Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 7, 2009 0:51:36 GMT -5
If a vampire did not have a soul, but still chose not to kill then NO. I would not kill it, because thats genocide and thats where Buffy draws the line. She kills the demons and baddies who threaten mankind.
So its bad that a mother wanted to protect her son?
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Post by wenxina on Jun 7, 2009 7:39:33 GMT -5
So its bad that a mother wanted to protect her son? No, it's not bad, but it speaks of how pervasive the message that "vampires are cool" now is. If the older generations are hip with the trends... it's gotta be a pretty popular message. I mean, where is the parental outrage that arose when Britney did her first Rolling Stone cover? The one with the Teletubbies. I also think that the bit about how your child is now a soulless beast got left out of the public service announcement.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 7, 2009 8:36:30 GMT -5
Is it still her son, though? Does a person's identity travel along with his soul, and is it lost when a person becomes a vampire?
It's an unclear question in the Buffyverse. When a person becomes a vampire, his soul leaves his body and is replaced by a demon spirit. But that demon spirit has all the person's memories and most of his personality traits, just twisted toward evil.
Is a vampire in any way the same person as his previous mortal self? And when does the moral question arise as to whether dusting a vampire is a bad thing... even murder?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 7, 2009 21:09:11 GMT -5
Anybody know why the Scott Allie Q&A thread has been locked?
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Post by Emmie on Jun 7, 2009 21:26:22 GMT -5
Anybody know why the Scott Allie Q&A thread has been locked? Since Scott has been busy traveling, I locked the Q&A until we're caught up. Plus...it's Sunday. The Q&A has been open for 5 days. The longest it's ever been open before. Time to shut her down.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 7, 2009 21:41:19 GMT -5
Since Scott has been busy traveling, I locked the Q&A until we're caught up. Plus...it's Sunday. The Q&A has been open for 5 days. The longest it's ever been open before. Time to shut her down. Poop. I had one more question I wanted to ask.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 8, 2009 12:54:37 GMT -5
So its bad that a mother wanted to protect her son? No, it's not bad, but it speaks of how pervasive the message that "vampires are cool" now is. If the older generations are hip with the trends... it's gotta be a pretty popular message. I mean, where is the parental outrage that arose when Britney did her first Rolling Stone cover? The one with the Teletubbies. I also think that the bit about how your child is now a soulless beast got left out of the public service announcement. True, but hopefully this will be explained soon. However, the public doesnt know that vampires are soulless creatures who go around murdering people. It seems the vamps are living it up with their new popularity and not murdering considering if they do, POOF there goes their image.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 8, 2009 13:00:57 GMT -5
True, but hopefully this will be explained soon. However, the public doesnt know that vampires are soulless creatures who go around murdering people. It seems the vamps are living it up with their new popularity and not murdering considering if they do, POOF there goes their image. That's the problem. Having no sense of morality, very little sense of restraint and not much concept of being a "team player," they can't all be deciding not to murder. For every Jacob who decides not to murder his own mother, there's probably one who makes the opposite decision. Of course, if a vampire turns each person he chooses to kill, it doesn't look like there's been any murder committed at all. The person is still there... they're just a vampire now. When Jacob told his mother he was a vampire, he got less of a response than if he said he'd gotten a tattoo or a speeding ticket. Still... I'm convinced there's some sort of global magic spell that's causing people to simply not think to question the new world order.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 8, 2009 13:18:43 GMT -5
That's the problem. Having no sense of morality, very little sense of restraint and not much concept of being a "team player," they can't all be deciding not to murder. For every Jacob who decides not to murder his own mother, there's probably one who makes the opposite decision. Well... the vamps are being pretty careful not to kill though. They understand that their popularity hinges on the misconception that vampires are benign but misunderstood beings. Though... if the number of homeless people suddenly drops precipitously, I doubt it'll have anything to do with an improving economy... Of course, if a vampire turns each person he chooses to kill, it doesn't look like there's been any murder committed at all. The person is still there... they're just a vampire now. When Jacob told his mother he was a vampire, he got less of a response than if he said he'd gotten a tattoo or a speeding ticket. Heck, it got less of a response than when Buffy "came out" to Joyce about being the Slayer.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 8, 2009 13:39:52 GMT -5
Well... the vamps are being pretty careful not to kill though. They understand that their popularity hinges on the misconception that vampires are benign but misunderstood beings. Though... if the number of homeless people suddenly drops precipitously, I doubt it'll have anything to do with an improving economy... Vampires never really struck me as the types to care about popularity, though. A lot of them... a LOT of them... are just hunter-killers who couldn't care less how their actions look to the media or the people, who they consider sheep to be slaughtered. There MUST be a large segment of the vampire population that's just out there killing indiscriminately, like they always have. There are other clues pointing to the "global magic" scenario... Slayers take over an Italian village, exile its population, and occupy it. No response from the military or the police, or even the media... Buffy had to rely on Andrew's sources to find out about something that should have been the world's #1 news story. Slayers show up in possession of a military submarine stolen from a friendly nation, and use it to blow up a civilian freighter crewed (as far as the public knows) by innocent, living humans... and no consequences. Larry King is primarily concerned about the loss of cute stuffed animals. And through it all, Buffy and her Slayers continue to live and train right there in the middle of the Scottish countryside, their location well known to Twilight and, therefore, to any government authorities he chooses to inform. It looks like there's some kind of spell in effect that causes people not to care about much of anything... at least where vampires and Slayers and demons are involved. Just sort of a "look the other way" spell like the one that caused everyone to not think about Los Angeles while it was in Hell in AtF. But why are the Slayers and their friends immune to this magic? ARE they fully immune to it? Is that why Buffy is taking such a hands-off approach lately? Is she getting as blissed out as the rest of humanity? She didn't even bother making a personal appearance in the fight against Judas Cradle, despite thinking he was going to be a lot tougher than he turned out to be. Are Simone and her crew working for Twilight, possibly without even realizing it?
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Post by wenxina on Jun 8, 2009 13:48:17 GMT -5
It's not that they're primarily concerned with popularity so much as it's convenient for them. As Spike puts it in "Becoming, Pt 2", it's like having a bunch of "Happy Meals on legs", except that they're running at you! Does it really bend reality that much to believe that humans are in general a bunch of apathetic narcissists? The US (and global) economy is in the dump, and all people could think of to spend their money on was to campaign against "gay marriage". I mean, that kinda puts things in perspective, no? All the small things distract from the big picture. And I think that's being conveyed pretty well in S8... everyone's more concerned about vampires and terrorist Slayers that they don't see that they're all being played by Twilight. Perhaps it's a spell... but perhaps it the age old trick of distraction and illusion. To paraphrase Xander in "TLWH", it's got everything to do with mirrors.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 8, 2009 14:02:07 GMT -5
Does it really bend reality that much to believe that humans are in general a bunch of apathetic narcissists? No, but it stretches plausibility to claim that they *all* are. Which kind of seems to be the case. People think and believe in all kinds of things. In real life, you'd have trouble getting as much universal consensus on the Law of Gravity as there seems to be in Season 8 on the OK-ness of vampires.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 8, 2009 14:28:01 GMT -5
Does it really bend reality that much to believe that humans are in general a bunch of apathetic narcissists? No, but it stretches plausibility to claim that they *all* are. Which kind of seems to be the case. People think and believe in all kinds of things. In real life, you'd have trouble getting as much universal consensus on the Law of Gravity as there seems to be in Season 8 on the OK-ness of vampires. But the point is, they aren't all fans of vampires. True, this has only been explored mostly on the front of what Slayers think of vampires (i.e. #21 and the new "Tales"), but I guess I finally found the one good thing about #24. That the town's people actually fear the vampires. So much so that they are willing to sacrifice their children to keep the demonic vampire repellent happy. Yes, that was a schlocky plot point, but it does show that people are not universally on the "Vampires=good" train.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 8, 2009 14:32:37 GMT -5
No, but it stretches plausibility to claim that they *all* are. Which kind of seems to be the case. Evidence to the contrary though. The vampires in (oh god why am I bringing up this issue...) Safe shows that not all vampires got the popular memo. *bashes head against wall for bringing up Safe* ETA: Yeah what Xi sad.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 8, 2009 14:42:35 GMT -5
I am getting a definite sense of apathy, though. Like people know what's going on with vampires and Slayers and just don't care for some reason. You even got that passionless vibe from the townspeople in "Safe."
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Post by wenxina on Jun 8, 2009 16:06:44 GMT -5
I am getting a definite sense of apathy, though. Like people know what's going on with vampires and Slayers and just don't care for some reason. You even got that passionless vibe from the townspeople in "Safe." Well... some people know that vampires are bad, but they're not going to risk their necks (whoa, pun!) to stop them. Hence the "apathetic narcissists" comment a few posts ago. But the point is, the world isn't all pro-vampire.
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narflet
Potential Slayer
grr. arg.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 198
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Post by narflet on Jun 8, 2009 17:55:47 GMT -5
Here is a blog post from Fabio Moon about the progression of his cover, with images. It's quite interesting to see the initial sketches. fabioandgabriel.blogspot.com/2009/06/33.htmlSorry if this has been posted already - I skimmed to see if it had, and couldn't obviously see it and I'm trying not to read posts in this thread as I haven't had the issue delivered yet!
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Post by wenxina on Jun 8, 2009 18:26:40 GMT -5
It has been, but thanks for reposting it. It's an interesting read, since it includes some cool conceptual sketches.
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Post by Rebecca on Jun 8, 2009 18:34:48 GMT -5
Is it still her son, though? Does a person's identity travel along with his soul, and is it lost when a person becomes a vampire? It's an unclear question in the Buffyverse. When a person becomes a vampire, his soul leaves his body and is replaced by a demon spirit. But that demon spirit has all the person's memories and most of his personality traits, just twisted toward evil. I think this is something Joss is exploring in Dollhouse. Where does identity lie? In the mind or the spirit? Or somewhere inbetween? Very similar to the moral qualms of identity we see with vampire ensoulment in the Buffyverse.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Jun 8, 2009 21:57:54 GMT -5
I also want to bring this to the table.
What if we found out there were real Buffyverse vampires in the world?
Except for a select few (Slayers, and those who aid them), what would we really know about them? And assuming we knew nothing of Buffyverse vampires, all we have pretty much to compare them to are Anne Rice's books, Twilight, Blade, Old-school Dracula, among other franchises. The point being, we wouldn't know. For all we know, they could be civilized higher, angelic beings or possibly the evil incarnate. And most of us would probably be too enthralled in the possibility of being "immortalized" when turned by them to assume the worst of vampires in general. I actually can picture this happening in our world. Most people, especially our generation will latch onto vampires like they are the next coming of Jesus (...so to speak). Everyone would be wanting to get some vampire friends, wanting to turn into a vampire, wanting to screw one, as well as getting fed off by one for a thrill...
Basically, this is how it happens in the comics.
***Tabloids get a pic of this hot vampire chick feeding from Andy Dick. Media instantly implies that this trend is cool with the "famous people". Next, we see this same woman getting her own reality show on MTV. She's bubbly, cute, and very sexually attractive "- she's Harmony!". We see her feed on willing people, which, after the umpteenth time, soon becomes "okay" and we're basically desensitized by it. So now this Harmony is like our own Tila Tequila and she thoroughly enjoys the spotlight.
Then, the most bizarre thing happens! Some strange girl comes out of nowhere and tries to kill our beloved Harmony....on live TV! And in defense, Harmony kills this "slayer" and it is revealed that there are apparently thousands of these "slayers" out there ready to kill Harmony and the rest of her cool vampire friends. After a while, Harmony is endorsing a line of plushie dolls known as Vampy Cats, which is expected to be the next craze. A day before the big shipment, however, a group of slayers go and blow it up. Man, these slayers are nuisances, aren't they?****
So to wrap it up, we know what Buffyverse vampires really are because we watched the show. But if the show never existed, what would you really think of vampires if their existence was revealed tomorrow?
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