joony
Common Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 50
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Post by joony on Nov 26, 2009 20:59:34 GMT -5
I decided to re-read the whole arc before I made up my mind about how I feel. While I think Buffy's flying is an amazing direction to take it, I don't feel the arc is at all up to the standards I expect from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Not only was it atrocious to see slayers with guns, there were no sombre panels about this. Do we get slayers refusing because they're horrified? No, the potential for any exploration gets wasted by Munroe coming back for no reason I can see. It took a page that could have been used to explore the very difficult decision Buffy made. In fact it makes me root for Twilight because his forces are killing some of the werewolves that tried to kill Oz and Bay.
The guns don't even make sense in continuity. What happened to "these things? Never useful" and "no slayer carries a gun, ever"? Not to mention back in Season 7 Buffy took a load of unarmoured, greenhorn, potentials to the vineyard to face the original bad The First with nothing but medieval weaponry. Now her slayers are experienced, so why give them guns now and not in Dirty Girls?
Zoning in on Part 5: at first I liked the flying, Buffy being free, her power coming back stronger than before, really appealed. But the more I think about it, however right it seems for the character, it feels wrong for the season. Wrong for the mythos. Her forces are using guns and now she can fly, just like Twilight and his cronies. Buffy has things in common with a character who wants to de-power the slayers. A character who wants to undo the empowering message of Chosen. Flying is also a variation of the same tune that Season 8 should not have ever sung; Buffy, alone. Emotionally there is no reason for it, she shared her power with literally hundreds of girls, and as Xander said in ABS, gave them a purpose. Technically there is no reason either, way back in Season 2, Giles said she was now a slayer, not the slayer, the legacy passed to Kendra then Faith. Retreat as an arc feels like a Michael Bay remake of Empty Places and Touched. Buffy makes a bad leadership decision, loses her flock, then finds the strength to get them back. (Presumably, but I'm guessing her new powers will play a big part in the release of Twilight's prisoners). So, I'm not a fan of the flying. Not because it's too far removed from the show, because it for me it feels wrong.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 26, 2009 21:56:57 GMT -5
Why didn't Buffy give her girls guns back in S7? Because she didn't have any to give? When she took the Potentials to the vineyard, she was expecting to meet a preacher who mutilated one of her girls. A girl who wasn't especially strong, so why would she have thought that Caleb was superpowered?
I'm not a fan of guns. In the Buffyverse, or in real life. But, I also don't understand why anyone would expect girls to be all sad about being given the slightest chance of living through the ordeal that's plagued them for a while now. Twilight and the army, and whatever demon forces he has mustered on his side don't care if they kill any girls. In fact, there's a lot of killing happening. Sure, the Slayers could always take the higher road, but they're also human. Look at any group of persecuted individuals, and tell me that they're all willing to take the Gandhi philosophy. Just because they're Slayers doesn't mean that they need to take what humans throw at them. Buffy sure as hell didn't when the knights threatened the safety of her loved ones. People have argued that Buffy is a hypocrite, but I say nay. She gave them fair warning in "Checkpoint". She didn't fatally injure any of them, spared the life of the last one, and told him to stay away from her and her family. They didn't listen, and came back swinging harder. As a result, dead knights. And even then, the fatality count was absurdly low for the number of knights she dispatched. Same thing in "TLWH Pt 4". She told Satsu to go for the wound, unless people got stupid. She was saving Willow. But for those that want to see Slayers crying about having to defend themselves, perhaps the more appropriate demand would be to see some panels of soldiers crying as they lob napalm at a bunch of girls. Seriously...
S8 was always going to take the road towards reconciling "Chosen" with Fray. We don't know yet if it means permanent depowerment of the girls at this point. Buffy feeling alone isn't unexpected... just because she's surrounded by a bunch of Slayers doesn't mean that she isn't alone. She's the figurehead of the entire operation anyway. Her name is revered for the most part. She may have given the girls purpose, but that's not the same as saying she gave herself a bunch of companions. But back to the point of empowerment for a bit. The Slayer was never the feminist icon; it has always been Buffy. The girl, not the Slayer. That point is made over and over throughout the run of the series. It was Buffy who survived the Cruciamentum, not the Slayer. It was Buffy who came up with the plan for defeating the Mayor. It was Buffy who pretty much broke the endless nightmare/head trip in "Restless". It was Buffy who stopped the apocalypse in S5... being the Slayer wouldn't have stopped the gates from staying open... it was the Summers blood that did. It was also Buffy who came up with the plan for "Chosen". The feminist moment in "Chosen" wasn't so much about just empowering all the girls. It was about subverting the patriarchal system of "One girl", and being willing to share power in the spirit of sisterhood. That's a very feminist ideal. That the girls all gained power was a nifty thing too, and utterly necessary for the plot. If it's inevitable that the world will eventually end up with one Slayer again, in all the world, then I don't think that it's fair to say that "Chosen" is cheapened at all just yet. IMO, having empowerment to simply be about being a Slayer makes the message more elitist than it is feminist.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Nov 27, 2009 4:07:52 GMT -5
I second what Joony said. Slayers with guns is just an atrocious idea. I know that some people want to find them an excuse and will come up with awesome arguments to defend that... but it's just plain wrong. It sends the wrong message to the rest of the world. No wonder the world is turning against them. Now the Slayers have just become a terrorist group! They should have stuck to good ol' magick.
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Post by henzINNIT on Nov 27, 2009 6:24:38 GMT -5
I think finally taking up guns shows the urgency and the raised stakes of the situation, but I didn't like how it was hardly even acknowledged. We watched Buffy reject guns for 7 years on television so I think there should have been a lot more weight in their decision to use them. The arc started out quite downtrodden, but I didn't feel the horror toward the end when things were really looking bad.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Nov 27, 2009 10:12:39 GMT -5
The Slayers, like anyone else, have the right to do what they need to do to defend themselves.
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cant
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 32
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Post by cant on Nov 27, 2009 10:59:12 GMT -5
They are using guns because they are against guns.Buffy never used and against guns.But they can never defend themselves with medival weaponery from guns.They do what they have to.
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Post by wenxina on Nov 27, 2009 11:36:40 GMT -5
I second what Joony said. Slayers with guns is just an atrocious idea. I know that some people want to find them an excuse and will come up with awesome arguments to defend that... but it's just plain wrong. It sends the wrong message to the rest of the world. No wonder the world is turning against them. Now the Slayers have just become a terrorist group! They should have stuck to good ol' magick. Chronologically speaking, the Slayers were already considered a terrorist group before the start of S8. General Voll calls them a terrorist group in the first issue, setting up the whole deal. Whether or not they picked up arms didn't make a difference in "Retreat". And would the world really have viewed them differently, if they had just surrendered? If the world is okay with the public killing of a Slayer (Soledad), and is content to watch a Slayer drained while jeering (Alex, in the Tales... oneshot), and presumably ignore the fact that armies are blowing up girls... I don't think they care too much about the Slayers right now. The same lack of sympathy might arise, should Hitler suddenly be alive and well, and was charged for crimes against humanity. Buffy's view on guns hasn't changed. She didn't think a Slayer needed one in #29, but as Giles pointed out, she wasn't a Slayer anymore. And neither were the other girls. The military were massacring ordinary girls, and they didn't even blink. Why isn't anyone taking issue with that? Whether or not they knew the Slayers were depowered or not is besides the point. They were looking at these girls that looked human, and were human, and just blowing them up anyway. What does that say about humanity?
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Post by wenxina on Dec 1, 2009 19:43:05 GMT -5
Jane Espenson weighs in on her arc HERE.
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Post by Rebecca on Dec 10, 2009 15:10:44 GMT -5
Too bad the interview didn't go more in depth for Jane's writing. Seemed the entire article was centered on the last two panels--which, admittedly by Jane--weren't even written by her.
/sigh
At least we'll have much Joss goodness in the coming months. Only 13 days until Goddesses and Monsters hits shelves.
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Post by cheungcheung on Dec 25, 2009 11:39:06 GMT -5
when i saw the last panel, i thought Buffy became a giant (like dawn)
did not realize she was flying until i came into the forum....
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Post by faithswatcher on Dec 25, 2009 15:14:02 GMT -5
when i saw the last panel, i thought Buffy became a giant (like dawn) did not realize she was flying until i came into the forum.... I thought it was Buffy's dead body in the snow, and that was representive of Buffy's spirit (dead? Seperated from her body?) Then came on here (or maybe the letter page) and was like, oh... shes flying.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 7, 2010 15:18:52 GMT -5
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 7, 2010 16:02:28 GMT -5
That's about the same as the preliminary estimate from a month ago. I hope Brad Meltzer's name will attract some new fans... his Identity Crisis book was on a lot of "best of the decade" lists, and he probably has a group of fans that follow him wherever he goes. And of course, Joss's name on a book usually bumps up sales too. Most new readers of season 8 at this point are following along in the trade paperbacks, though, so there probably won't be any significant increase in sales for the monthly issues from here on out.
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Post by jakjakattack05 on Oct 13, 2010 21:11:55 GMT -5
not all of the slayers are at in tibet. so after they lose their powers and need them again why dont they call the rest of them to help?
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