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Post by faithswatcher on Jul 22, 2009 6:59:12 GMT -5
Yeah I get he has done flashbacks before, but flashforward, thats new to Joss ('cept Time of your Life). And it isn't a one episode flashforward that follows one linear story like the usual flashback episodes, its a full on fractured part of the future being fed to us in 3 minute sections. If im honest, it actually kind of reminded me of Damages, as you get tiny clippets that seem to be linear but as the season goes along, you realise a really important 10 second clip is missing, or the events were not in the order you first believed. What im trying to say is that in the past flashbacks have been a part of furthering the story, Epitaph one on a basic level was part mystery/make you more interested in watching season 2 which I see as keeping with new TV trends.
Perhaps it was just because they started at the same time, but I clearly connected Fringe and Dollhouse, but I think the reason Fringe was more successful was because it followed the CSI/Xfiles routine of death/supernatural then the episode they solve it (yaaaaay!). The reason I prefer Dollhouse is because it is more character driven, but I still feel Dollhouse is a victim of trying to keep with 'new' trends such as Flashforwards, weird science and even big corporation = big bad conspiracy.
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Post by wytchcroft on Jul 22, 2009 16:13:14 GMT -5
I still feel Dollhouse is a victim of trying to keep with 'new' trends such as Flashforwards, weird science and even big corporation = big bad conspiracy. flashforwards - Buffy; Restless weird science; The Initiative, The Troika, Buffybot, Angel S5, Serenity big corporation = big bad conspiracy - Wolfram and Heart, Blue Sun etc etc.
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Just Willow
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Post by Just Willow on Jul 22, 2009 16:16:24 GMT -5
so i just finished it! OMG AWESOME! i love the ending, in particular. poor Whiskey, she would rather die in the Dollhouse than go to Safe Haven. And the ending was INCREDIBLE with all the pictures on the wall, and the ladder climbing up to 'a better place'. 9.5/10, .5 taken off for the little girl and her bad acting at a couple parts. overall, she was fairly good, though.
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Post by Rebecca on Jul 22, 2009 17:14:51 GMT -5
I still feel Dollhouse is a victim of trying to keep with 'new' trends such as Flashforwards, weird science and even big corporation = big bad conspiracy. flashforwards - Buffy; Restless weird science; The Initiative, The Troika, Buffybot, Angel S5, Serenity big corporation = big bad conspiracy - Wolfram and Heart, Blue Sun etc etc. I have to agree that big corporation = big bad conspiracy isn't a new trend to Whedon, he's always had those themes in his shows. Season 3 of Buffy was all about how corrupted institutions are (schools, mayor's office, watcher's council), and Joss clearly made big bad conspiracy a center point for Dollhouse with 'Man on the Street'. And Dollhouse = weird science to me. I know that's left of center, but that's just what I view it as I haven't seen Epitaph One yet, so I can't comment on the flash forwarding or snippeted portions of that particular episode, but Spy in the House of Love and Alpha both had flash backs and snippeted editing, leapfrogging all over. It seems to be something Joss is doing on purpose, to engage the mind to pay attention, lol.
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Post by faithswatcher on Jul 22, 2009 17:31:29 GMT -5
Restless wasnt a flashforward. It was forshadowing, which Joss does excellently. The flashforward, of actually showing us whats going to happen he's never done. I never actually loved firefly, so I dont overly remember the full story arc. I get that Joss has used science way before, its hard to describe. Its never been explictly 'deep'. Adam was just a frankenstein monster, the nerds playing with technology. Ok maybe this may explain it better, Dollhouse is centered AROUND the technology, previous series of his is character driven. Dollhouse is less about the characters (so far) but by the looks of Dollhouse, Caroline is going to get a bit cooler And by the way, did Joss really make it with the intention of straight to DVD? I thought it was meant to air.
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Post by wytchcroft on Jul 22, 2009 19:23:06 GMT -5
Restless wasnt a flashforward. It was forshadowing, which Joss does excellently. The flashforward, of actually showing us whats going to happen he's never done. I never actually loved firefly, so I dont overly remember the full story arc. I get that Joss has used science way before, its hard to describe. Its never been explictly 'deep'. Adam was just a frankenstein monster, the nerds playing with technology. Ok maybe this may explain it better, Dollhouse is centered AROUND the technology, previous series of his is character driven. Dollhouse is less about the characters (so far) but by the looks of Dollhouse, Caroline is going to get a bit cooler And by the way, did Joss really make it with the intention of straight to DVD? I thought it was meant to air. re: Restless, oh sorry, my bad - i was pressed for time before (my excuse!) - yes you are right Restless doesn't flash forward so much as foreshadow - but, because it jumps all over time and logic and makes visual some of the elements and hints to come it FEELS like a flashforward and serves the same purpose - of course there's future travel now in Buffy8 but... as Firefly, science? not so much - but Serenity the movie, yes. It's not centre stage because ultimately River's treatment and the whole Pax thing are just macguffins (sp?) as they are in Dollhouse - i don't think Dollhouse revolves around the science AT ALL, it's just the sticking pole. I don't agree that we haven't seen character focus, we have seen less character interaction - and i hope we get more in S2 - but the show itself has certainly been about the characters all the way. With the Initiative i wasn't thinking of Adam so much as the caging and experimenting with the 'hostiles' that's where the bad corporation element and weird science come in. If they could have done, i'm sure the Initiative would have had fun imprinting and wiping demons and vamps and what not... Spike and Clem in the Dollhouse, now there's an idea... Hmm.. this is why i shouldn't post too much, i get all jumbled up. Apologies.
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Post by faithswatcher on Jul 22, 2009 19:44:29 GMT -5
I get jumbled up when im trying to express myself in long posts too haha. I think Dollhouse is completely centered around the science. Its almost as if the science of the dollhouse is the main character. The 'standalone' episodes revolve around Echo (usually) playing a person for whatever reason. The big mythology episodes are centered around the science, such as Omega, he gives Echo a personality, they use the science to bring back Caroline etc. Epitaph one, the chaos has ensued due to the science that has been created. JJ Abrahms, although I LOVE lost, and LOVE alias. They both center around a 'gimmick' lets call it. Lost = flashing/past/future. Alias = double agents/double crossing And now Fringe [spoilers] is going with alternate timelines etc.[/spoilers] Lost in particular, I wonder if the episodes will be rewatchable once its finished as the first viewing of the episodes are often "wait for the twist in the final act". But anyway thats discussion for another time. I like the freedom of Buffy and Angel and even Firefly i guess, but i find these newer programmes almost use the premise as the series as another character. And I feel thats what Joss has done with Dollhouse, he has centered it too much around the science, and i hope in the next season it becomes more character driven, character interaction and more Joss. I don't think i can explain it any better I just feel like dollhouse, if not controlled properly will feel like an Abrahms clone and less of a Joss original creation. In case you dont get it, love lost, love alias, hate JJ.
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Post by wytchcroft on Jul 22, 2009 20:16:18 GMT -5
I get jumbled up when im trying to express myself in long posts too haha. I think Dollhouse is completely centered around the science. Its almost as if the science of the dollhouse is the main character. The 'standalone' episodes revolve around Echo (usually) playing a person for whatever reason. The big mythology episodes are centered around the science, such as Omega, he gives Echo a personality, they use the science to bring back Caroline etc. Epitaph one, the chaos has ensued due to the science that has been created. JJ Abrahms, although I LOVE lost, and LOVE alias. They both center around a 'gimmick' lets call it. Lost = flashing/past/future. Alias = double agents/double crossing And now Fringe [spoilers] is going with alternate timelines etc.[/spoilers] .... I like the freedom of Buffy and Angel and even Firefly i guess, but i find these newer programmes almost use the premise as the series as another character. And I feel thats what Joss has done with Dollhouse, he has centered it too much around the science, and i hope in the next season it becomes more character driven, character interaction and more Joss. God yes, definitely some valid points, although i guess with Alias and Lost both having ex-Buffy writers onboard some leakage between all these shows is understandable - and i love that it was Sierra (and not Eliza) who got the 'Alias' mission, that whole sequence was sooo funny! As for character interaction, i notice that most forums are still comparing Echo to Ghost but for me the comparison is just as much with Stage Fright where the Ballard material doesn't work half as well, and later episodes where we (the viewer) are really lacking some actual Paul and Carline/Echo face time, which we actually would have got from the get go. Echo/Eliza actually had more time with Alpha! Epitaph One impressed me because the characters were so THERE it didn't matter that we'd never seen them before and that mostly they were just riffs on generic stock types.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Jul 23, 2009 13:31:01 GMT -5
I recently watched it and boy was I confused. I will have to watch it again Tuesday when the Blu-ray comes out (yay ). Maybe then I will understand it a little better. I can kinda see why Fox didn't air it b/c it really doesn't seem to fit in with the previous episodes. Of course, now that I will have the Blu-ray and be watching the whole season over again, things will make better sense. I think it was a great episode, just uber confusing. And yay for Felicia Day
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Marcos
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Post by Marcos on Jul 24, 2009 20:54:17 GMT -5
About all the JJ Abrams stuff, well, I had a troubled history with JJ Abrams, but lets face it: even though Fringe looks like it's more science than character (I guess it is. never saw much of it), Alias can be considered a true Buffy child. The characters were always the focus (in the early years, at least), and the humanity was outstanding. I totally disagree with the notion that Alias' focus was about spy stuff. It was a big brilliant metaphor for a pretty messy family. And Lost, even with the weird science, still is all about the characters, totally character-driven. JJ is not an amazing writer, but I could never say he is not a character-driven storyteller (again, I'm talking about Alias, Lost, Felicity. Never saw Fringe, nor Star Trek).
Dollhouse's biggest flaw (apart from the lack of humor), I agree, is the plot-oriented thing. It's not really a flaw, but to us, die-hard Whedonists, I guess it's pretty bad (or weird) when a Joss show doesn't have that usually amazing character development and humanism. BUT I'm pretty sure that season one was as human as it could get. After all, the dolls are not real people!
After all we saw on E1 (which had the humanity I expect from Whedon), I bet humanity will take over next season.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 28, 2009 21:01:56 GMT -5
Just got my DVD set today, and just watched this episode.
Not sure what to say, except Joss and his compatriots never stop amazing me.
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armadonrk
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Post by armadonrk on Jul 28, 2009 21:19:08 GMT -5
I'm fan of many of the shows mentioned here, but Dollhouse felt very distinctly different to me.
Never before has a single episode redefined a series for me.
Because, let's face it, even when the writing was at its best, Dollhouse had very limited potential (as far as I could see) and was aimless most of the time. I was pretty much relying on the writing (and acting) purely to draw me in, and was seeing no storytelling potential in the show. Not at anything near the level of Epitaph One at least. Before I was watching (and planned to continue watching) because I liked Mr. Whedon's previous work, but now I'm genuinely excited for the next season. The show went from having next to no potential, to being chock full of it. It departed from every tired plot point we got during the first season, not only focusing on the strongest points, but introducing ideas I hadn't even thought of.
Dollhouse went from the bottom of my 'list' to the top of it. The fact that this episode was never aired seems like poor decision, but I think there's potential in holding it off till the new season. This is the single best hook episode for the series, in my opinion, and I hope Fox promotes the hell out of it and uses this is a launch pad for the coming season. The fact is, at the end of a lackluster premiere season, this wouldn't have got the viewership Fox really needed to get the ball rolling. With any sense, I can see them boosting Dollhouse's numbers a great deal with this.
Now, ratings and numbers and network junk aside, I'm interested to see where it goes from here. Do we pick up where we left off with Omega, or from Epitaph? Do we go linear again, or stay fractured and flashbacky? As a fan of the flashbacky-ness (and a creator of it), I think I'd appreciate that more than most, but a more coherent 'picking up where we left off' tone might be best, now that we have some semblance of where we're going. Let's find out how we got/get there. (These tricky timelines are difficult on the tenses.)
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 29, 2009 4:32:38 GMT -5
Definitely the best episode. So happy there is finally a Dollhouse episode that moved me to tears. A beautiful piece of television. I was scratching my head for the first 10 minutes or so, I just didn't really know what to think. Definitely didn't expect the show to go in the direction it went with this episode. But once we started to understand what was happening with all the memories, it turned into something extraordinary. The acting from everybody was just ace, especially from Olivia, Amy and Fran. I haven't been this excited about Dollhouse since the series began and I'm even more happy that it was renewed now. I want the show to continue for years so we can see how everything unravels. Won't be able to get this out of my head for awhile, so amazing. The final 10 minutes were heartbreaking, but beautiful.
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Ferg
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Post by Ferg on Jul 29, 2009 6:44:32 GMT -5
I seriously didn't expect Dollhouse to go so dark, I mean the future for DH is freakin miserable, I'd love to see the show become Epitaph One (as a whole) if it continues for a few more years.
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weredog
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Post by weredog on Jul 29, 2009 9:04:31 GMT -5
I just recently watched "Epitaph One". Although I do prefer the cinematography in this episode to the other episodes of the first season, the plot was absolutely confusing. I... I just don't get it. It felt like I was watching a series' seventh season finale after only having watched the first. I mean this with all due respect: what was this episode about? Are they going to reveal these flash forwards in the next season? If so, are they going to expand the contexts of those scenes? Oh, boy, I am sadly disappointed...
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Jul 30, 2009 1:27:58 GMT -5
I just recently watched "Epitaph One". Although I do prefer the cinematography in this episode to the other episodes of the first season, the plot was absolutely confusing. I... I just don't get it. It felt like I was watching a series' seventh season finale after only having watched the first. I mean this with all due respect: what was this episode about? Are they going to reveal these flash forwards in the next season? If so, are they going to expand the contexts of those scenes? Oh, boy, I am sadly disappointed... I just had to respond to this quote...you do realize THAT WAS THE POINT, right? To explain what was happening in the future enough but not too much in order to keep the viewer interested in the show. Anyway, my thoughts. I just finished watching it. One word: incredible. From the acting, to the storytelling, to the filming, to the flashbacks. Excellence. Pure excellence. This is the one episode of Dollhouse I can safely say that would make me recommend the show to someone. I always had an "eh" feeling in the back of my mind when watching Dollhouse, but if the show soon turns into this (and by soon I mean like Season Three) I would sure be recommending it to everyone I knew. I have to say, it was sorta weird, because I was watching it...I almost felt like I was being spoiled. Like I shouldn't know this is what happens in the future...but I guess, if Joss doesn't have a plan, he wouldn't have shown so much of the future of the Dollhouse series in one episode...he wouldn't have even written it down. What I think he might do, is have the show start leading to these events and us, the viewers, will know what is going to happen in 2019. But something will happen. Like Coraline prevents the Dollhouse from taking over the world in the future and so we got a sneak peak of what would happen IF their plan failed or if they never even tried. Does that make sense? Anyway...BRING ON SEASON TWO!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Jul 30, 2009 16:14:33 GMT -5
I have to say, it was sorta weird, because I was watching it...I almost felt like I was being spoiled. Like I shouldn't know this is what happens in the future...but I guess, if Joss doesn't have a plan, he wouldn't have shown so much of the future of the Dollhouse series in one episode...he wouldn't have even written it down. I sort of felt that way too, but here is something Joss said at Comic Con that is very interesting: It's pretty cool knowing that they may be "unreliable". But I love all the questions it brought up and it'd be amazing to see them all explored, how they got there. Epitaph One was such a genius tease. Now I just hope FOX allows Dollhouse to continue in its little timeslot for years so we can see everything. But I have to say, if Dollhouse did get cancelled, Epitaph One would've been a perfect finale.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Jul 30, 2009 16:33:51 GMT -5
I would have liked to see Epitaph One as the a series finale too...but I am still glad it wasn't.
Awww, I sorta wanted the show to turn into a post-apocalyptic nightmare at some point. Would have been a big change like the one for Angel: Season 5.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 31, 2009 1:04:41 GMT -5
it was awesome... definitely in my top 10 Jossverse episodes... it was a bit confusing, but i loved the scene with Adelle and Topher. It really speaks to Adelle's character.
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Just Willow
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Post by Just Willow on Jul 31, 2009 16:57:16 GMT -5
oooh, my sister just watched it for the first time and we think we figured something out.
you know how Whiskey doesn't come with them cause she says she 'has to wait'. we were trying to figure out who she would be waiting for, and then my sister said Boyd! cause in the flashback with him he said 'I will come for you' and so she's waiting for him!!!!
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