patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Jul 26, 2009 19:57:22 GMT -5
Yessir, she posted on an interview that "Joss approved it." Not Joss's offices. Some people took this to be not specific enough, but it's definitely enough for me. Don't like the story much, but I accept it the same way I accept crappy episodes like "Gingerbread" that I wish didn't exist, because I take "Joss approved it" to not mean "Joss's offices approved it," but to mean... well, that Joss approved it.
BTW,
I really agree, but didn't have the patience to type all this out again. I love you, you're super, anddddd high five!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 26, 2009 20:10:24 GMT -5
Here is something Armstrong said:
I'm not looking at anything IDW comes out with as canon besides the issues with "After the Fall" attached to the name. But I do like that IDW is keeping the franchise alive and breathing. I will continue buying the ongoing title to enjoy the stories they come up with and get an Angel-fix. Even though I do wish IDW would pull back a little. It's starting to get a little much with everything they are putting out. I can't afford it all, but good for those who can. They are in Marvel and DC territory with the Angel franchise.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 21:14:17 GMT -5
I accept 1-17 and 23 as canon, as well as the Spike: After the Fall miniseries. And that's it as far as canonical IDW material, unless and until Joss specifically says otherwise.
(And Joss is sent everything for approval that gets put out under the Buffy or Angel name. That has no bearing on canonicity.)
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Jul 26, 2009 21:17:40 GMT -5
Joss's offices are sent things for approval. Kelley said Joss approved it. To you, it might be semantics, to me... not so much. The IDW Angel series, for me, is the story that counts above and beyond everything else, though it's not at all conflicting with the obviously canon Buffy series, so no worries there.
RE: Kelley's statement:
Might have forgotten to say "his offices" instead of "him," but I interpret it as "him." In this case, when there is quite obviously no be all, end all answer... to each his own.
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Post by Wyndam on Jul 26, 2009 21:50:44 GMT -5
I really agree, but didn't have the patience to type all this out again. I love you, you're super, anddddd high five! This is my stance as well. In the end, with lack of participation from Joss, there will never be a definite answer about any of this stuff, which is why the arguments always just go around and around and around and around. So I don't fault anyone saying that just #1-17 are canon and I would hope they would do the same for the rest of us.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 22:27:21 GMT -5
Whatever makes people happy. It's only a story, after all.
It's just frustrating that people can't seem to agree on a frame of reference for what's real and what isn't within that story.
I'd be willing to bet good money that Joss's approval of "Aftermath" is no different from the approval he's given to every Buffy comic and book since the start.
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Post by jessesopher on Jul 26, 2009 22:53:37 GMT -5
The way I look at it, it's kind of weird to consider ATF canon and not the issues that deal with the (for lack of a better word) aftermath of ATF. After the Fall brought up a lot more questions than it answered. I was really happy with the way Ats ended. I always imagined Angel & co. fighting the unfightable battle and dying. It was the perfect ending for the story, I think. But then Whedon & Lynch came up with this brilliant addition to the story. It would have been great if at the end of ATF, they said: Done. Angel is dead, got Shanshued, whatever. But that's not what happened. It would drive me crazy to consider ATF canon, but nothing else. It's like a TV series being canceled after a cliff-hanger episode... you always wonder what happened. There were a lot of repercussions to what happened in ATF and the rest of the story has yet to be told. And if Joss isn't going to tell the story, let someone else do it. Like I said, from what I can tell, the Angelverse is in very capable hands. Joss approved ATF and its ending, so I'm assuming he knew they were going to continue the series. Like it or not, Joss isn't involved in the continuation of the series. But this is, in fact, the continuation and Joss knew they would continue the numbering and didn't seem to disapprove then.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 26, 2009 23:13:38 GMT -5
There seems to be a perception that calling something non-canonical is the same as rejecting it as a valid or enjoyable story.
"Canon" is simply that material that will become a permanent part of Angel's character, personality and history, even when Joss writes him again. I guarantee you that when he gets around to telling Angel's story again, he's not going to feel bound by things added on to the character by others without his participation.
"Canonical Angel" is just another way of saying "Joss's Angel."
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Jul 26, 2009 23:46:40 GMT -5
If people want to view Aftermath and future Angel comics as canon, that's their right. That kind of makes the concept of "canon" completely irrelevant, but yes... it is their right. Nobody can stop them. Some things are, by definition, not matters of individual opinion, and I think canon is one of those things. If everyone has their own "canon," then nobody really knows what's "real" and what isn't within the context of the story... which is the reason a concept of canon exists in the first place. You make a good point, but Buffyverse canon isn't clearly defined. There's no Star Wars-style Holocron explaining everything, as much as I'd like there to be. Also, canon isn't a black or white situation. There are different levels to it. The TV shows are apparently "more" canon than the comics, since even Joss would throw the comics out to do more live-action. Some comics, like Spike: Asylum, aren't fully canon, but are still referenced in canon works. Joss has described The Origin as "pretty much canon", so he apparently doesn't consider it as canon as Season Eight. Since Joss is unlikely to ever say "here is a list of what constitutes canon" (since it would damage sales of other comics), it is still a somewhat subjective matter. Honestly, I don't think anyone knows. Armstrong said that the story was approved by Joss Whedon's offices, but the older comics and novels were also approved and none of those are canon. But then again, Aftermath does follow up on the events that happened in After the Fall. Actually, she said Joss himself approved it. Just for specifics. I take that with a pinch of salt. And the end of the day, she was trying to promote her book, so she's not going to say it's not canon. In the same breath, she says fans can dismiss her story if they want because it's not by Joss.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jul 28, 2009 13:02:31 GMT -5
How do you assume Joss won't refer to any IDW stories when Angel's brought into season 8? He liked non-canon Betta George enough to want him included. If he wants to include any IDW stuff in his canon writings, he can do so. But until then, it's not canon. Where did I say Joss say that he intended never to return to Angel? I said he's expressed no intention to return to the series. I would assume that's because he's busy with other projects. Just because he's not going to continually write Angel stories doesn't mean the right to guide Angel's official story passes on to someone else. It's Joss's story, whether he's actively producing new material or not. The IDW stuff coming out now is "expanded universe." Joss is under no obligation to recognize it when he decides to write Angel in canon again. I don't disagree on any particular point. I was just saying Joss is out of the picture for what seems like the long term, and the story is continuing without him. I n broad terms, canon stopped when his name disappeared from the top, absolutely correct. Circumstances are more blurry than they once were however. The plot continues on, sometimes from canon writers and in the new primary medium. The plot may never be overwritten by Joss, and there's a looming risk that official canon may well be overwritten by Joss anyway lol.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 28, 2009 13:30:14 GMT -5
Might have forgotten to say "his offices" instead of "him," but I interpret it as "him." In this case, when there is quite obviously no be all, end all answer... to each his own. It's still up for interpretation and that's really the point, I think. Besides, I have trouble believing that Joss approved of anything in Aftermath. If the script/story actually did come across his path, I'd say it was given a glance, all things he thought were way off (character voices, Kate, PTB, the awful art if he even got to see that) were noted, made him grimace and then he was forced to realize he didn't have the time to rewrite the whole damn thing the way he rewrote BtVS S2 Halloween episode. Or the way he rewrote the entire ending to Beneath You. Because he had Dollhouse, Buffy Season 8 and Cabin in the Woods on his plate. I imagine he views Aftermath the way he views the Kuzuis movie aspirations - "I hope it's cool." because it would have been douchebaggery for him to try to stop Aftermath when IDW has the right to publish it. But sadly, Aftermath is not cool.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 28, 2009 14:07:17 GMT -5
I think Joss's approval is more a courtesy that allows him to object to any plans that would be just dreadfully out of character or inappropriate or damaging to the story, or interfere with major parts of Angel's arc that Joss wants to reserve for himself (fulfillment of the Shanshu, etc.)
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 28, 2009 18:31:02 GMT -5
I will wait to read the whole thing before I accept it as canon or not... But if he has approved I guess I will accept it, but I don't know how much more comics I can accept with just his approval.
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fear
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Post by fear on Jul 28, 2009 23:43:38 GMT -5
To me only Angel: After the fall is Canon.
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
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Post by neowhobaz on Jul 29, 2009 0:03:10 GMT -5
I'm with thorn and anyone else gritting their teeth but taking it. People don't have to like something for it to be canon. Just like there is a half dozen episodes from either show i'd love to have never happened and to be honest under the right circumstances I'd just as well consider not canon too but they exist and i've learned to accept them just as I have with aftermath. I bought it and read it in its entirety and I really do hope what little was established isnt expanded on but if it is... it is. thats that.
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Post by Emmie on Jul 29, 2009 2:24:54 GMT -5
Except the debate over canon regarding Aftermath existed long before we even knew it was going to be...not good.
The interpretation of that quote Pat has above can go either way. Hence why Aftermath canon is not clearly defined and I like my canon comics like a woman likes to know she's pregnant. When you know, you know. Aftermath exists in an unestablished canon state, which means that it's not canon to me.
But who cares? It doesn't mean the later issues done by Lynch and Willingham after him won't be good.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 29, 2009 2:54:45 GMT -5
I like my canon comics like a woman likes to know she's pregnant. When you know, you know. That's also how I like my Woman and Conon Comics...
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Smashed
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Post by Smashed on Jul 31, 2009 0:21:04 GMT -5
I wish we could have Brian ask Joss if Aftermath goes wih official canon.
Sigh,
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balesthebloody
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Post by balesthebloody on Aug 2, 2009 21:01:39 GMT -5
I view it as a bad dream. A very, very, very bad dream.
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Post by wytchcroft on Aug 20, 2009 15:19:00 GMT -5
the canon argument seems to have come from this which to me reads as, Joss hasn't seen any of it, he just knows it exists and has had zero participation in its creation. But then Cowboyguy said simply "it is canon." and there was much cheering and making with the squee. HUH?!?!? Logic meet Window. Anyhow, having just finished reading the whole lot i can only echo Emmie; But sadly, Aftermath is not cool. it is not cool, it is in fact horrible. but i guess over all, the canon thing is up to individuals and there's a point to be made about what canon actually means - and so thanks are owed to the man below; There seems to be a perception that calling something non-canonical is the same as rejecting it as a valid or enjoyable story. "Canon" is simply that material that will become a permanent part of Angel's character, personality and history, even when Joss writes him again. I guarantee you that when he gets around to telling Angel's story again, he's not going to feel bound by things added on to the character by others without his participation. "Canonical Angel" is just another way of saying "Joss's Angel." This is true and well worth pointing out - the canon argument can go on and on - and maybe spoil the enjoyment of things best left alone... so i wouldn't begrudge people calling Aftermath canon, though clearly the idea baffles me, nor would i criticize anyone for enjoying it which i didn't. at all.
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