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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 7, 2009 16:11:53 GMT -5
With all due respect, I disagree with you both and I think that you're unfairly tarring this Raki person with the brush of a close minded homophobe. Sorry, but the tone and choice of words in that letter pretty much screamed "close-minded homophobe." One can object to the unexpected change in Buffy's character negatively if one wishes, but that letter was written with a deeply offensive tone. It's no secret that Joss Whedon is gay-friendly, and people who aren't gay-friendly are going to be unhappy with the stuff he does. Those people should look elsewhere for their entertainment, frankly, rather than acting all surprised and offended when something like this happens. I stand fully behind my comment. ETA: I think it's fairly ridiculous to claim that a person who considers herself "straight" can't have a homosexual experience or even become bisexual or gay. It happens all the time, and Joss is well on record as stating that he considers sexual orientation "fluid." "Straight Buffy" could be with a woman just as well as "Straight Willow" could.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Aug 7, 2009 16:48:37 GMT -5
Many times the topic of Buffy's sexuality, and or the like or dislike of it, we just have to agree to disagree. I will say that from -my- real life experiences and what I know of my friends, I know that this does happen. Some women get curious, have an experience with another woman...then go right back to men and stay there. That's all I know.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 7, 2009 16:57:43 GMT -5
I didn't want this to turn into (yet another) debate over Buffy's sexuality... that field has been pretty well plowed. (No pun intended, I swear.)
My comment was solely on the offensiveness of the letter in question.
A letter that uses the word "perverted" twice to describe a lesbian sexual encounter is not something that I consider reasonably defensible.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 7, 2009 17:21:47 GMT -5
And "perverted" is something that's unusual in the Buffyverse when? Sex with animated corpses. Joss essentially describing the "I'm Under Your Spell" sequence ender as deliberate "porn". The suggestion that Angel and Spike (two males with apparent exclusive heterosexual tendencies) having had a tryst before... Not saying that any of these things are necessary perverted (well, except perhaps necrophilia), but if an experimental romp between two females is perverted, then surely these others must be too.
Whether one buys into the whole sexual fluidity thing is one thing. To indicate that it was perverted to have Buffy try something new, well, maybe it is, but I fail to see where it falls out of the ordinary in the context of the short list above. And seriously, "lez-faux" is enough justification for me... one line was worth the price of admission (i.e. Buffy and Satsu snuggles), that's all.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
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Post by Marcos on Aug 7, 2009 19:47:43 GMT -5
Oz is talky, isnt he?? Odd. But I loved the issue 'cause I missed Oz so much!!!!! The amount flashbacks of Oz's journey gives me the impression that this Tibet thing will be really important in the grand scheme of the season's plot. Well, the dialogues were great and we totally had some pretty serious clues about Twilight. -He's totally not Giles/Xander. (BIG FRAKING YAAAYY!! Scott Allie just comfirmed that Twilight is not someone who could be in two places at the same time!!) -He really knows Buffy (I'm starting to think on Emmie's theory that it may be Angel...)
Oh, and they said "Spike" so many times that I'm also sure that Twilight is not Spike. If it was him, they wouldn't give it away so easily. (Or maybe that's what Jane wanted us to think...)
Also, Twilight's last line is serious evidence that the "traitor" will be Buffy herself. It was indicated in Always Darkest, and now I'm almost sure that Twilight won't be the ultimate villain. He will make Buffy fight herself somehow... About the sexuality thing... Wasn't it totally made clear already that Buffy didn't turn lesbian? She had a same-sex experience, and she enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean she's not straight. Things are not that black and white. Maybe it starts with a moment thing, a desire (as with Buffy/Satsu), and it doesn't last. It's pretty normal. Even a totally so-called straight person could be able to enjoy an homosexual experience, depending on the person and the circumstances, and then not going further with the same-sexness. But that doesn't make anyone gay or even bi (those are conditions, not 'states of mind'). The 'Raki' letter sounded really homophobe to me, as if he/she tolerates one or two lesbians but that's it. That's a person who can't understand the notion of "experiment"...
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 594
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Post by neowhobaz on Aug 7, 2009 20:05:48 GMT -5
Oz is talky, isnt he?? Odd. But I loved the issue 'cause I missed Oz so much!!!!! The amount flashbacks of Oz's journey gives me the impression that this Tibet thing will be really important in the grand scheme of the season's plot. Well, the dialogues were great and we totally had some pretty serious clues about Twilight. -He's totally not Giles/Xander. (BIG FRAKING YAAAYY!! Scott Allie just comfirmed that Twilight is not someone who could be in two places at the same time!!) -He really knows Buffy (I'm starting to think on Emmie's theory that it may be Angel...)
Oh, and they said "Spike" so many times that I'm also sure that Twilight is not Spike. If it was him, they wouldn't give it away so easily. (Or maybe that's what Jane wanted us to think...)
Also, Twilight's last line is serious evidence that the "traitor" will be Buffy herself. It was indicated in Always Darkest, and now I'm almost sure that Twilight won't be the ultimate villain. He will make Buffy fight herself somehow... About the sexuality thing... Wasn't it totally made clear already that Buffy didn't turn lesbian? She had a same-sex experience, and she enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean she's not straight. Things are not that black and white. Maybe it starts with a moment thing, a desire (as with Buffy/Satsu), and it doesn't last. It's pretty normal. Even a totally so-called straight person could be able to enjoy an homosexual experience, depending on the person and the circumstances, and then not going further with the same-sexness. But that doesn't make anyone gay or even bi (those are conditions, not 'states of mind'). The 'Raki' letter sounded really homophobe to me, as if he/she tolerates one or two lesbians but that's it. That's a person who can't understand the notion of "experiment"... Scott allie confirmed that? really? If he did the nit really is a big yay
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Post by buffyfan21 on Aug 7, 2009 20:09:34 GMT -5
My take on the whole sexuality thing: Buffy sleeping with a woman does not make her gay, and even if she were gay, so what? It certainly wouldn't change my love for her, and I feel sorry for those who feel otherwise... I wish that letter hadn't even been published, but I understand Scott's desire to present all opinions, even the nasty ones... Im definately thinking Riley is working with Twilight as a double Agent for the Slayers, and him being shown with them was just to shock us/throw us off. I was thinking the same thing. I dunno, it just seemed like some of Riley's comments were meant to distract Twilight and throw him off the trail. I just don't see Riley hurting Buffy and the others. Of course, I could be totally wrong and it's possible that I'm only seeing what I want to see. It could be that Riley really is working for Twilight and we're only meant to think him a double agent b/c him playing for the side of evil is the last thing us fans would expect. I dunno though, I still hope I'm right about this. Either way, I guess time will tell. Us fans may be in for a huge shock... I agree about the art also. I am usually pleased with Jeanty's art, but it looked kinda sloppy this time. Hopefully it will improve next issue.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 7, 2009 20:34:07 GMT -5
Joss said that Buffy wasn't going to "turn gay," but it's an open question what his definition of "turning gay" might be.
Scott Allie said the story of Buffy and Satsu's relationship isn't finished yet. It's pretty clear they won't be running off to Massachusetts to get married, but I hold out hope they will wind up in a Nice Place together, sexually or not. (Not that I expect anyone to be very happy at the end of season 8, but hope springs eternal.)
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Post by buffyfan21 on Aug 7, 2009 21:03:42 GMT -5
I too hope we haven't seen the end of Buffy/Satsu.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
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Post by Marcos on Aug 7, 2009 21:33:52 GMT -5
Satsu surely would be a much cooler lover than Riley was (I like the guy, but he was kinda boring), and not as troubled as Angel and Spike. She could make Buffy really happy. And as far as politics go, it would be pretty remarkable.
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trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
Bad day. Started bad, stayed that way.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 188
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Aug 8, 2009 10:44:31 GMT -5
What amazes me is that people like that could possibly feel comfortable in Joss fandom. It's like being a Nazi Skinhead who loves rap music and complains that there are too many blacks doing it. With all due respect, I disagree with you both and I think that you're unfairly tarring this Raki person with the brush of a close minded homophobe. I did not get that vibe from this person's letter, and in fact, I believe that he or she has a honest and genuinely valid concern/complaint. And I'd agree with you if I hadn't seen the line that proves otherwise: "Wasn't one gay character enough?" Short sentence and it speaks volumes. It's a pretty blatant "I already suffer one of them, don't start putting more in. You already made your PC quota, why would you need more of them?". Nevermind that we've had more than one in the series. Not to mention Raki's use of 'perverted'. I like that you accuse the other side of 'over reacting' and 'letting your emotions cloud your judgment' when the same can apply to you just as well (the long rant kind of reinforcing that). Long story short, there was a very rude and unintelligent vibe behind Raki's letter. Whether it was actually homophobic (though how that's even in question is shocking, all things considered) or not doesn't change either of those facets. As for the rest, so as to not quote the whole thing: You went on a nice long rant about something that never happened. Buffy didn't become bi, she didn't dabble with bisexuality or any of the things you said. Guess what? Heterosexual people do, on occaision, mess around with the same sex. And the reverse is also true. It HAPPENS. Fairly often actually. The situation was contextualized very well, all things considered. It was firmly established what exactly happened. The fact that this argument is STILL going on and people STILL don't understand how simple this was is...well, disturbing honestly. *insert really tasteless "Buffy's a *lesbianslurhere*" joke here cuz I'm classy like that*
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Aug 8, 2009 10:56:25 GMT -5
Was anyone else shocked when Oz said he had a baby?
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by BlueJay on Aug 8, 2009 14:03:30 GMT -5
I was.
I didn't read the previews and I stayed away from this discussion for a while. So I was thoroughly surprised and impressed with this issue over the previous one. Definitely a winner. I think I'm feeling more for Oz now because he's completely settled down. And Buffy had to go and make his family and home a target. He's totally cool with seeing the Scoobies again, but he knows the danger that comes with it. I'm eager for the next issue.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Aug 8, 2009 14:14:24 GMT -5
I'm really feeling this arc so far. I'm enjoying this season a lot more in the second half (now, that is) than the first.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 9, 2009 14:55:03 GMT -5
Something I really loved about this issue was the line about Bay being Oz's "other half" and then when they're doing the monologue of explaining the story, they easily slip back and forth between Oz and Bay's voices. It truly shows their intimacy. Bay and Oz are very close.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
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Post by BlueJay on Aug 9, 2009 15:08:44 GMT -5
I also thought their love scene was extremely cute and romantic.
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Post by Rebecca on Aug 9, 2009 15:18:03 GMT -5
I'm still struggling with why Willow was so distraught by seeing Oz and Bay's baby. Like she and Kennedy don't have a future because they cannot reproduce in the same manner a heterosexual couple can?
Is this something homosexuals typically grieve over? Or is it speaking to Willow's state of mind in particular?
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Post by faithswatcher on Aug 9, 2009 15:44:07 GMT -5
I didnt originally see it from a lesbian/cant reproduce with your loved one way. I saw it as a 'grass greener on the other side' way. Imagine Willow and magic as a woman in her mid twenties still drinking and partying, then suddenly she runs into her old love and he has settled down and has a family and is clearly happy, clearly grown up, even though you are happy, you may be jealous of the 'other life' which your ex love has gone and achieved.
By the way, re reading retreat part 2 again. All the scenes of Giles with the baby, what if the brutal heart breaking conclusion to the retreat ends with Giles giving the baby to twilight or something along the lines of when Wesley kidnapped connor, thinking he was doing the right thing.....
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Aug 9, 2009 16:02:34 GMT -5
I wonder if there's some significance to how interested the baby is in Giles, or if it was just for the cuteness factor.
I guess it's a good sign that he seems to like Giles and doesn't scream whenever he comes near...
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Post by Rebecca on Aug 9, 2009 16:53:27 GMT -5
I didnt originally see it from a lesbian/cant reproduce with your loved one way. I saw it as a 'grass greener on the other side' way. Imagine Willow and magic as a woman in her mid twenties still drinking and partying, then suddenly she runs into her old love and he has settled down and has a family and is clearly happy, clearly grown up, even though you are happy, you may be jealous of the 'other life' which your ex love has gone and achieved. By the way, re reading retreat part 2 again. All the scenes of Giles with the baby, what if the brutal heart breaking conclusion to the retreat ends with Giles giving the baby to twilight or something along the lines of when Wesley kidnapped connor, thinking he was doing the right thing..... Ok, so just ex is settled kind of way. I don't know, she just seemed more distraught than, for instance, I would be in that situation. Maybe it will have more significance in the following issues. I'll keep my eye on it Why would Twilight want the baby? lol. I have no doubt that Giles may be the betrayer, but I don't that would qualify as betraying Buffy herself, leading to the so-called 'betrayal room'.
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