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Post by Wyndam on Feb 26, 2009 23:32:12 GMT -5
Can we leave the canon argument for the proper thread? We don't need every thread in this board to get bogged down in an argument that is just about pointless at this point. Especially since the argument has nothing to do with the actual content of issue #18.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 26, 2009 23:34:02 GMT -5
I concur, Wyn. It's sort of taking over the discussion of the actual issue.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 26, 2009 23:34:54 GMT -5
But Aftermath is not part of AtF. Joss had no part in plotting or writing it, or even choosing the author. I don't know what the situation is with Brian's After-Aftermath issues.
I've heard that the Aftermath outline was sent to Joss's office for approval, but as I understand it that's done with everything that comes out under the Buffy or Angel licenses, even for stuff that is clearly non-canon. It may even be a contractual requirement... don't know about that.
As I said, I am quite sure that Joss is not going to see as binding on his characters a story that was written with no input or creative control on his part.
My rule of thumb: if Joss didn't Executive Produce it, then it's not canon unless he specifically says it is, or directly references it (or allows it to be referenced) in a canonical source. If he says Aftermath is canon then it is; and if Angel shows up in Buffy season 8 talking about his recent adventures with Kate and Dez, then it's canon.
I feel like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons talking like this, but in a storyverse as complex and far-reaching as this one, knowing what's "reality" and what isn't is very important.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 26, 2009 23:35:46 GMT -5
Didn't mean to stir the pot, was just responding to the topic being raised in this thread. *shrugs*
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Post by bitsy on Feb 26, 2009 23:37:41 GMT -5
Didn't mean to stir the pot, was just responding to the topic being raised in this thread. *shrugs* Same here. My answer, as always, is that there is no right answer. Canon is in the eye of the beholder. That's all.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 26, 2009 23:48:22 GMT -5
Anyways, getting back to the issue.
I reread it today and something that I liked that Dave did was that he changed up Angel's outfits a lot. Since we are not dealing with a story like After the Fall where we saw just about everything Angel did from issue #1-17, and now have a story set up more similar to the TV series, where time passes and we don't see everything in the between. So we see Angel in quite a few outfits in this issue, which I did really think about until I reread the issue (for the third time lol), and then what that means for his character in terms of where his head at is during one scene, and then where it is in the next. It is kind of nice to be back to this type of format.
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Post by bitsy on Feb 27, 2009 0:05:14 GMT -5
I keep thinking about those two mystical characters who are employing Angel and co. They look kind of familiar and, thinking of season one, I realized from where.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 27, 2009 0:14:51 GMT -5
Great catch bitsy! I think it was King on Whedonesque that said he thought the two suits that visited Angel and Kate may be the warrior angels we see on a few of the Aftermath covers in disguise, and as I was reading the issue, I was wondering if they were going to be involved with the Powers that Be story line that seems to be heading our way, and this definitely lends more evidence to that. The two suits in #18 definitely look like The Oracles. I am pretty sure the female Oracle appeared to Angel even after Vocah killed her, so maybe this is some sort of similar situation? They may still be dead (did we see them touch anything in the issue?), but since they are out in the "real world," I guess they have disguised their appearance, since they definitely didn't look normal in that limbo type location Angel used to talk to them in. This is all assuming they are The Oracles, of course. We'll see though. Definitely something interesting to chew on.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 27, 2009 0:19:30 GMT -5
That is pretty cool! They both seem suspicious and possibly evil, but maybe that's Armstrong just messing with us, and their true good intentions will be revealed later on. This issue focused a lot on Angel going back to the beginning, and the Oracles fit in with that very well.
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 27, 2009 1:53:29 GMT -5
I love the Oracles.. I hope they are back.
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 28, 2009 17:29:57 GMT -5
I'd be all for them being the oracles, whether they are the orignial ones from season 1 or new ones. They are called the Oracles after all as in more than one. I know that there was 2 but maybe there could have been 3,4,5 there could be tons.
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Post by dragonweaver on Feb 28, 2009 19:17:20 GMT -5
I'm a little late to the discussion, but I finally read issue #18 today and I really wanted to share my opinions.
I didn't really have high expectations considering that this new arc would be headed up by a new writer & artist. With that said I still was slightly disappointed.
I liked the set up for the new story and I thought Armstrong did an okay job displaying the new problem that Angel faces. I also like that Connor has a place in the story and I'm actually looking forward to seeing where his character goes from here.
Furthermore I think Kate & Gwen are great additions to the story. I know Gwen was in After the Fall, but I really think there is more to explore with her character and her relationship with Connor. Just for the record I don't think Gwen was begging to get Connor's attention. There's a difference between begging and seeking forgiveness. She obviously had real feelings for him and I'd be shock if she just walked away without trying to work things out. As for Kate, well I really liked her on Angel and her appearance in "First Night" made me interested to see more of what's become of her since getting booted off the force.
With that, here's what bothered me:
1. Angel = Atlas. He carries the weight of the world on his shoulders because he knows he can never atone for all the years of bloodshed he caused. He shouldn't be walking around thinking he has paid his dues. Hopefully that is something that is fixed. I might be willing to buy that Angel is currently delusional and all the praise and flashing light bulbs have convinced him that he is all paid up. 2. I'm glad Kate is back, now if only the character in the comic looked, talked and acted like Kate. No point beating this in since many others have already stated this. 3. The pacing feels off. For example the introduction of the "city council members" felt rushed and I would have personally been happier if we simply meet them in this issue but didn't find out want they wanted until the next issue. It just felt like too much information was squeezed in.
I'm still willing to cut some slack given the circumstances and I also will continue to read the issues. Hopefully with more time Aftermath will improve.
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Post by Malsad on Feb 28, 2009 20:44:16 GMT -5
hopefull indeed
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Post by buffyfan21 on Feb 28, 2009 21:58:11 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this issue. Poor Angel, he just wants to be left alone. Our brooding hero needs his space. I find it very amusing. Angel and celebrity are unmixy things. I think it's great that Kate is back in the fold and that she and Angel are working together. Could we see a romance between these two in time? Who knows (we know Angel has always loved his blonds). I was very confused about the panther/human thingy? but hopefully that will be explained soon.
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Post by sire on Mar 1, 2009 3:06:59 GMT -5
Wasn't very impressed. :/ Question, will you need to read 'Aftermath' to understand to upcoming Gunn and Drusilla oneshots??
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Post by Whedon Fan on Mar 1, 2009 9:23:47 GMT -5
No the Gunn arc take place before Aftermath but after 'After The Fall' and Dru's takes place during After The Fall.
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Post by Nina on Mar 1, 2009 11:07:09 GMT -5
After all the negative reviews I was really afraid, but it was not that bad. It's clearly a first issue and it being Kelley's first time and all. But I was expecting something much worse after what others said.
I understand that the 'redeemed' line could fall wrong and feel a bit out of place. I think that another way of putting it would be better, but there is enough space to read it as something else.
I'm not liking the art that much, Connor looks 50% of the time like a girl and Kate is not even wearing Kate clothes or looking like Kate. But I love how Dave gives Angel different kind of clothes, I was so tired of him wearing a blouse in ATF. So he gets credit for that, and also for the buildings and monsters. I liked the coloring as well, it was less harsh as ATF but it fits the night of a normal city.
I like the choice for a church, it has the gothic feeling and I can understand why Angel doesn't want to return to the Hyperion with rooms for Fred, Connor and Lorne. Where Wesley's office is and Cordelia's desk. It must be awful to live there without any of them. And the symbolic part of course, an angel who lives in the church.
Loved the failed screening process and what it did to Angel. It's shocking that he just refused to help the girl, that in combination with him not knowing who he is and what he wants, could lead to an interesting arc.
Kate feels very rarely as Kate, but in the 4 seasons we didn't see her, a lot could've happened with her. So I can live with it when we see some Kate things in the future.
Gwen really tries to get Connor back, that's a good thing I think. I don't see it as OOC, she has no connection with anybody. So it would make sense that she would try to get him back. Less sense makes the Gunn and Illyria team up in the car, I'm curious what happened to him and why he teams up with Illyria. And yay for Lorne getting his own bar again, doing what he does best and where he works the best as a character.
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Post by patxshand on Mar 1, 2009 11:57:23 GMT -5
No the Gunn arc take place before Aftermath but after 'After The Fall' and Dru's takes place during After The Fall. Yes, you will need to read "Aftermath" to understand what follows. The Drusilla arc isn't set entirely during "After the Fall." And there will be stuff later that you won't understand if you don't read Aftermath.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Mar 1, 2009 13:24:02 GMT -5
I hope everyone reads AFTERMATH, but to appreciate the Gunn issue you only really need to have read ATF. And Dru is kinda self-contained. Heck, I wrote the Gunn issue and co-wrote the Drusilla issues, and I've only read one issue of AFTERMATH, and an outline for the next couple of issues.
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Post by sagewoman on Mar 1, 2009 14:40:18 GMT -5
I like the direction the new issue is taking. The art is the only thing that is causing me a problem- the faces that is. Hopefully they will improve over time.
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