|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 19, 2009 7:38:11 GMT -5
The only thing I wondered was where the baby was during the battle, I would've thought that he would've been with Bay somewhere safe but she was out in battle also. I wondered about that too. Hopefully the baby isn't in the "inner room" that Xander mentioned... that's not quite good enough when your building is under assault by a tank corps with air support. Especially considering it's a nice flammable wooden building.
|
|
stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
2nd in command to Mr pointy
"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
Posts: 676
|
Post by stakey on Oct 29, 2009 11:01:31 GMT -5
Finally got around to reading this issue.
Wish I hadn't bothered.
Thought it was one of the worst so far. I've never had any major problems with season 8 and Ill still be reading it in the coming months but I definately found this to be the issue that completely removed me from the believeability of the buffyverse.
Yes, its a supernatural based mythology so maybe believeability is the wrong word to use...but I found it to be the furtherest removed issue from the buffyverse. It felt like horrendously bad fanfic. BAD BAD fanfic.
The gang wearing camo- helmets...guns...torpedos. Killing humans left, right and centre.
I just really hated that.
I was reading Pats review on his blog and totally agreed with him on nearly all his points. The panels where they are handing out guns is just horrendously done. The tone should have been completely different. Completely.
And don't get me started on those goddesses. Not even worth bitching about, Im just going to pretend that panel never existed. Urgh.
Enjoyed the idea of Willow going off the rails at the beginning with anger but it was soooo over the top. With her dropping to her knees and all that, I just couldn't even slightly picture Willow doing it so melodramatically.
Issue 28 was brilliant though, so I just PRAYYYYYY Espenson (who had always been my favourite buffyverse writer outside of Joss) can pull it back. I've lost a serious about of love for her with her season 8 efforts however. But then 'briar rose' in Dollhouse was just fantastic that it repaired any damage she did to me with her Harmony season 8 issue. Hopefully issue 30 will make me forgive her for this poor effort.
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Oct 29, 2009 13:02:21 GMT -5
I read this issue yesterday, and then again today. The only thing I got out of it was that Buffy was legitimately angry about Dander. Everything else was a snoozefest. Definitely one of the worst issues to date (and I'm one of the select few that actually LIKED P&P ).
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 29, 2009 13:12:23 GMT -5
The gang wearing camo- helmets...guns...torpedos. Killing humans left, right and centre. I just really hated that. I would have hated it a whole lot more if they'd just stood there and taken it like a row of doormats. Anyone, even a Slayer, has the right to defend herself, with deadly force if necessary, even against humans. I would lose all respect for them, and for the story, if they didn't. And don't get me started on those goddesses. Not even worth bitching about, Im just going to pretend that panel never existed. Urgh. That will be difficult, since the next issue will feature them front and center throughout. I'm not sure what the problem is. It's a long-standing fact of the Buffyverse that beings like this exist. Big, weird monsters are kind of one of the hallmarks of it.
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Oct 29, 2009 13:31:18 GMT -5
^ I think the problem with both is how cheesily they were depicted. Buffy always had a corn factor, but it never looked as silly as it did in this issue. This should be serious. There are defenseless girls facing an army, terrifying, but all is bright colours. I find it really hard to care about the threat, which is a shame.
The scene where Xander is joking and handing out guns is innapropriatte. The gods are lame. I think a lot of it is down to the art. I'm not feeling the drama. ATF had epic panels toward the end and this arc just isn't in the same league at the moment.
|
|
Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
|
Post by Hallow Thorn on Oct 29, 2009 15:42:24 GMT -5
I'm with stakey and henzINNIT, the Gods, the art and issue (also the preview) are all kinds of lame. I hope I end up being wrong when I read #30.
|
|
stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
2nd in command to Mr pointy
"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
Posts: 676
|
Post by stakey on Oct 29, 2009 16:35:56 GMT -5
^ I think the problem with both is how cheesily they were depicted. Buffy always had a corn factor, but it never looked as silly as it did in this issue. This should be serious. There are defenseless girls facing an army, terrifying, but all is bright colours. I find it really hard to care about the threat, which is a shame. The scene where Xander is joking and handing out guns is innapropriatte. The gods are lame. I think a lot of it is down to the art. I'm not feeling the drama. ATF had epic panels toward the end and this arc just isn't in the same league at the moment. Exactly. Andrewc...about the goddesses. It wasnt the fact they were raise, I actually quite liked the idea of wrath goddesses being summoned and Buffy using her anger about Dander to raise them...it was Jeantys way of depicting them in the last panel. It just looked horrible. And I'm sorry but I still just can't deal with the whole helmets thing, they all just looked so cheesy and ridiculous. Yes, they should and need to protect themselves but it was all carried out so ridiculously and lacking the correct tone that in my eyes, it just wasn't pulled out. If I'd read the plot before reading the comic I can imagine it being quite effective, the scoobies having to resort to guns and protective gear and how helpless and self-pitying/ self-hating they'd be because of it but this just didn't happen. It was just a bit of a joke. Not how I thought the buffyverse would deal with this scenario at all. And Im hoping for issue 30 the goddesses will be drawn properly and not look like they've been transplanted out of a lammeeee anime.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 29, 2009 16:51:11 GMT -5
And Im hoping for issue 30 the goddesses will be drawn properly and not look like they've been transplanted out of a lammeeee anime. They're drawn pretty much exactly as they're depicted in Tibetan art. Granted, that may have been a mistake. It might have been more effective if Jeanty/Espenson had tried to depict the goddesses more as scary forces of nature than as literal pastel-colored giantesses.
|
|
stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
2nd in command to Mr pointy
"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
Posts: 676
|
Post by stakey on Oct 29, 2009 17:29:46 GMT -5
Yeh I think they should have dodged the wierd pastelly coloured appearance.
I love how one of the goddesses looks on the front cover of 31. Obviously thats Jo Chen and its far more detailed...but I think Jeanty should go for that approach.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Oct 29, 2009 17:36:37 GMT -5
Yeh I think they should have dodged the wierd pastelly coloured appearance. I love how one of the goddesses looks on the front cover of 31. Obviously thats Jo Chen and its far more detailed...but I think Jeanty should go for that approach. The color palette of S8 is a lot more saturated and vibrant than a lot of people would like. I actually like it, since it's kind of a throwback to how comics used to look. Fray was also very vibrantly colored. The style they're going for is definitely more cartoony, and that's just the way it is. The goddesses emerging from the earth is actually a play on perspective as well, and so the heads appear disproportionately bobblehead-like. And they are solidifying as they come out... they're still forming from the clouds of colored smoke. Chen's work is definitely more detailed, but that's expected on her painted covers. The interior art has never looked like the Chen's covers, so I don't understand why you're expecting it to now.
|
|
stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
2nd in command to Mr pointy
"Don't be a hero Scherbatsky." [Mo0:31]
Posts: 676
|
Post by stakey on Oct 29, 2009 17:41:53 GMT -5
Oh no its not that I expect the interior art to resemble jos covers...it was just that I thought Andrew thought I was saying I hate the design of the goddesses, which I dont as I think they look quite cool design-wise. But the way they were drawn in the last panel just looked kinda of odd.
I dont think that makes much sense. lol.
Basically, I just hope the goddesses in issue 30 look better than they did in the last panel of issue 29.
|
|
|
Post by NightlySorrow on Oct 29, 2009 21:26:37 GMT -5
Stakey, agree with everything you've said. The way the war is being depicted is absurd, it feels like a joke and the cartoonish tone doesn't help. This is supposed to be a big moment.
Issue 30 has the same goofy Archie comic look as issue 29 sadly and I wasn't impressed by the three page preview. Retreat was good it's first three issues, but issue four derailed everything. I don't know if issue 30 can recover. I have to go back and read old issues, because I don't remember the art being this colorful and bothersome to me.
Issue 29 gave us a werewolf that died, but then didn't really die, was against Oz, but quickly changes sides without much hesitation, helmets that make the slayers look dumb, and some really cartoonish gods.
Issue 30 in just three pages has given us a somewhat bad attempted fix with a certain character. I can't wait to see the final page of issue 30.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Oct 29, 2009 21:41:29 GMT -5
I don't know where this sudden swell of season 8 hate has been coming from, but I can say that those of you who don't like "Retreat" aren't likely to like the rest of the season.
This isn't "Predators & Prey", it's not filler. This is the meat of the season, right here. That's the way the storytelling style is going to be. Everything Jane is writing and Georges is drawing is 100% in accordance with Joss's story. It's not going to change much just because the person writing the script changes.
|
|
|
Post by NightlySorrow on Oct 29, 2009 21:56:03 GMT -5
Why wouldn't I like the rest of the season? I liked the first three issues of Retreat. They had some good character moments. The comics have ups and downs and I'm hoping for a up soon.
If you look at January through Oct., that's not the best of Buffy season 8 honestly with 5 issues of Predators and Prey not doing much other than outing vampires in a terrible way and making Dawn normal again by simply saying she was sorry. And then an empty useless one shot with Tales of course. Retreat is still better than Predators and Prey, I can say that much. Actually I can say that by a lot.
There was just something really great about the first 11 issues to me. I want to feel that again. The Long Way Home, The Chain, No Future For You, Anywhere But Here, and A Beautiful Sunset. That's a great run.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Oct 29, 2009 22:08:46 GMT -5
If you look at January through Oct., that's not the best of Buffy season 8 honestly with 5 issues of Predators and Prey not doing much other than outing vampires in a terrible way and making Dawn normal again by simply saying she was sorry. And then an empty useless one shot with Tales of course. Retreat is still better than Predators and Prey, I can say that much. Actually I can say that by a lot Whoa, the Tales oneshot wasn't empty and useless. And Dawn finally letting go of her guilt and owning responsibility for her own mistakes released the hex/curse/spell. No need to bash those developments so carelessly. All the negativity for the past issue has been pretty shocking to me. People seemed to be reacting to it in an overly exaggerated manner. I think Paul recently said how Pat's low rating was incredibly harsh in his review and I have to agree. Especially in light of the 10/10 for the Angel #26 release - well, it takes a lot to earn a perfect score and in the Whedonverse, that includes some thematic depth and meaning and originality. But I guess we all come into this with personal bias. I just think it's being taken to an extreme that goes beyond what's warranted.
|
|
|
Post by NightlySorrow on Oct 29, 2009 22:21:56 GMT -5
I didn't think the one shot added anything that substantial or interesting, and could easily be skipped without missing a beat. I only read it once, maybe I should read it again.
Of all the ways Dawn could potentially be turned back to normal, didn't you expect something more? A simple sorry? Dawn was a giant in March 2007, and we had to wait till May 2009 to find out how she would be fixed. And it was by saying sorry. I guess I expected too much. I just thought Dawn's transformations and how to fix it would be more important since it really went on a long time.
And I realize I've been negative lately. But I absolutely understand why people are so critical of issue 29 too. I wouldn't give it a 1 though, that's pretty harsh.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Oct 29, 2009 22:29:14 GMT -5
An important thing to note is that Tales of the Vampires is not essential reading for Season 8. It wasn't supposed to dramatically change anything about Season 8. It merely delved into the vampire mind. And frankly, I found it interesting in its depth and there was some standout art within the issue. the story is in accompaniment with Season 8, but its standalone and isn't included in the numbering of Season 8.
They did it so that Jeanty could stay on-track and keep up with the art schedule, but we'd still have something to read that month. So yeah, I definitely liked having it.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Oct 30, 2009 2:20:06 GMT -5
I didn't think the one shot added anything that substantial or interesting, and could easily be skipped without missing a beat. I only read it once, maybe I should read it again. Read it again. There are certain factions that deem the narrative of "Predators and Prey" to be too loose, and too much "tell" and not enough "show". The "Tales" oneshot actually showed what people wanted to see all along: how are civilians dealing with the whole vampire celebrity, how are Slayers actually viewed by the public, and finally, what are Slayers who are not in Buffy's army doing in light of recent developments. The narrative here is anything but empty; it's pretty freakin' dense. So dense that some of the people it was meant to appease don't fully appreciate it.
|
|
Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
|
Post by Darth Rosie on Oct 30, 2009 2:30:00 GMT -5
I was amazed by Tales of the Vampires. At first I didn't want to read it, but then I had an order out to my comic store and since I have to pay the postage anyway I thought, why not include "Tales". And I am more than glad. It added so much to my understanding of the season. And I thought the art was awsome.
As to Issue 29, the first few pages to me seemed a bit too didactic, like "look at this, war is bad, people are really going to die." Well, had they not lost slayers & witches & mystics before? I remember that horrifying frying of one of the witches, I believe in Issue 27. There are also some things I did not understand or consider as plotholes, as have been discussed already: the werewolves (their appearance was also quite short) and why Bay was in the field and where the baby was. The way Buffy treated wounded Bay was really harsh ...
But I did not find the issue terrible.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Oct 30, 2009 5:51:31 GMT -5
The narrative here is anything but empty; it's pretty freakin' dense. So dense that some of the people it was meant to appease don't fully appreciate it. Is that not a bit patronising? It kind of implies that it's the fault of the reader ,and not the storyteller, that people aren't liking the way the story is being told.
|
|