Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 5, 2009 13:19:57 GMT -5
I posted this on the Buffyforums, and I thought that maybe here some people wanted to 'borrow' my fanwank for the 'redemption' line.
That Angel feels like he is redeemed because that's how his religion works, especially when they go the way that Angel is not sure about his redemption and all, that this is where the idea of his redemption comes from?
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barryshaft
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Post by barryshaft on Mar 5, 2009 13:31:03 GMT -5
No, I don't buy it at all. Not only would that not make much sense, but essentially your saying that Angel himself compares himself to Jesus. If he were religious that'd be like the ultimate sin. But I don't really think Angel considers himself to be religious. His whole thing has been that redemption is an unending path, he'll never make up for the things he's done and he's just going to keep doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing. I think people are reading way too much into this. It was Armstrong's first issue, she doesn't really get the characters, it was just a one off line.
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 5, 2009 13:46:54 GMT -5
I called it a fanwank and not a theory because I know that it wasn't done on purpose and that it is just a bad line with poorly chosen words.
And I disagree about Angel not being religious, it's not he goes to church every sunday. But he is by far the most religious character on either show. Symbolic (from all the chracters, he is the one who's most often paired with religious symbols) but also as a character, his personality seems to be very influenced by Catholicism. It's the way he raised and nothing suggests that he left that part of himself behind. At least not completely. Also I don't think that he have to compare himself to Jesus to link it to redemption. A sacrifice like that is combined with redemption, I doubt that you need a Jesus-complex for that.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 5, 2009 13:53:40 GMT -5
I posted this on the Buffyforums, and I thought that maybe here some people wanted to 'borrow' my fanwank for the 'redemption' line. That Angel feels like he is redeemed because that's how his religion works, especially when they go the way that Angel is not sure about his redemption and all, that this is where the idea of his redemption comes from? It's good fanwank, Nina. My problem is that AtS told the story of redemption being something you fought for always. When redemption was treated as a prize to be attained, it became a joke (the cup in Destiny). AtS and NFA were about the metaphor of the fight going on forever. And Joss has described redemption as something that you never fully achieve, but get infinitely closer to as you continue to fight for it. Kinda like the concept of limits in calculus. And with every day you're given options to do good or bad, but you have to make that choice. This is still true for Angel - he has to continue to make that choice to do good. If there ever would be a time when he would realize redemption fully, I think redemption on this scale for Angel will only be realized when he's truly dead (not just dies when he knows that he'll likely be brought back to life by W&H) and goes on to the afterlife. When he finds himself in that place where Buffy was, in what she thought was heaven, then Angel will find that true forgiveness and final state of redemption. Did Buffy dying in The Gift mean she was fully redeemed from whatever past mistakes she'd made in her life? (granted they are no where on the same scale as Angel) Or when she was brought back to life in Bargaining, did life only make it possible for her to fall once more? This is the key difference to me. Life goes on and each new possibility brings new opportunities for both good and bad. As long as life keeps going, it will always be the journey towards redemption or condemnation. It's about the journey, not the destination. And the journey will always be a struggle to walk that fine line between doing good and evil for Angel because the potential literally lives within him as a vampire cursed with a soul.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 5, 2009 14:12:13 GMT -5
Nina, I do like part of what you posted. And to me, when Angel says that, its just him covering for what he really feels. Kelly has already commented on peoples reaction to that line so it would be be a good idea for everyone to head over to Whedonesque and read the interview with her.
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barryshaft
Novice Witch
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Post by barryshaft on Mar 5, 2009 15:52:09 GMT -5
I called it a fanwank and not a theory because I know that it wasn't done on purpose and that it is just a bad line with poorly chosen words. And I disagree about Angel not being religious, it's not he goes to church every sunday. But he is by far the most religious character on either show. Symbolic (from all the chracters, he is the one who's most often paired with religious symbols) but also as a character, his personality seems to be very influenced by Catholicism. It's the way he raised and nothing suggests that he left that part of himself behind. At least not completely. Also I don't think that he have to compare himself to Jesus to link it to redemption. A sacrifice like that is combined with redemption, I doubt that you need a Jesus-complex for that. See I don't really see where Angel is the most religious character on the show? I'm not disagreeing that there's been religious implications in the character's story, but personally he doesn't seem to hold much to Catholicism. Yes, he believes in a god or higher power in the same way that Buffy and Spike do. They know there's other dimensions that resemble heaven and hell but they don't necessarily hold true to that of Catholic dogma. Angel's religious attitude, if it could be said he had any, is much more devoted to Eastern philosophies. Much of his life has been dedicated to karmic realignment rather than a devotion to a higher being. Once he got past the idea of karmic realignment, he believed that it was his duty to do good because it was the right thing to do not because he was compelled by god. Were he a practicing Catholic, Angel would believe that he would be forgiven for his many sins simply because he was repentant for them, which is clearly not the case. As with Angelus' targeting of catholic figures (nuns, convents, churches), I'd say that was more about the character mocking the religion than it was out of fearing it. Angel has sacrificed himself willingly many times before, added to that he was fairly certain that his death in this case wouldn't be the end because of the Senior Partner's intent. I highly doubt that this event has shattered his belief in a life-long redemption.
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 5, 2009 16:43:35 GMT -5
I get what you all say and I agree with the most of it (hence me fanwanking the line), and I agree that the fanwank isn't perfect. But it's the best I've so far. But I don't agree that Angel has little to do with his catholic believe, for me there is some very extreme catholic behaving/thinking from Angel's side. The Angel-Jesus parallel followed by him being confused about redemption just asked for this fanwank. Kelley said that there is a big chance that Angel doesn't believe his own words, and I would like to know how he gets that idea when he doesn't believe in it himself. Why would he go there? And this is the closest thing I have to an explanation.
I also don't think that redemption is something you'll get (never saw the Shanshu as a reward either) nor do I want Angel to change his believes. But I do think that it's time that Angel will stop feeling bad for being an evil soulless vampire and start looking at himself as a person (looking at his personal flaws instead of Angelus' crimes.) He can't grow as a person if he keeps on dwelling in guilt for things he couldn't help doing. For me there is a big difference between feeling bad for what happened, and hate yourself for doing evil when you were a soulless vampire (who can't do anything but being selfish, evil and twisted). And secretly I hope that this is what Kelley meant.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 5, 2009 17:11:27 GMT -5
I get what you all say and I agree with the most of it (hence me fanwanking the line), and I agree that the fanwank isn't perfect. But it's the best I've so far. But I don't agree that Angel has little to do with his catholic believe, for me there is some very extreme catholic behaving/thinking from Angel's side. The Angel-Jesus parallel followed by him being confused about redemption just asked for this fanwank. Kelley said that there is a big chance that Angel doesn't believe his own words, and I would like to know how he gets that idea when he doesn't believe in it himself. Why would he go there? And this is the closest thing I have to an explanation. I also don't think that redemption is something you'll get (never saw the Shanshu as a reward either) not do I want Angel to change his believes. But I do think that it's time that Angel will stop feeling bad for being an evil soulless vampire and start looking at himself as a person (looking at his personal flaws instead of Angelus' crimes.) He can't grow as a person if he keeps on dwelling in guilt for things he couldn't help doing. For me there is a big difference between feeling bad for what happened, and hate yourself for doing evil when you were a soulless vampire (who can't do anything but being selfish, evil and twisted). And secretly I hope that this is what Kelley meant. *Karma* Great post here. I think there might be something going on with Kelley's story here, something more behind the "I've been redeemed" line. At least, that's what I'm hoping. I agree, I don't think Angel should be mired in guilt. You can't be proactive in this mindset. But I also think he can't be fully divorced from his past and the responsibility of his past actions should be taken into account. He has to accept that he's done bad things and is always working towards redemption, always on the brink of perhaps doing more bad things if he doesn't carefully toe that line (be it from losing his soul again or from being caught up in a negative/selfish outlook like in Season 2 or 5).
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 5, 2009 17:42:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the Karma. I also hope that there is more, it would redeem the line. (Well when there is a good story behind it) The more I think about it, the more I think that it's there with a reason. Kelley is so careful with not making big mistakes that this would be a weird line (I mean this is totally different from not being able to get Kate's voice on paper, this is big.). And the whole Angel feels disconnected and him walking away from a girl in trouble. That's not just there ... I hope. I'm always curious why Angel is always walking that fine line, what is it that Angel has trouble keeping his demon inside while we never saw Spike having trouble with it. Is it a creative choice made by the writers to distinct the two? Is it W&H? The curse? Or Angel being unstable (maybe even a disorder)? Him being the one who always has to fix everything? His self-hate and lack of self esteem? And is it part of the demon inside or is it the person Angel? It's probably a combination, but it would be nice to dig deeper into this.
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Post by VampSlayer on Mar 5, 2009 18:07:28 GMT -5
Oh, I meant four out of ten, Pat. xD I modified my post. ^^
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 5, 2009 20:56:53 GMT -5
Two minority opinions I hold re: Angel...
1. Angel is not morally responsible for the crimes Angelus committed,
and
2. "Redemption" is a pointless, counter-productive and frankly selfish concept, especially in the Jossverse.
I'd be overjoyed if Angel agreed with me on those two points, but if he does... I'm gonna need to see how he got to that point, and I'm gonna need to hear it from Mr. Whedon himself if such a significant character development is being applied to such a significant character.
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Post by seldomnaughty on Mar 5, 2009 22:02:04 GMT -5
I was actualy surprise with this. I like the direction they're going in. I was kind of scared how someone else would do since I'm now used to Lynch. But my main gripe is the art....it was just bad...and all of a sudden Kate is now some super sexy BIG BOOBED SLIM spunky blonde? NO. that is not Kate Lockley. They might has well have made this character Nina instead. The little glimpse we got of Kate in First Night was really good. This is just..an odd pairing for the sake of bringing back someone "old school" i guess
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Mar 7, 2009 19:14:58 GMT -5
Wow, I'm really far behind these days. I didn't buy this issue yet. I guess I'll post what I'm expecting to see. Will I like it? Of course I will, its Angel for crying out loud. The art might be a little weird but its a new chapter in Angel's life and change is good... sometimes. I have Faith in Kelley. As for the story plot, it might be a little slow at first but I'm sure things will get going. I'm nervous on seeing Kate again. She's a totally different person. Could be good, could be bad. I'll find out soon enough.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 8, 2009 4:39:09 GMT -5
I had a look at it again in another Comic shop, I think next time I will just read it all there...lol(I would buy it but not for $7 when I also get the TPB's)
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
~ Listening To Fear ~[Mo0:25]
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Mar 8, 2009 15:34:10 GMT -5
(I would buy it but not for $7 when I also get the TPB's) $7.00? Get out! For real? That sucks. I would protest.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 8, 2009 16:17:09 GMT -5
(I would buy it but not for $7 when I also get the TPB's) $7.00? Get out! For real? That sucks. I would protest. Yep that’s the awful exchange rate for ya..
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bishopcruz
Common Vampire
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Post by bishopcruz on Mar 9, 2009 15:03:15 GMT -5
This issue was pretty damn crappy. I had decent hopes, but it just felt like a glorified fanfic, and just wasn't very fun. It felt like most of the early IDW Angel books that quite simply sucked, (though there were a few that were good.).
My biggest issue was Kate. This is NOT Kate, and I sure as hell don't know what show Kelly Armstrong was watching, but if this is her interpretation of Kate, then it wasn't Angel. It is fun to see characters that we haven't seen in a while return, but Kate felt NOTHING like she did in the show or in "First Night". That and the art on her was AWFUL. I mean Nina got a little bit oversexualized, in AtF, but she at least felt like Nina, and there was an excuse for her odd behavior.
Kate on the other hand should not be running around bare-midriff with stakes tied around her leg like a bad superheroine. Kate was always a fairly marture, interesting character, and she loses so very much in this one issue, that I don't even feel like it's her at all. This is a first time in a while that a writer of one of the comics (Buffy or Angel) has gotten the overall feel and voice of a character so horribly wrong. I mean this is worse than even some of the worst Dark Horse stuff. I'm amazed that it hasn't gotten more discussion.
It wasn't all bad, the Angel/Connor stuff was interesting, and um, in concept the idea of doing cases and stuff seems cool, but this does not really feel like Angel to me, at least not yet. Here's hoping Kate becomes more Kate like, and Kelly finds her Angel voice, because if not it's going to be a hellish few months until Lynch returns.
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illyria
Common Vampire
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Post by illyria on Mar 10, 2009 6:14:03 GMT -5
Very Intresting Issue, I thought it was nice to get back to the start but im still missing wesley lol. I also thought Kate was a tad out of character but there could be reasons for that for what shes been doing since we last saw her so just keep watching lol. Shame we didnt get more from Illyria i didnt expect her to be in a car with Gunn thought we might of seen her at Angel Investigations. But overall A good start intresting turning point. My Biggest Complaint though is ANGELS TATTOO!!!! WHERE IS IT!
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illyria
Common Vampire
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Post by illyria on Mar 10, 2009 6:14:52 GMT -5
The tattoo was missing in after the fall aswell, i feel the artists arent looking too much into the character with that
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 10, 2009 14:42:28 GMT -5
I think that for continuing something like Angel into an official canon continuity, then I believe that they should be more faithful to the character, and his tattoo was something that we saw since the episode "Angel" of Buffy.
I also agree with Angel coming to terms with the fact that he is not responsible for the actions that Angelus commited, but he still somehow feels guilty for it. I think that may have been what Kelly was trying to express and its something hopefully we can read more into when the next issue comes around.
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