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Post by Emmie on Mar 26, 2009 0:30:29 GMT -5
This is what we're getting. Kelley Armstrong told us that he approved it, and that it's considered canon. The story is going to be on-going and it's going to count. That's really all I need. I think a lot of people are making it clear that if this is "what we're getting", we'd like to send it back. Or make that reset real and just leave it at the end of NFA or AtF #17. I'd much rather that Blood N Trenches were let into canon from Joss reading it after the fact and saying 'yeah that's good stuff'. This ambiguous approval regarding Joss and canon really isn't enough for me. Because the standard of the Joss touch includes art. After the Fall had quite a few hiccups but pulled out shinier than ever towards the end, but Aftermath simply is bad. I kinda find it funny that there are a number of fans out there who say they don't care about the art. The art is a huge part of the story and when it's badly affecting the tone, it's hurting the book. A lot.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Mar 26, 2009 0:40:45 GMT -5
I think a lot of people are making it clear that if this is "what we're getting", we'd like to send it back. That definitely does seem to be what most are thinking. I don't think we can call "Aftermath" as a whole bad at the moment, because we are still two issues in, but it's not looking good from here. Though I'm more than willing to accept a bad arc if we're going to keep getting more good material down the line. With what Brian has coming up, and promises of more stuff down the line, I'm thinking less about sending stuff back and more about asking them to bring 'em on. Blood and Trenches is so so good. #2 comes out next week, I believe. Yeah, I totally get the ambiguous approval not being enough. It's why I've been gung-ho about the whole "two interpretations" thing. It just kinda ruffles the feathers when the "we think it's canon" side is completely shut down by a "no, you're wrong." Not that you were doing that. You weren't. I just think that, in this instance, it can go both ways. Angel is my favorite book, and I haven't lost faith in it yet, so I'm more than willing to go with the "Kelley meant Joss himself" interpretation. No, yeah, that is weird. Bad art tends to jump out. Lyon's browness, Jeanty's original Faith and the first time he drew Toru, Runge's final pages in #11, and the likenesses in "Aftermath" jump out, to me. Not sure how bad art couldn't be startling. Maybe it comes with the comic territory, and it is admittedly less important to me than story... but I very much agree that art truly matters.
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Post by underworld on Mar 26, 2009 4:33:25 GMT -5
I know ATF set the bar quite high, but it's sad that with Aftermath the standard has fallen so far so quick. It'd be nice to get some input from IDW to see if any of this feedback is being taken on board, or is that just cruel? I always got the feeling from Brian that with ATF the things the fans said were at least noted. The cannon argument is really down to the individual. I got into reading comics again because ATF & season 8 were cannon, and I loved the original series so much. But at the end of the day if the comic is worth reading then I'll buy it. If it's rubbish, it'll get left on the shelf.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 26, 2009 8:33:31 GMT -5
The cannon argument is really down to the individual. That's the problem. Canon isn't supposed to be down to the individual, because it's meaningless if it is. By definition, canon must be a commonly shared label, not an individual one. It's fiction's version of what's reality and what isn't. The sole argument for Aftermath's canonicity is that Joss or his office "approved" it. But he has to approve everything that comes out with the Buffy or Angel brand on it, regardless of canonicity. This, coupled with the fact of Joss's total non-involvement, and the fact that he'd never allow such an important character to be officially developed without his input, makes up the argument against Aftermath's canonicity. I've stopped caring so much about it. But if I'm discussing Angel with anyone and they try to cite the events of Aftermath as any kind of evidence as to his character, attitudes, goals, development, decisions, or emotional states, I'm just going to say "Sorry, that's not canon. Didn't really happen." It bears repeating that quality and canonicity have nothing to do with each other. In the Buffyverse I've seen non-canon stuff that's better than some canon stuff. It's not true that "not good = not canon." It is true that "not Joss = not canon." (That is, written by or directly supervised by him.)
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 26, 2009 10:32:00 GMT -5
The way I see it is, IDW have the license and are going to publish Angel comics regardless of canonicity. Before, they were publishing ancillary series like The Curse and Old Friends, which were fairly directionless and pointless. IDW were biding time for Joss to come and tell his "season six" story. With that out of the way and Joss unlikely to return to the series, IDW went back to publishing ancillary comics, only now they could take the series forward instead of waiting for Joss. To me, the only real difference between Aftermath and any other non-canon comic is that it has a stronger creative direction. People should look at AtF as a one-off canonical mini-series, Joss Whedon telling some of the stories he never got to tell. Everything else from IDW, before and after, is just non-canon expanded universe. And there's nothing wrong with that, non-canon stuff can be great fun (hello... Blood and Trenches). But it's not part of the official story IMO. That's why I can't hate Aftermath with the same passion as everyone else, because it ultimately doesn't matter. As for the "this is all we're going to get" people, tell me... if Season Eight had never been released, would you view Queen of the Slayers as canon? Because it and Aftermath are in kind of the same boat that way, IMO. The quality of Aftermath is definitely lacking, we're (mostly) agreed on that. But the thing to remember is, it's just one arc in an ongoing series. The equivalent of a single bad episode. Brian is coming back for three issues, and then who knows who'll take over after that. IDW have proven with the Spike books and Blood and Trenches that they're capable of delivering good non-canon comics. Cheer up! That's the problem. Canon isn't supposed to be down to the individual, because it's meaningless if it is. By definition, canon must be a commonly shared label, not an individual one. It's fiction's version of what's reality and what isn't. This is true, but all fiction is ultimately subjective and people can interpret it how they choose. As Brian Lynch has said, the Star Wars prequel movies are canon but some people simply choose to ignore them. There should be a set official canon but people don't have to follow it. The sole argument for Aftermath's canonicity is that Joss or his office "approved" it. But he has to approve everything that comes out with the Buffy or Angel brand on it, regardless of canonicity. This, coupled with the fact of Joss's total non-involvement, and the fact that he'd never allow such an important character to be officially developed without his input, makes up the argument against Aftermath's canonicity. I've stopped caring so much about it. But if I'm discussing Angel with anyone and they try to cite the events of Aftermath as any kind of evidence as to his character, attitudes, goals, development, decisions, or emotional states, I'm just going to say "Sorry, that's not canon. Didn't really happen." Agreed. It bears repeating that quality and canonicity have nothing to do with each other. In the Buffyverse I've seen non-canon stuff that's better than some canon stuff. It's not true that "not good = not canon." It is true that "not Joss = not canon." (That is, written by or directly supervised by him.) This is also true, but I do view canon as a kind of quality control. If everyone could come in and write canon stories, the quality of the Buffyverse would be severely diluted, since the majority of expanded universe stuff is quite frankly inferior to the writing in the shows/canon comics. Even though those stories still exist, the concept of canon prevents them from actually "counting". Does that make sense? Canon still doesn't equal quality though, as "She" and Spike: Asylum (so I hear, still can't find it!) prove.
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Post by dragonweaver on Mar 26, 2009 13:03:56 GMT -5
I literally just read this issue yesterday. I've been putting it off because frankly I didn't care. I found I had no investment in what happened next, other than my love for the Angel series.
At this point I'm probably repeating what many others have said, but I didn't really enjoy the issue. I actually disliked this even more than the last issue.
Does anybody even know what the main story is? I can't tell if the main focus is Dez the werecat, the assassins that are after Angel, or the weird hospital with disappearing patients. Perhaps there isn't a main thread going through the series, perhaps Aftermath is just a bunch of random things tied together with no main focus, or worse I'm just too slow to figure it out. Gosh I hope it isn't the last one.
Just to end on a semi-positive note: I felt sorry for Gwen. She was just trying to help and Connor was extremely rude. Also I found Dez to be an interesting character. The end.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Mar 26, 2009 22:58:37 GMT -5
I as well feel that constantly bringing back Cordy is tarnishing her character. I understand in Joss's world that characters are never given the final goodbye, but really, is it too much to ask that you just leave the girl out of this?
My theory is that its all just a ruse to get Angel to do whatever, and its not really her.
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Post by wenxina on Mar 26, 2009 23:11:35 GMT -5
I as well feel that constantly bringing back Cordy is tarnishing her character. I understand in Joss's world that characters are never given the final goodbye, but really, is it too much to ask that you just leave the girl out of this? My theory is that its all just a ruse to get Angel to do whatever, and its not really her. Regardless, the point is Cordy (whether it's really her or not) is constantly being used as a plot device to spur Angel into action. Why the man can't seem to get anything right by himself, I have no idea. From the size of that forehead, you'd imagine the braincase is considerable. But maybe size isn't what truly matters. That's NOT what she said. *sigh*
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Post by Emmie on Mar 26, 2009 23:34:17 GMT -5
I as well feel that constantly bringing back Cordy is tarnishing her character. I understand in Joss's world that characters are never given the final goodbye, but really, is it too much to ask that you just leave the girl out of this? My theory is that its all just a ruse to get Angel to do whatever, and its not really her. Regardless, the point is Cordy (whether it's really her or not) is constantly being used as a plot device to spur Angel into action. Why the man can't seem to get anything right by himself, I have no idea. From the size of that forehead, you'd imagine the braincase is considerable. But maybe size isn't what truly matters. That's NOT what she said. *sigh* I think my problem here is that Cordy is being kept in this annoying limbo state. People get brought back in the Buffyverse all the time. But the key is to actually bring them back. Resurrect them fully because the cryptic messages are just annoying and unsatisfying and most importantly, Cordy's character is unable to grow like she deserves if she's only there to pat Angel on the shoulder and send him messages on what to do next. That's not having Cordy back, that's using Cordy as a cheap plot device. It's wrong. Let Cordy rest in peace. Lynch got his one visit from Cordy and it worked because Angel literally was dying so I viewed it as his spirit talking to Cordy in an in-between realm. But after that, enough already. Further, since she's up there working in some capacity for the PTB, that means her story here on Earth is done. It'd be like Angel and Buffy leaving each other phone messages during Season 5/2. Angel left over Sunnydale over a year ago. Cordy died over a year ago. Either move on or change the story so it justifies Cordy's inclusion.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 27, 2009 1:13:33 GMT -5
I think of Cordy like Leo from 'Charmed' and the reapers from 'Dead like me' lol with working for TPTB and not having to go to heaven (not like it's a bad thing, but she still has work here).... I also think they need to change the story so it justifies Cordy's inclusion in the comics because the way 'Aftermath' is going... I hope they just don't F around with her... but maybe she is what 'Aftermath' need to just that little bit better.... ??
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 27, 2009 1:17:25 GMT -5
Just got the issue today Need I say more? I'm still confused by the story and I feel tempted to go ahead and write my own version. The art isn't that great and I'm kinda just repeating what everyone's already said That's something I wanted to say. I love Cordelia. She's one of my favourite characters and it was a shame to see her go. And I would love to see her return...well resurrected anyway. I was so happy when she returned in ATF, but that said, I'm not so sure about Aftermath. It's like they're using Cordy as a cheap plot device, like Emmie said Let's hope so, Thorn. Fingers crossed
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Mar 27, 2009 14:50:36 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. HAHAHAHA...oh my...HAHAHAHAHA . I just looked at the preview pages because everyone complains about the art and um...HAHAHAHAHA!!! ANGEL LOOKS LIKE A MINI-HULK!!!!!!! WHAT THE F***?! *deep breath* I'm so glad I didn't read these.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 27, 2009 16:47:30 GMT -5
Wait, wait, wait. HAHAHAHA...oh my...HAHAHAHAHA . I just looked at the preview pages because everyone complains about the art and um...HAHAHAHAHA!!! ANGEL LOOKS LIKE A MINI-HULK!!!!!!! WHAT THE F***?! *deep breath* I'm so glad I didn't read these. Yes... very sad. But the storyline is / might be getting better.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 27, 2009 18:26:26 GMT -5
What storyline? What I want to know is what's up with Connor's attitude towards Gwen. He's acting like a twat. Sure, she betrayed him, but who in the Buffyverse hasn't been betrayed? WTF is wrong with him. I kinda feel sorry for Gwen with the way she was mistreated And who the hell is that angel at the end?
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 27, 2009 18:42:26 GMT -5
Um... you know... the storyline with the Angel and ummm.... that's it really lol. Connor being betrayed by Holtz, Angel, Evil Cordelia, Jasmine and now Gwen it's just to much for him... so I think he should move on from Gwen.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 27, 2009 18:50:16 GMT -5
Okay, fair enough that he should move on from Gwen, but there's no reason to act the way that he is towards her. She did die for him
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Mar 27, 2009 18:57:20 GMT -5
I have yet to read #19, so I don't really know how he has mistreated her... , maybe her dieing for him is why he is not going to kill her ... (well, maybe not kill her, but you know)
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Nina
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Post by Nina on Mar 28, 2009 6:52:29 GMT -5
I understand Connor's behavior. He has a history of people who only 'loved' him because they wanted use him. Holtz, Cordelia (not the real one of course), Jasmine and now Gwen. And he gave those people everything he had. Also he just found out that his other parents, his friends, family etc. only love him because of a spell. That must hurt a lot. Only Angel really loves him for true reasons, and he is his father. Connor probably wants somebody who loves him for who he is, and everytime he thinks that he found that person, it's fake.
He is in love with Gwen, and not only was their relation build on lies, she also picked Gunn's side above Connor's side when she betrayed them. The same Gunn who was her first, the same Gunn who killed Connor. Connor is a teenager, not a saint. He forgave her when she died because you don't speak evil about the dead ones. But now she is back and save, he wants to make her feel bad for what she did. I would be more worried if he would take her back without any problem.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Mar 28, 2009 18:31:40 GMT -5
Yeah, that would bother me as well and what you've said does make some sense, but even still, he's acting pretty bad. I don't know, maybe it's just me... :unsure:
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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 28, 2009 18:38:06 GMT -5
It'd be boring if Connor took Gwen back immediately, they obviously need to work stuff out, but I'd expect them to be grown ups about it. Sure, Connor has been betrayed and lied to a lot, but in Not Fade Away and After the Fall he's dealt with it. And it's not like Gwen was trying to kill him, she was just holding him back. She truly has feelings for him and she's made that more than clear. Just because she is alive again doesn't mean selflessly sacrificing her live to save him should have no impact.
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