Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Dec 15, 2009 0:37:34 GMT -5
I agree with Buffyfan21 here. Tara is one for the quiet grief. She has never used magic out of anger.
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Post by lightandmagic on Dec 15, 2009 22:52:19 GMT -5
As a particular vengeful, and not necessarily most moral person, I am going to go with a resounding yes, she is justified.
I don't blame her at all for her actions, he killed the person she loves more than anything, nearly murdered her best friend, and also killed his ex girlfriend in cold blood, which she eventually learned when she caught up to him.
I would love to think ideally of society, he's in prison, he's doing his time. But Warren was just an awful person. And if I was put in Willow's position, I probably would have tried to wreak the same vengeance upon him. I was on her, and Dawn's, side of the argument for the death of Warren rather than Buffy's. I think her actions of killing Warren are morally sound, just not necessarily ethical. The difference being, in my opinion at least, morals are your personal belief of what is right and wrong, killing Warren was ultimately better for society in my opinion, and ethics being what is right and wrong as deemed by society, so in this case, murder, which is obviously considered inappropriate.
I think everyone will disagree with me, but I support her initial actions of killing Warren. Definitely not her actions of trying to kill the other two cause they were definitely not responsible.
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Dec 16, 2009 1:06:07 GMT -5
As a particular vengeful, and not necessarily most moral person, I am going to go with a resounding yes, she is justified. Loving your take on this issue, even if I do not agree. I just find it great that somebody tries to justify Willow's initial actions and I believe you have an excellent point - Karma! |
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Post by buffyfan21 on Dec 16, 2009 12:15:13 GMT -5
As a particular vengeful, and not necessarily most moral person, I am going to go with a resounding yes, she is justified. Loving your take on this issue, even if I do not agree. I just find it great that somebody tries to justify Willow's initial actions and I believe you have an excellent point - Karma! Same here!  |
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Post by joxerlives on Dec 16, 2009 16:48:14 GMT -5
Killing him in the heat of anger is one thing, the torture is what I really have a problem with (and I don't have a problem with various Scoobs torturing for info over the years but for fun/revenge is different)
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Post by dragonweaver on Dec 17, 2009 9:57:42 GMT -5
Okay I'm going to get all analytical for a moment.
The question you posed is a contradiction my opinion. For Willow to be justified in her actions against Warren she would have to be acting with in the boundaries of justice. Basically killing Warren would have to of been the proper justice & punishment for him killing Tara. Now my father is a lawyer and he tells me all the time that justice can only be achieved when a person or group of people, in a reasoned and clear state of mind, decided on an appropriate conclusion based on the facts. Willow was obviously coming from a place of grief and pain and in no position to determine what the appropriate course of action should be. As you stated she was out for revenge...an eye for an eye...and that is not justice and therefore it could never be justified.
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hellmouth
Common Vampire
Banner by Rebecca[Mo0:0]
Posts: 64
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Post by hellmouth on Dec 17, 2009 10:45:38 GMT -5
Okay I'm going to get all analytical for a moment. The question you posed is a contradiction my opinion. For Willow to be justified in her actions against Warren she would have to be acting with in the boundaries of justice. dragonweaver has a good point. I think that Willow was not out for justice, she was out for revenge. In that case, it is difficult for me to say she was "justified". That being said, I would have done the same thing Willow did, although I am more partial to green crayons, not yellow. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 17, 2009 14:19:16 GMT -5
For those who say things like 'Revenge is never ok' or whatever, I defy you to stand in front of someone who just killed the person you love most in the world, with a gun in your hand and do nothing.
I do not believe in killing, but I am watching the Illyria arc in Angel and after watching A Hole in the World and Shells (just finished watching Shells), if I were Wes it would have taken all my strength not to shoot Knox.
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Post by lightandmagic on Dec 17, 2009 17:43:25 GMT -5
Okay I'm going to get all analytical for a moment. The question you posed is a contradiction my opinion. For Willow to be justified in her actions against Warren she would have to be acting with in the boundaries of justice. Basically killing Warren would have to of been the proper justice & punishment for him killing Tara. Now my father is a lawyer and he tells me all the time that justice can only be achieved when a person or group of people, in a reasoned and clear state of mind, decided on an appropriate conclusion based on the facts. Willow was obviously coming from a place of grief and pain and in no position to determine what the appropriate course of action should be. As you stated she was out for revenge...an eye for an eye...and that is not justice and therefore it could never be justified. That's the legal standpoint. The legality of someone's actions does not necessarily mean they are amoral and unjustified actions. And I don't think in order for someone to justify their actions they have to work in the limits of what society's view of justice is. The best example I can give is an example from a detective fiction book I read, I won't say which one so I don't spoil the story, and I feel it serves this topic well as I wrote an essay about society vs personal morality/justice within detective fiction. Without further ado: In this story, the detective is hired by a man to discover why his son killed himself. She eventually discovers that the son was not only murdered, but when he originally died it was meant to look like a suicide by dressing him up, well, embarrassingly. Someone eventually discovered him and before the police came made him look regular again so that his final moments wouldn't be laughed at. It is eventually discovered by the detective that it was the farther, the man who originally hired them, that murdered his son and made it more embarrassing than it had to be. The father points out that due to his connections and the general lack of evidence, there is no way he would be convicted for these crimes. Unfortunately for him, the mother of the son happens to hear this and kills the man who murdered their son. The detective helps the mother than cover up the murder and makes it look like a suicide. From a legal point of view, the mother and the detective both committed crimes, both not in a reasoned state of mind. But as the detective points out, is it worth it for a generally harmless woman to go to jail for someone who murdered his own son, embarrassingly no less, and feels absolutely no remorse for it? Is it worth it for the detective to go to jail for helping cover up a crime, when for all intents and purposes, the only person who was hurt from it was the murderer himself? In terms of fiction, and in some cases real life, moral quandaries often can and do not fit into society's view of established justice. It does not mean that the actions they have taken are amoral or unjustified. |
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Dec 17, 2009 18:10:19 GMT -5
For those who say things like 'Revenge is never ok' or whatever, I defy you to stand in front of someone who just killed the person you love most in the world, with a gun in your hand and do nothing. I do not believe in killing, but I am watching the Illyria arc in Angel and after watching A Hole in the World and Shells (just finished watching Shells), if I were Wes it would have taken all my strength not to shoot Knox. If I were in that situation, I just might kill them. But that doesn't make it right. And I'm saying that as a very vengeful person. Even though I may take part in revenge, it's still not okay. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 17, 2009 19:02:51 GMT -5
For those who say things like 'Revenge is never ok' or whatever, I defy you to stand in front of someone who just killed the person you love most in the world, with a gun in your hand and do nothing. I do not believe in killing, but I am watching the Illyria arc in Angel and after watching A Hole in the World and Shells (just finished watching Shells), if I were Wes it would have taken all my strength not to shoot Knox. If I were in that situation, I just might kill them. But that doesn't make it right. And I'm saying that as a very vengeful person. Even though I may take part in revenge, it's still not okay. The world's an imperfect place. To some, getting rid of a scumbag like Warren is fair. |
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Post by dragonweaver on Dec 17, 2009 23:11:25 GMT -5
For those who say things like 'Revenge is never ok' or whatever, I defy you to stand in front of someone who just killed the person you love most in the world, with a gun in your hand and do nothing. That's the point. Anyone having witnessed the murder of a loved one would be devastated and not capable of determining right from wrong. No one's saying that Warren didn't deserve to be punished or that Willow wasn't sympathetic in her actions. Personally I gained satisfaction from Warren's demise...but in the end Willow still crossed a line. Her grief and pain is no excuse for killing Warren anymore than Warren's wounded pride is an excuse for shooting Buffy and killing Tara. That's the legal standpoint. The legality of someone's actions does not necessarily mean they are amoral and unjustified actions. And I don't think in order for someone to justify their actions they have to work in the limits of what society's view of justice is. It's true that the definition of justice has differed from century to century and culture to culture, but my statement wasn't meant to be about the legality of Willow's actions. For me, morally, she was wrong. She took matters into her own hands. She didn't care about Warren's motives, didn't care that Tara's death was an accident, and she certainly didn't kill him to protect herself or her friends. The only thing she achieved in killing him was that she managed to sink to his level. My point is clear...vengeance and justice do not go together and you can't have both. I feel sorry for her, I feel sympathetic for her and can understand where she was coming from...but to judge without focus and to kill without weighing the impact is heading down dangerous path; not a righteous one. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 18, 2009 6:14:56 GMT -5
For those who say things like 'Revenge is never ok' or whatever, I defy you to stand in front of someone who just killed the person you love most in the world, with a gun in your hand and do nothing. That's the point. Anyone having witnessed the murder of a loved one would be devastated and not capable of determining right from wrong. No one's saying that Warren didn't deserve to be punished or that Willow wasn't sympathetic in her actions. Personally I gained satisfaction from Warren's demise...but in the end Willow still crossed a line. Her grief and pain is no excuse for killing Warren anymore than Warren's wounded pride is an excuse for shooting Buffy and killing Tara. She had more of an excuse to kill than Warren did. Usually I would say that there's never an excuse to kill, but when someone hurts the ones you love, that's a pretty good excuse right there imo. Warren was the human version of Caleb. I don't think that Willow crossed the line by killing him, but I think she did by torturing him. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Dec 18, 2009 8:47:07 GMT -5
It's not just about whether the guy had it coming though is it? It's about whether anyone should ever have the right to kill someone else.
I think she crossed the line when she tracked him down and murdered him; I find it hard to justify taking another person's life unless you had to to stay alive.
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Hallow Thorn
Bad Ass Wicca
Oh and You're Welcome
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 2,306
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Dec 18, 2009 15:05:07 GMT -5
I am okay with it... he took away the life and the 'world' of the woman she loved and he would have only become more powerful and evil. I just wish she didn't become evil and tried to end the world for man kind and become worse than Warren, and I think that Willow need to answer for her crimes.
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