we know the events of them are canon. We know from the show some details about Faith's abusive childhood, her Watchers' death, and that she battled Kakistos. Those events are portrayed in GAM, so to an extent, the events of that novel are canon. Similarly, we know Buffy went to Vegas, spent time in an asylum, and her parents divorced, so Year One just fleshed out what we already know. What I'm saying is, I do think that in the canonical Buffyverse, Angel is out there running AI with Kate and Connor, I'm just not sure whether to take the specific details of Aftermath as canon. It's not the best analogy, don't listen to me. Those other things were expanding on info and details that had been mentioned already in canon, though. Nothing that *originated* in those sources can be considered canon. As far as we've been told, though, Joss had absolutely nothing to do with the plot of "Aftermath" and can't expected to be bound by it as backstory when he writes these characters in the future. I have a hard time believing JW would put the Canon stamp on anything he didn't have creative control over... at least not sight-unseen.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Feb 26, 2009 15:01:52 GMT -5
Well, we know the events of them are canon. We know from the show some details about Faith's abusive childhood, her Watchers' death, and that she battled Kakistos. Those events are portrayed in GAM, so to an extent, the events of that novel are canon. Similarly, we know Buffy went to Vegas, spent time in an asylum, and her parents divorced, so Year One just fleshed out what we already know. What I'm saying is, I do think that in the canonical Buffyverse, Angel is out there running AI with Kate and Connor, I'm just not sure whether to take the specific details of Aftermath as canon. It's not the best analogy, don't listen to me. Those other things were expanding on info and details that had been mentioned already in canon, though. Nothing that *originated* in those sources can be considered canon. As far as we've been told, though, Joss had absolutely nothing to do with the plot of "Aftermath" and can't expected to be bound by it as backstory when he writes these characters in the future. I have a hard time believing JW would put the Canon stamp on anything he didn't have creative control over... at least not sight-unseen. Yes, you're right that's why I corrected myself and said it was a bad analogy. I just meant it's easy to look at those stories as "semi-canon". I don't think Aftermath has "the canon stamp" in the sense that it's equal to AtF or S8, etc. But I think it can be taken as "C-canon", which is Star Wars jargon for a lower level of canon. (For the record, I'm not a SW fan, I'm just interested in the way they organise their continuity - they have five levels of canon depending on media/people involved, etc.)
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Whedon Fan
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 26, 2009 20:23:59 GMT -5
Hmmm Interesting start to a promising continuation to After The Fall. I think they should have called this Angel: Aftermath issue 1 though, it felt like the series premiere of a new season, sort of like Angel season 7. Right on the first page I had doubts about the issue. Mainly with Angel calling the demons "assisins". They are not assisins. Demons, creatures, old ones, monsters, half breeds...not assisins, they are not Ninjas. I read comics, mainlyWhedon related series and the odd comic book that interests me, mainly X-Men. So even though I am not the biggest comic fan, I knew from the first read that a lot of what Angel was saying in this issue should have been in those though boxes. Small mistake but I found it distracting. The other things with Angel and the demons, he wants one to send a message and then says "his corpse is the message"....really 'corpse'. Doesn't sound like Angel to me. I did like the part when the demon is rubbing it in Angels face about him supposedly being on the bad guys side some point in the future, quickly followed by Angel kicking the demon and saying "don't remind me". Now that is Angel, I liked that part! Who's house was Angel and Connor in? I liked that their relationship has moved on but shcking up in what seemed like a nice little family home is a bit much for the Angelverse. I know Connor said he wants to move out and get a job and stuff but still.... Illyria in a car is an image I never wanted to see, she is not that normal. "Now put your seatbelt on Illyria" By reading interviews with Brian Lynch I know that that panel was all a set up for the Gunn issues that are coming out soon. Same goes for Spike. Now for Kate...where do I start, did Kate have a twin sister who looked nothing like her and like to kill demons and had weird hair and a baby face like...well a baby. I re-wrote that entire scene in my head and it works much better. I'll post it on another thread though seen as my rambling needs to get wrapped up here. Who are those weird teleporting people? W&H employees, the Partners in disguise or the Powers That Be? I do not believen for a second that Angel would turn his back on anyone. Annoyed at his famous situation or not the woman was clearly being attacked by a demon or human it shoudn't matter, definatley a big out of charatcer moment for Angel. Though I do like the idea of certain people beign infected by the "reset" spell. I'm taking it as a sort of 28 days later thing. Another plus for this issue is the were cat creature I really do like this new charatcer, very interesting idea and I'm curious to see where this goes but ending the issue with Angel being attacked with a stake....pfft like he's going to be killed, never ever so why bother ending the issue that way. There could and should have been a better ending to leave readers wanting more. I know this is KA's first time wriitng for these characters but did she at least do her homework on them. Brian Lynch was a fan before writing ATF and even he had specific episodes playing in the back ground whilst he was writing to get a feel for the charatcers voices. Maybe KA should do the same. Why did IDW want a writer with no previous experience or knowledge of this verse to write Aftermath. I hope she does a great job and warms up soon-ish. I know this is the first issue so I am going to stay a faithful reader but as of now this issue has only confirmed what everyone else has been thinking.... Over all I give it 5.5/10
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 26, 2009 20:33:15 GMT -5
I read comics, mainlyWhedon related series and the odd comic book that interests me, mainly X-Men. So even though I am not the biggest comic fan, I knew from the first read that a lot of what Angel was saying in this issue should have been in those though boxes. Small mistake but I found it distracting. I kind of liked the way that was done... having Angel do most of his explication through speech rather than the traditional wall of narration boxes. It was a departure from the usual, it was kind of amusing to see Angel spouting this stuff to his bewildered demon victims, and it created the sense that he is preoccupied and distracted while on his rounds.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 26, 2009 20:44:07 GMT -5
Right on the first page I had doubts about the issue. Mainly with Angel calling the demons "assisins". They are not assisins. Demons, creatures, old ones, monsters, half breeds...not assisins, they are not Ninjas. They were assassins. Every demon that Angel fought in that opening montage were assassins sent by the Lord's he killed in After the Fall, not just random demons. I read comics, mainlyWhedon related series and the odd comic book that interests me, mainly X-Men. So even though I am not the biggest comic fan, I knew from the first read that a lot of what Angel was saying in this issue should have been in those though boxes. Small mistake but I found it distracting. I kind of liked the way that was done... having Angel do most of his explication through speech rather than the traditional wall of narration boxes. It was a departure from the usual, it was kind of amusing to see Angel spouting this stuff to his bewildered demon victims, and it created the sense that he is preoccupied and distracted while on his rounds. I agree. It wasn't the first time Angel has gone on a little tirade while beating the crap out of his enemies either, I quite liked it too.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by iloveromy on Feb 26, 2009 21:59:58 GMT -5
I'm waiting for Emmy's review
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Nicholas
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One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Feb 26, 2009 23:02:56 GMT -5
In my own opinion, I view Aftermath as canon until we are told otherwise. We know that Brian's stories which are canon are taking place AFTER Aftermath so why not consider it canon. All we were told was that Joss knew the basic outcome of the story but was letting her do the rest which means that Joss has put an overall CANON approval on Aftermath but just basically gave her the end and let her work to it.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 26, 2009 23:05:57 GMT -5
We know that Brian's stories which are canon are taking place AFTER Aftermath so why not consider it canon. Why are Brian's stories canon? Just because they're written by Lynch?
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bitsy
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Post by bitsy on Feb 26, 2009 23:20:20 GMT -5
We know that Brian's stories which are canon are taking place AFTER Aftermath so why not consider it canon. Why are Brian's stories canon? Just because they're written by Lynch? I assume they are canon because the original proposal for ATF was coauthored by Lynch and Joss.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 26, 2009 23:23:02 GMT -5
Why are Brian's stories canon? Just because they're written by Lynch? I assume they are canon because the original proposal for ATF was coauthored by Lynch and Joss. I'm talking about the stories Nicholas referenced post Aftermath.
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bitsy
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Post by bitsy on Feb 26, 2009 23:29:10 GMT -5
I assume they are canon because the original proposal for ATF was coauthored by Lynch and Joss. I'm talking about the stories Nicholas referenced post Aftermath. The complicated reality is that Joss is less and less involved in the comics both Buffy and Angel now that Dollhouse is taking up most of his time. When we spoke to Brian he did say that Joss was aware of the Spike comic amongst all the other things he's going to be writing but, other than that, Joss isn't involved much. Basically Brian says "Hey, Joss, I want to do this comic where the following things will happen" and Joss will say "Sounds good". Is that canon? I think you'll find that the longer a show is off the air the more complex that question becomes. As a long time fan of Doctor Who I remember the long standing period of time from 1989 all the way until 2005 where all the fans had to go on were, books, comics, and audio dramas. Ask any Who fan what is canon and what isn't and you'll get a different answer every time. Buffy and Angel are fast becoming the same way.
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