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Post by Emmie on Oct 7, 2009 19:53:33 GMT -5
Collex, I think Pat's going to immediately take issue with that being that he actually writes comics. It's a fair enough criticism, but it doesn't quite work for him, I think. For some reason, Buffy summoning the goddesses reminded me of Gachnar in Fear, Itself. She just punched her fist through the floor in a moment of desperation, pushed to the wall. The wrath goddesses of Tibet seems more in line to me than LotR tree people or fairies. Because it takes you back to the foundational mythos of the Buffyverse - the old ones, the gods, were BAD. Earth didn't begin as a paradise. It all falls in line for me.
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Post by Wyndam on Oct 7, 2009 19:54:06 GMT -5
I enjoyed this issue. I would have preferred if the goddesses had looked different though, did they have to look like exact images you'd find on Google or in textbooks/folklore books? It would have been great if Jane/Jeanty had played around with their look, maybe make them look like nasty old women or something?
Big giant hot air balloons weren't necessary. Other than that, highly enjoyable issue.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 7, 2009 20:09:48 GMT -5
The design of the goddesses actually showed that Jeanty did do his research, without being too slavish to the original appearances. He edited certain things that wouldn't translate quite as well as comic art, but kept the original design faithful without being too reverent. I would personally take offense if someone thought that they could just mess around with images of a deity revered by my culture.
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 7, 2009 20:16:43 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this issue; mostly the buffy-centric stuff, how she's "dealing" with dander. I hope Xand-man got the message that things aren't okay.
I noticed that they brought up Dawn's key-ness again. I wonder if that will have more significance later on.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 7, 2009 20:42:06 GMT -5
I thought this was a really good issue. It's an example of an episode that probably wouldn't have worked on TV, but works just fine in the comic medium.
So, Xander and Dawn are making no secret about their romance... sucking face right there in front of Slayers. I have a feeling Xander is completely clueless as to Buffy's feelings for him. He knows that she's a bit upset about something (his pointed "you used to think it was funny" comment), but I'll bet he thinks Buffy simply disapproves of him and Dawn, rather than being jealous.
We got an explanation for why the Slayers, and in particular Willow, lost their powers so quickly. Good.
The whole business of them figuring out about calling up the goddesses did seem a bit rushed, but again... the comic book medium requires a different pacing.
I believe I actually predicted that Monroe's werewolves would join up with Buffy & Co. Yay me, I finally called one right. Now it remains to be seen whether the wolves are even remotely trustworthy. I think there's a possibility they are secretly on Twilight's side and will turn on the Slayers when it will do the most damage.
The one thing that bothered me was Bay being out in the thick of the fighting and getting seriously wounded. She's got a baby. She shouldn't have been anywhere in the vicinity of the battle, much less in the middle of it. She should have taken Kelden and headed for the nearest village (wherever the Slayers have been going to get their black market weapons). And if she didn't want to go, Oz should have insisted, as should Buffy and Willow and the others.
I got the Twilight cover (it's what they put in my box at the store), but I may go back and snag a Jeanty cover later. I like his better. And Twilight's not even in the issue.
Gonna be a looong wait for #30.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 7, 2009 23:10:47 GMT -5
So, did a little research, and Remati is another name for Palden Lhamo, so whoever it was over at Whedonesque that pointed that out, kudos. And I'm pretty sure it was AC who pointed that out over here.
My detailed thoughts will be in the review that Emmie and I are co-writing, but the one thing that instantly jumped out at me was that Monroe is still alive. In #27, in the flashback, after Bay rips his throat out, Monroe's body is clearly seen limp on the ground. And Bay mentions her remorse at having killed him because she fears that might have made him a martyr. Well... what the heck is he doing alive and being all naked?
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Oct 7, 2009 23:30:05 GMT -5
So godesses coming out of the earth broke yor suspension of disbelief more then Giant Dawn versus Mechadawnzilla fighting in the middle of tokyo? Yes. Wolves at the Gate as a whole was more grounded (arguably). But the goddesses is the least of my criticisms. No, no, and no. It is 100% the plot. I am a comic geek, reader and writer-wise (thanks Emmie for interceding, btw!). Yeah, I think Dollhouse and Angel are great too. Dollhouse is definitely the LEAST great of all of those... but still great TV.
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Post by Emmie on Oct 8, 2009 0:15:42 GMT -5
Haha one argument I know wouldn't land with you, Pat, is that you don't like the medium. The medium?! NEVER!
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Post by krazyxxxdj on Oct 8, 2009 5:13:49 GMT -5
Can someone spoil me a lil bit please? I won't be able to pick it up until next week. What was this about the powers thing, not being able to get them back quick, etc? thank you in advance :-)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 8, 2009 7:39:36 GMT -5
My detailed thoughts will be in the review that Emmie and I are co-writing, but the one thing that instantly jumped out at me was that Monroe is still alive. In #27, in the flashback, after Bay rips his throat out, Monroe's body is clearly seen limp on the ground. And Bay mentions her remorse at having killed him because she fears that might have made him a martyr. Well... what the heck is he doing alive and being all naked? Yeah... I don't have that issue with me, but I could have sworn I remembered Monroe getting killed in the flashback. Hard to believe Jane, Joss and Scott would let a continuity error that big slip through in the course of one story. I can imagine goofing up with a story element from 6 years ago, but this... Maybe "Monroe" has become a title, taken by the leader of the werewolves in honor of the original. Yeah, that's it...
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collex
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 131
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Post by collex on Oct 8, 2009 8:14:07 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't know you wrote comics . It's just that the criticism you've made reminded me of another debate I had where the medium was the problem in fact. Thanks to Emmie too for interceding I didn't mention Angel in my list of great Joss work cause I never watched Angel. It did not air here in Quebec, except Season 1. Now, we have the DVD so maybe I'll buy them someday (when I'll have cash). You know what T.V. show I enjoy very much and that reminds me of how I enjoyed Joss Whedon other works? Not Dollhouse, but Bones. Maybe it's Boreanaz, but the characters are so loveable, it's pure magic. I'm sure Joss could write an episode of this show and it would be equaly awesome.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 8, 2009 8:27:16 GMT -5
Can someone spoil me a lil bit please? I won't be able to pick it up until next week. What was this about the powers thing, not being able to get them back quick, etc? thank you in advance :-) The magic, as Buffy discovers, is being sucked by the wrathful goddesses of Tibet. The chants they've been doing to help with the meditation are actually invocations; the girls were offering their power up to something. Bay says that it's a trade, the power goes to the goddesses, who in return protect them. Buffy decides she wants to cash in on the arrangement, and unleashes the goddesses. May be a little more spoilery than you wanted, but you weren't very specific about what you wanted to learn.
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Post by krazyxxxdj on Oct 8, 2009 10:35:39 GMT -5
thank you, no, that was perfect!
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Post by Mr. Savath Bunny on Oct 8, 2009 12:14:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I was a little pissed when Twilight - who is ON the cover - wasn't even IN this issue. Okay I get the set up of battle and again we're bringing up the fact that the government isn't fond of the slayers - but STILL! I think the cover for issue 31 would've worked better for issue 29 versus the freaking Twilight cover...... srsly guys.
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Post by Wyndam on Oct 8, 2009 13:21:38 GMT -5
I like that he was on the cover (and absent from the issue). It gives the entire thing a "puppet master watching from afar" type deal. That's actually a pretty cool concept, and I am glad the cover conveyed that, when looking at the issue in context.
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Post by NotaViking on Oct 8, 2009 20:08:55 GMT -5
patxshand - I'm glad someone else had as big a problem with this issue as I did. Personally though, I'm not enjoying the whole current storyline. Struggling to remember the last issue I liked, which is rather sad. De-powering the slayers was such a terrible idea right from the start that I was hoping that Buffy had some sort of secret plan. Nope. Buffy leads her army into what should have been a total massacre. Had they not accidentally traded for protection from those goddesses, they were screwed. Triumph not through skill or courage or intelligence, but through undeserved good fortune.
The sight of an army of slayers with guns and military helmets is really weird and uncomfortable. The show always avoided putting guns in the hands of the good guys. Any message is rather confused now. Frankly, the staging of the battle is laughable - Twilight's army comes right up beside the slayers as if tanks and rifles can't shoot more that 10 metres. Twilight's army in this case appears to be all human, yet there's no hesitation from Buffy & Co in killing them. Not even a comment. Admittedly this might be a kill or be killed scenario, but it's more a question as to why the writers put them in this situation and then didn't address the issue.
"The non-fighters are in the safest place in the centre of the building." Except for Oz and Bay of course, who just went out for a wander around the battlefield. And Buffy's reaction on seeing the bloodied pair is "Oz, Bay, I need to know something". Talk about cold. And then she then sends her little sister out into the war against trained soldiers and tanks.
And as wenxina has mentioned, there's the whole Monroe issue. When he popped up I was actually pretty pleased as it gave some more point to Oz's rather long back story in #27 and Monroe got to verbally put down Oz, who's holier-than-thou attitude has been rather grating. But being dead really should be an impediment to being alive. I can't buy Scott Allie's explanation that it was an issue of how it was drawn as the next panel is Bay saying "I probably made a mistake. I made him a martyr." The Warren / The First mistakes were bad enough, but this is a major continuity error over something that happened just two issues ago. Possibly the worst mistake in the entire run of Buffy on TV and in the comics.
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Post by wenxina on Oct 8, 2009 21:01:34 GMT -5
Guns=bad was never a real message though. Buffy did have an aversion to them. But when she claimed that "these things... never helpful", it wasn't because she was of the opinion that guns were bad, but rather that they were useless against vampires, which are her major problem. That Warren had one didn't mean that gun=bad. He was a misogynistic coward and used it for power. In this case, we're talking about girls who have been hunted for quite a while now. They're desperate. They gave up their power, hoping for a reprieve, only to be completely helpless against their enemies. Yes, it was a bad idea, but as I think Emmie argued elsewhere, they weren't thinking long-term here. They were more concerned about living than they were winning. And I think that's understandable. It's not the noble attitude that we're used to, but the odds are overwhelming right now.
As for Oz and Bay... some may be of the opinion that they shouldn't be fighting, but both are werewolves and therefore better equipped than any of the Slayers right now to be fighting. Stupid them for not actually undergoing the transformation. Buffy may have been cold, but she saw a possibility to save them all again. Sure, she could've been more gentle, but when people are getting blown up left and right, it's not a luxury that she had then.
All that said, I do agree that Scott's answer wasn't satisfactory at all. Yes, perhaps Monroe wasn't dead in that panel, but what Bay said about making him a martyr, that just read like he was dead.
EDIT: Corrected "never work" to "never helpful". Thanks Darth Rosenberg.
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Oct 9, 2009 0:14:45 GMT -5
@ Buffy & guns: She did say in one episode, pointing at a gun: "These things: never helpful." And it seemed to me she meant to concept of a gun as a thing to kill people, not that they were not helpful against vampires and demons.
I love your discussions and can't wait to get my own copy ...
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Post by Rebecca on Oct 9, 2009 0:20:25 GMT -5
All that said, I do agree that Scott's answer wasn't satisfactory at all. Yes, perhaps Monroe wasn't dead in that panel, but what Bay said about making him a martyr, that just read like he was dead. I read his answer, and now I've come up with a way to make it work: the image of Monroe dead was from Bay's recollection. She thought she killed him, she feels guilt over his "death", and therefore remembered him more bloody than he was--which the viewer then saw. Not bad editing... just bad remembering on Bay's part
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Sky
Innocent Bystander
Slayer[Mo0:15]
Posts: 17
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Post by Sky on Oct 9, 2009 2:24:12 GMT -5
This was actually one of the better issues for this arc, to me anyways, even if I had some issues with it. Mostly the Monroe thing that's already been mentioned. I can understand Buffy being cold, considering her people are dying around her left face, right face and front center and the Dander stuff. She didn't ask for this, none of them, they were just looking for a way to make themselves not stand out in the supernatural community. In a way though it seems like going to Oz was like a last minute thought. They had no where else to go so they go there and try to work with the sitch. I don't think Buffy was fully thinking about where & what she was possibly leading them into. It kind of reminded me of her brashness during "Dirty Girls".
You would have to think that there's some new, really strong Big Bad with his hands in almost everything that wants to wipe out you & everyone else whose joined the fight. I know your desperate to fallback & off the radar but to willingly de-power not only yourself but the dozens of other girls? When there's a super-strong lunatic with a stocking on his head flying around with an army of demons and military platoons? I kept thinking of Willow's line " Means well, not that bright." I wonder did she listen to any of the other girls ideas about how bad an idea this was? Or was it her way or the highway? You don't win battles, by practicing protracted wars & a good general, even upon retreat or peace, still needs to keep two steps ahead. Even at times of peace you still keep & functioning & sharp armory. They should have been getting even edged weapons at the least while they where raking and pushing boulders. Now instead of Twilight they'll probably have to deal with that goddess who might cause them more grief than him and his troops.
I'm really looking forward to next month.
I have a lot of questions that I need answers to and unfortunately I know I'm not going to get them.
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