Alexandra
Common Vampire
... and it's beginning to snow![Mo0:29]
Posts: 53
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Post by Alexandra on Aug 20, 2009 9:35:17 GMT -5
Oh, come on. We've seen Spike doing good things before and I'm pretty sure vampires can tell the difference between good and bad. Conscience just doesn't bother them when it comes to doing the bad. In theory. Spike obviously realized what he did just a second after, that he seriously hurt the woman he loved, and that's why he left to get a soul. If he couldn't tell it was wrong, he wouldn't do that, right? Damn, he was the first vampire who did it, who voluntarily got a soul. He needed a pretty strong motive to do something like that.
Plus, I think that we should look at the very act of Spike's rape attempt in a "woman-man" way, not a "Slayer-vampire without a soul" way. Because that is what it was at the moment.
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Reika
Innocent Bystander
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Post by Reika on Aug 20, 2009 13:16:28 GMT -5
I agree with Alexandra here, and I don't think we should compare both.
Even though Xander hadn't lost his memories of the past occurrences after being possessed, he still wasn't responsible for his actions, the hyaena spirit was. Although, I do think the fact he attacked Buffy was because deep down he had those feelings for her, so the hyaena spirit took them a little too far, as he was still himself, but with the instincts of a carnivorous mammal. That's probably also why those four students ate Principal Flutie, because they weren't fond of him to begin with, so the hyaena spirit also worked with that without seeing any boundaries. It was basic animal instinct: go after the mate you want, and kill/eat your enemy.
As for Spike, if you meant William shouldn't be held responsible for Spike's actions, the demon should, then I'm still skeptical on that one; same would go for Angel and Angelus's actions, and any other vampire.
That subject alone also brings too much questions and contradicting thoughts into account, such as the complications and the complex reasonings behind a vampire's actions. Why does the soul suffer if it's the vampire, the demon inside, the one who's done those actions? Is it because of the pattern there that's still left after the person is turned, as the vampire still holds all of the person's past memories, thoughts and mannerisms? Or is it because when we look at a vampire, we're basically not seeing a demon that took residence in that person's body, as was made to believe and referred to in BtVS, but rather we see that person at their worst, as if that person, and not a demon, had lost their conscious and all good inside of them.
Most people seem to believe that's something along those lines, that's why they think Spike was still capable of doing good, because of the type of person William was, and why Angelus wasn't, because of Liam.
After everything Angel (or Liam, I guess) went through after he received his soul, and how he went through a whole phase of repentance, then after he met Buffy and moved to L.A. he fought for his own redemption, you'd think Angel wouldn't have to pay anymore for Angelus's actions, but that's the thing: that proves that it isn't actually a demon that takes place in the person's body, it's that person that becomes a demon. I don't believe the person's soul is 'saved' after they're sired. That wouldn't make sense. For a random demon to simply enter that person's body and there the demon has already the past memories/mannerisms of that person and that's why the demon would know of certain things is a most subtle way to look at it.
But, at the same time, it'd bring us to Spike's actions after he received his soul: he didn't think he needed to redeem himself, because he didn't hold himself responsible for what soulless Spike had done. It's as if his soul had left after he had been sired, and came back after he fought for it -- so he simply remembered everything that the demon had done, but didn't hold himself responsible for its actions. And aren't all demons soulless to begin with? But aren't there good demons nevertheless, such as Clem, Whistler, et cetera, that didn't feel the need to do bad things. But if we look at it from this point, isn't the soul a reflection of the conscious, so how would it be possible?
On that same note, we'd also be left with Becoming, Part II: after Buffy stabbed Angel, the soul seemed to suffer for Angelus's actions, and not the demon itself. Is that simply because at that same moment the spell had been reversed Angel had returned, thus he was the one present there and not the demon, so Acathla simply didn't care, took the one who was in front of it to hell? But that still wouldn't make sense. Once you die, it doesn't matter how you die, your soul goes to the place it deserves -- not even your body has to suffer, it's just your 'conscious'. Such as Buffy in The Gift, even her friends thought because of the type of death she had, that her soul would be trapped somewhere, but that's basically not how it works. So, would this mean in fact that Angel was responsible for Angelus's actions because they were one and the same, thus he suffered for a reason? That thought alone would bring many conflicting thoughts to Spike's actions after he received his soul -- did he simply think it was a waste of time to try to repent for what he did whilst soulless, did he truly not hold himself responsible, even though his conscious still affected him, or is it something else, something more?
I want to say that both Angel and Spike aren't responsible and shouldn't be held responsible for their actions when soulless, but at the same time that doesn't make too much sense to me. We can all look at this from many angles and discuss this subject thoroughly, but bottom line is, if the writers offerred us Spike with all his complexity, a soulless being able to do good and actually have a conscious whenever he felt like using it, then I assume we should be able to judge him accordingly. And at the same time, we shouldn't distance Spike from other vampires just because he chose to do good, think of him as a special case, as that wouldn't be fair. As we remember correctly, vampires can love (if simply not wisely). And isn't love one of the most, if not the most, powerful feeling in the world that one could experience?
When Spike arrived at his crypt after having tried to rape Buffy and being stopped by her, his emotions seemed all over the place, and you could see the ambivalence of his feelings here. At one point his face seems masked in regret and shame, when he's babbbling on he states, "What have I done?", then he looks rather bemused while frowing and says, "Why didn't I do it?" You can clearly see how his action was equivocal to himself and how his feelings were ambiguous, as he soon says afterwards, "What has she done to me?" It was man/demon/lover, respectively, all trying to reason in one mind what he had done.
I do agree with Alexandra that, at the same time, if Spike hadn't done what he did, he probably would had never gone after his soul. His love along with regret and mixed emotions made him seek out his soul.
I know it was for the sake of misleading the audience, but I still take Spike's words before he got on his motorcycle and afterwards at face value. Before he leaves, Spike says, "Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change." The depth of what he is feeling is clear here. He wants her to pay for making him feel regret, when he's a demon and shouldn't need to feel that; pay for making him do what he's about to do, because, at far as it goes, the demon part of him is still in control here, and it knows if Spike manages to get his soul, its control will be over; he also thinks that him acquiring his soul back will be enough to make everything right, to erase what he had done to her, make Buffy think he is worthy of her. Same goes for when he says that, "Bitch is gonna see a change." Him referring to her that way is such a oxymoron, because, to him, he's doing that for her. The paradox present is evident here, he's hating her for what he's about to do because he is still a soulless demon here, but, at the same time, that same soulless demon loves her. That was the only way that Spike was capable of getting back his soul, not because he had a little bit of good left in him, that wouldn't be enough, but because the bad part of him loved her.
This subject in itself is a tricky one and you can trip on your own words trying to make sense of it, or make out what to believe and what to take from this, but this is pretty much how I see it. Spike, even though soulless, and any other demon/vampire is responsible for their actions... although, there are, at the same time, matters that should be taken into account as everything isn't just black and white when it comes to this.
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Alexandra
Common Vampire
... and it's beginning to snow![Mo0:29]
Posts: 53
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Post by Alexandra on Aug 20, 2009 15:43:34 GMT -5
You made some very interesting points, Reika, thank you! But, at the same time, it'd bring us to Spike's actions after he received his soul: he didn't think he needed to redeem himself, because he didn't hold himself responsible for what soulless Spike had done. It's as if his soul had left after he had been sired, and came back after he fought for it -- so he simply remembered everything that the demon had done, but didn't hold himself responsible for its actions. Didn't he, though? Even after he got his soul? Yes, the journey of getting his soul back itself was presented as an act of redemption. And it seems like he did blame his former self for the attempted rape, but at the same time his living in the basement and for example this... SPIKE: You go off and try to wall up the bad spots, put your heart back in where it fell out, and you call yourself finished, but you're not. You're worse than ever, you are. SPIKE: I should hide, hide from you. Hide my face. You know what I did. ... might suggest that he, his present self, doesn't feel completely guiltless. Don't you think? |
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gumgnome
Junior Vampire Slayer
Who has got the button?
Get out of my BRAIN![Mo0:1]
Posts: 970
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Post by gumgnome on Aug 21, 2009 4:20:58 GMT -5
I think that this is a very complex question that doesn't have a very satisfying answer. Joss almost certainly made the decision to make vampires soulless monsters so that the audience wouldn't think of Buffy as a serial killer, but as a black-and-white hero, killing things that clearly shouldn't exist. I think this means that we are meant to think that it is the demon in control of the actions of the vampire and the person inside has no say in the matter. But this raises, as Reika says, the problems: a) Angel shouldn't have to repent for the sins that Angelus committed - he wasn't responsible. b) Spike shouldn't be able to reform until he gets his soul back. Looking at the first, I think it's the most clear cut contradiction. There's an episode of the podcast, Buffycast, devoted to this question. You can listen to it here (episode 8, although they're all masterful): buffycast.libsyn.com/Angel is, in no way, responsible for the actions that Angelus commits. Even though he can remember doing evil deeds, and even enjoying them, it's akin to someone using a mind-control device on you and forcing you to shoot all the people in your neighbourhood. When the mind-control device were removed, would you feel responsible for what had happened? Hell no, you'd find whoever used the device and bring them to justice. The demon who committed those acts may well still be inside Angel, but this means that his primary responsibilty should be to keep the demon locked away, not atone for its actions. The second point is harder to answer, because we have no prior experience of how a demon can change. When its natural outlets (killing and maiming) are cut off, maybe the demon could actually change. This still seems like a stretch to me, because it is, by definition, evil, but there's more grounds for argument there, I think, than with the Angel issue. In the end, though, I do think we need to accept these incontinuities as plot devices. Clearly, most of the vampires on the show are stake-fodder and need to be eliminated without any conscience getting in the way, for Buffy or for the audience. But, in a show about vampires, you're almost certainly going to go down the route of 'good' vampires who fight for the good guys. You can't have both and explain it totally logically, so we'll just have to accept it, in my opinion. |
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Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
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Post by Saturn 5 on Aug 21, 2009 13:26:09 GMT -5
I think Spike loves Buffy and does all the good he does for her sake. But he genuinely doesn't do good for it's own sake, the demon eggs in As You Were, his remark about 'a lot of effort for people who aren't us' and his inability to understand why Buffy still cares about killing Katrina even after he's disposed of the body.
That's why it's so important that Spike get's his soul back and get's it back through choice unlike Angel who has it forced upon him.
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Reika
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 30
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Post by Reika on Aug 21, 2009 13:53:27 GMT -5
[...] ... might suggest that he, his present self, doesn't feel completely guiltless. Don't you think? Yes, that's true, I do think so. I guess I was just comparing his redemption to Angel's, or at least his actions after he got his soul. Angel, when he received his soul, regretted his past so much that he wasted away almost a century, trying to rid himself of what he had done -- not quite beginning his journey through redemption, but feeling so regretful of his past that he takes years to fully live with his soul and with the remorse of what he had done. Spike, while he did seem overwhelmed by remorse as well, sending him almost completely over the top, making him spend weeks in that basement because he couldn't quite live with what he had done, seems to fully realize sooner than Angel did that he can fight for his redemption, and at the same time, he won't blame himself to the point of going crazy any longer. You can't have both and explain it totally logically, so we'll just have to accept it, in my opinion. I agree with that. That's why I mentioned that this subject is a tricky one. As you mentioned, if we do not blame them for their actions, it raises the question as to why they feel the need to redeem for somethig they hadn't done and why we want that as well. But to think that Spike, after he got his soul, is responsible for what soulless Spike did because he had chosen to do good before and had somewhat of a conscious when it came to his actions, while Angel isn't, because Angelus was the paragon of evil, isn't a rather fair way to look at it. Even though the writers themselves seem to put walls between their demon selves, there will always be a pattern here. And, at the same time, yes, blaming them completely for their actions isn't a fair way to look at it either. When it all comes down to it, we're basically to believe this: It'd still bring the inconsistencies that I mentioned before, though, such as Angel's soul actually sufferring for what Angelus had done in Becoming, Part II -- he was the one who had to suffer in a hell dimension, when his soul should be cleansed of any responsibilities concerning what the demon had done. And, at the same time, what you mentioned about Joss purposefully wanting to emphasise on the fact that they're soulless beings does also contradict the notion that they're basically the same person but at their worst. Bottom line is, there still is a link here; as Darla stated in the flashback of Prodigal, "What we once were informed all that we become." We could very well look at this from this point: It does make quite a lot of sense. Angel isn't like Liam, be it because of everything that Angelus had done and the memory of it that changed him so much or something else. Same goes for Spike, after he received his soul, he wasn't that shy, poet anymore, he was a mixture of who he had become when soulless with who he was when human. It shows us that the pattern from human, to soulless demon, to demon with a soul is very much strong here. So basically, yes, there will be contradicting storylines throughout the show and inconsistencies to either side we choose, as it is a rather complex subject to begin with that we're dealing with here that never had any real conclusive answers to. Thanks, btw, I'll take a look at that link. [The paragraphs I quoted are from a thesis, if anyone's interested in taking a look at it: etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0004891/pearl_m.pdf] |
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
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Post by Smashed on Aug 21, 2009 20:13:23 GMT -5
I think the consensus is Buffy get's sexually assaulted 7 times in the course of the series; 1. By possessed Xander in The Pack (amazed she never brought that up when they argue over Spike attacking her in season 6/7) 2. Pirate Larry trying to force himself on her in Halloween (shiver me timber?) 3. By Larry again copping a feel in Phases (although we now know it's all a show) 4. Steroid pumped Cam trying to force himself upon her in Go Fish so she breaks his nose (good for her!) 5. And the rest of the swimteam are in the process of gangraping her at the end of the same episode before Xander rescues her. The coach says 'Boys have other needs' and Buffy remarks that her already doubtful reputation will be further sullied when it's revealed that she's 'done it with the entire swimteam'. 6. Spike and Buffy in Seeing Red 7. Buffy getting 'knocked up' by the Shadowman's pet demon in Get It Done You could also argue that The Master does sexually assault Buffy, he overpowers her and gains pleasure from penetrating her body (with his fangs). People have said Giles drugging Buffy in Halloween is tantamount to child abuse, her father figure drugs her and penetrates her body with the needle. What do Buffy and Dracula get up to after the fadeout and is it her choice or thrall or a combination of the two? And Spike feels Buffy up at the Bronze during Triangle. As for other characters Faith-as-Buffy essentially rapes Riley in Who are you? If Willow and Tara have sex in OMWF after Willow does the forgetting spell on her in the previous episode that could be construed as rape? And Cordy get's knocked up three seperate times by demons? And let's not even start with the age of consent, Buffy/Angel, Buffy/RJ etc I don't think that the metaphorical "rape" counts. It's a metaphor. It's not rape. Yeah, you could argue that The Master's biting, Buffy in Dracula's thrall, hell, even Angel in Grad. Day pt.2 when he wouldn't let go are METAPHORICAL rape. I think the same goes for the shadow men. Thank you for the list, I guess I looked over quite a few moments, as they were written off as passive mentions. And I honestly believe that if the swimteam had begun to gangrape her, it wouldn't have been another passive reference like the other moments. Getting gangraped by fish monsters doesn't equate to getting your ass grabbed by a stranger.  |
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Saturn 5
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Saturn 5 on Aug 22, 2009 4:46:22 GMT -5
I think the consensus is Buffy get's sexually assaulted 7 times in the course of the series; 1. By possessed Xander in The Pack (amazed she never brought that up when they argue over Spike attacking her in season 6/7) 2. Pirate Larry trying to force himself on her in Halloween (shiver me timber?) 3. By Larry again copping a feel in Phases (although we now know it's all a show) 4. Steroid pumped Cam trying to force himself upon her in Go Fish so she breaks his nose (good for her!) 5. And the rest of the swimteam are in the process of gangraping her at the end of the same episode before Xander rescues her. The coach says 'Boys have other needs' and Buffy remarks that her already doubtful reputation will be further sullied when it's revealed that she's 'done it with the entire swimteam'. 6. Spike and Buffy in Seeing Red 7. Buffy getting 'knocked up' by the Shadowman's pet demon in Get It Done You could also argue that The Master does sexually assault Buffy, he overpowers her and gains pleasure from penetrating her body (with his fangs). People have said Giles drugging Buffy in Halloween is tantamount to child abuse, her father figure drugs her and penetrates her body with the needle. What do Buffy and Dracula get up to after the fadeout and is it her choice or thrall or a combination of the two? And Spike feels Buffy up at the Bronze during Triangle. As for other characters Faith-as-Buffy essentially rapes Riley in Who are you? If Willow and Tara have sex in OMWF after Willow does the forgetting spell on her in the previous episode that could be construed as rape? And Cordy get's knocked up three seperate times by demons? And let's not even start with the age of consent, Buffy/Angel, Buffy/RJ etc I don't think that the metaphorical "rape" counts. It's a metaphor. It's not rape. Yeah, you could argue that The Master's biting, Buffy in Dracula's thrall, hell, even Angel in Grad. Day pt.2 when he wouldn't let go are METAPHORICAL rape. I think the same goes for the shadow men. Thank you for the list, I guess I looked over quite a few moments, as they were written off as passive mentions. And I honestly believe that if the swimteam had begun to gangrape her, it wouldn't have been another passive reference like the other moments. Getting gangraped by fish monsters doesn't equate to getting your ass grabbed by a stranger. I agree except that we don't know if Drac and Buffy did more than just biting (or indeed Drac/Joyce?). As for Buffy and the Shadowman's demon you should watch the scene, Buffy gasping, moaning writhing and straining at her chains, it really doesn't need much interpretation |
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