|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 26, 2010 14:16:52 GMT -5
The questionable ones were indeed labeled as such, but some of the ones that you placed under "fact" aren't really so either, unless you're still going by the supposition that Twilight HAD to be "Mwahahaha!" evil. There's "mwahaha" evil, and then there's being willingly responsible for evil deeds. Angelus was the former. Twangel is the latter. While I believe Twangel was not the same kind of evil as Angelus, I don't believe souled Angel bears moral responsibility for the actions of Angelus. The Scoobies must agree with that (with difficulty), because if not they'd never have been able to forgive him or even tolerate his continued existence, after the things he'd done. But Twangel has the disadvantage of having much greater moral culpability for the things he's done. Unless Twilight was controlling him as completely as Angelus was... and the evidence suggests that's not the case... he can't blame this one on the demon inside him. Angelus only succeeded in killing a few people during season 2, and only one person really close to Buffy and friends. Twangel killed hundreds... and now, perhaps, millions. Angel never made a deliberate choice to become Angelus (except in season 4, which was a special circumstance). Once he became Angelus, he did not have the capacity to want to become Angel again. If it turns out that Twilight had that kind of involuntary grip over Angel, then I will reassess my views on him. But the evidence of #35 suggests otherwise. The only difference between Twangel and Jasmine is that Jasmine was operating entirely of her own volition. The morality of their agendas is exactly the same, except that Jasmine's twisted vision involved "saving" most of humanity, whereas Twangel's involved "saving" exactly two.
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 26, 2010 23:01:38 GMT -5
Angel now seems to have made the decision to put all that behind, which is nice. And he's killed a few demons at Buffy's side, which is nice. His Redemption Progress Bar is currently at about 1%. and i don't see that redemption percentage getting any higher during the next five issues. 4% tops. If I'm wrong, and they weren't mind-controlled to the point of having too much of their free will removed, he's at 0%. It doesn't count as redemption if you do it to make your "girlfriend" happy. Same reason I never will call Spike's actions "good " in season 5 & 6, because he did them for Buffy. EDIT- A good point to make it that no matter how great or small Angel's involement was, he knew. He could have been standing there, watching people die, and he would have been just as guilty as if he had done it himself (which he kid of did). He said he tried to lessen the damage, but what he should have done was to stop it. Anything less makes him a accomplice to murder. It's not okay to see the world end and just try to "lessen the blow". This is what convinces me that Twilight is affecting him so strongly, so he's basically not Angel anymore. Something convinced him Earth was lost, and that he was destinied to create a new world with Buffy. And he gladly stands in front of Buffy, telling her this, expecting her to be fine with it, like it makes perfect sense. This is what makes me think this is either fake Angel, or mind-controlled Angel. Because the Angel we knew would have fought destiny until he was ashes, if it meant so many would die, so he could be happy. But remind me again, what did he say about how much he knows how the world will look after they reached Twilight? Did he know it would probably be destroyed completely? I also wonder how he ever thought Buffy would leave her friends and family. He had Connor and friends, and should have remembered that love, even if they all died in LA, and understood that Buffy, the non-min-controlled Buffy, would never leave them. That's another reason it's so clear to me that this isn't a Angel with free will. Something made him forget family, friends, duty, his conscience, being able to and having the right to make his own destiny, etc etc. And that must be Twilight. Or I will do like Andrew just said and use Season 8 as back-up toilet paper. Btw, I never quite understood if he thought that people dying was inevitable, or the dying+sex? Did he think that everyone was going to die, and it was his choice to take the last step and have sex with Buffy to reach Twilight? And he figured "Well, I guess I'd better make the best of it"? because he thought the world would end anyway, even if they didn't have sex?
|
|
Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
|
Post by Darth Rosie on May 27, 2010 5:24:01 GMT -5
Good points, all that. Angel is so OOC, it's terribly confusing. If this is really Angel - which I fear -, I will be extremely disappointed, because one thing I have always loved about Buffy was solid & comprehensible character development. Just look at Willow: already in Episode 2 (The Harvest) she is shown with a taste for revenge when she gives Cordelia information that will delete the computer program she had been working on ("Deliver"). Dark Willow was well developed. The Angel of this season is not. In fact, re-reading Season 8 with Angel as Twilight in mind just didn't make sense. A Beautiful Sunset, everyone? I'm confused.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 7:47:29 GMT -5
My concern isn't that Angel is OOC... there are often very valid story reasons for that. My worry is that the writers aren't going to be true to the consequences of their own story.
I don't want the story trying to tell us that Angel "redeemed himself" by choosing to follow Buffy. Choosing to help now does nothing to atone for what he's done before. And Willow's tart comments to Angel and Buffy in #35 had better not be the last word on those two being confronted by their friends for their actions.
I also don't want to see them "nerf" the body count in order to make things easier for Angel. The mega-disasters happening around the world, and the demon invasion, would have to result in a huge fatality rate. Joss wrote it that way, and now he'd better own it.
What Angel did in season 8 is probably worse, in terms of destruction and lives lost, than Angelus's entire career. And this time, he did it with a soul. There needs to be a big, big reckoning over that. No slap on the back and "oh, we can't stay mad at you, ya big lug."
Stuff like Brad Meltzer's comment that "those Slayers died, but you can't say Angel killed them" make me very, very concerned that they're going to try and sell an easy, disingenuous out for Angel here.
Twangel's situation here is like a Nazi concentration camp commander saying "Yes, I burned a few Jews, but I could have burned many more if I'd really put as much effort into it as I was supposed to."
On the issue of Spike and Anya's moral situations, I'd like to point out that both of them ended up sacrificing their lives for their friends... the ultimate act of redemption. Angel has not... but this time, it might be the only option I'd buy.
|
|
alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
|
Post by alex_krycek on May 27, 2010 9:26:51 GMT -5
What Angel did in season 8 is probably worse, in terms of destruction and lives lost, than Angelus's entire career. And this time, he did it with a soul. There needs to be a big, big reckoning over that. No slap on the back and "oh, we can't stay mad at you, ya big lug." Stuff like Brad Meltzer's comment that "those Slayers died, but you can't say Angel killed them" make me very, very concerned that they're going to try and sell an easy, disingenuous out for Angel here. this is my fear as well. angel will be given an easy pardon from buffy and the scoobies will of course resent her for her decision. and this is old hat. we've seen it before and we know where that places buffy on the roller coaster of emotions. i do think that twangel avec soul has done about as much wrong (if not, more) than angelus. by idly standing by while the armed forces, amy, and warren killed slayers, ethan rayne, and others. i'm almost caught up on my second read through, but i still can't see angel as redeemable. i'd like to. but i just can't.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 9:51:10 GMT -5
I don't know if I'd say he's irredeemable, but I think he's much further away from redemption than he was in "Welcome to the Hellmouth." Back then, he was trying to atone for things he'd had no control over in the first place.
Pretty depressing and unsatisfying to read a story in which the protagonist, after 9+ seasons worth of story, is further away from his goal than when he started.
|
|
alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
|
Post by alex_krycek on May 27, 2010 10:08:51 GMT -5
^ very depressing. i'm not saying he's irredeemable. i suppose i should have elaborated a bit more. i meant to say that redemption will not be happening this season. some day, i would love to see him redeemed.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 10:19:02 GMT -5
If Spike has some kind of mojo that would reverse time and undo all of the things Twilight had done, and Angel lent his help to making that happen, then everything would be square. But I don't really see that happening. Joss doesn't usually give such a clean resolution, and it would be very similar to the way AtF ended.
If it happens, I'm afraid it will be at the cost of a Scooby or two, for reals.
|
|
alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
|
Post by alex_krycek on May 27, 2010 10:52:37 GMT -5
not a scooby i think going back in time and preventing the twilight is too simple of a solution and i hope that they refrain. but we all know how joss has resolved the unsolvables before.
|
|
|
Post by kaleidoscope on May 27, 2010 10:55:52 GMT -5
If it turns out that Twilight had that kind of involuntary grip over Angel, then I will reassess my views on him. But the evidence of #35 suggests otherwise. I think that this may well be the line that Joss will take. I suppose they could go with the following scenario if they wanted. Angel was under the influence of 'Twilight,' and that influence was broken by Buffy's decision to go back, the 'power of love' as it were. It's a bit hokey and makes Angel seem a little weak, but it has the advantage of playing up the love connection between the two, whilst keeping Angel redeemable.
|
|
alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
|
Post by alex_krycek on May 27, 2010 11:36:40 GMT -5
again, a little to simple for me. but better than the time travel theorem.
|
|
D'Hoffryn
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 127
|
Post by D'Hoffryn on May 27, 2010 12:26:51 GMT -5
Well I think if this saga is going to come to anything the finale needs to be big, cos so far i'm like 'Just make sense'.
To pull it off I can see Giles being the puppet master of angel. A, He knew all about the possibility of what could happen ans
B, remember his eyes lit up at the end of S7 when Buff told him her plan. 'nothing like this has ever been done before, I think it's bloody brilliant!' He was planning from then on knowing she was the one.
I just think it would be cool for giles to have found the totem and use it to control angel, bring back Ripper.
|
|
|
Post by anywherebuthere on May 27, 2010 12:29:05 GMT -5
I still stand by my first speculation that "Twilight" is getting orders from someone. Yeah, a scobby death seems definte. Dawn? I really don't want it to be Willow
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 13:23:36 GMT -5
I'm hoping there's something or someone behind Twilight other than just "the Universe." That really seems kind of dumb, actually. As well as pretty hopeless... the Universe pretty much holds all the cards, doesn't it? How do you fight it?
|
|
|
Post by anywherebuthere on May 27, 2010 13:38:00 GMT -5
^Magic? They could get Saga Vasuki...she needs to be fetured more!
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 13:45:23 GMT -5
^Magic? They could get Saga Vasuki...she needs to be fetured more! I'd sure like to see more of her. (In so many ways. ;D) Here's a good meta essay on season 8 that I agree with a whole lot.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 27, 2010 14:25:54 GMT -5
I'm hoping there's something or someone behind Twilight other than just "the Universe." That really seems kind of dumb, actually. As well as pretty hopeless... the Universe pretty much holds all the cards, doesn't it? How do you fight it? It's not really any more inconceivable than fighting the First. Both are abstract concepts. And while the First didn't succeed back in "Chosen", it didn't lose either. As long as there is evil in the world, It exists, and I would argue, probably thrives.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 14:39:09 GMT -5
It's not really any more inconceivable than fighting the First. Both are abstract concepts. And while the First didn't succeed back in "Chosen", it didn't lose either. As long as there is evil in the world, It exists, and I would argue, probably thrives. But the Universe is, by definition, everything, isn't it? Shouldn't it be just about the closest thing to an omnipotent God in the Whedonverse? And shouldn't a force this powerful have been able to deprive Buffy and Angel of their free will entirely? It's not clear to me whether the Universe is meant to be a sentient intelligence, or just a natural system of evolution. I think we need something a bit more specific. The First Evil pretty clearly wasn't the Worst Evil. Kind of like how Barack Obama may be the ultimate military authority in the U.S., but hardly the best personal fighter.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on May 27, 2010 14:58:57 GMT -5
I don't think we'll get any more deets on the "universe" at large, unless the plot/mythology requires it. Always been the way Joss and Co. roll. They'll throw out things like "hell dimension", "hell-god", "Old One", etc when it's convenient, but I doubt he sits down and weaves it all together. There have been so many discussions trying to assemble the pecking order of the primordial past, and it's all really for nought; he will probably never publish an encyclopedia of the Buffyverse, the way Rowling did with the Harry Potter universe. Nor should he feel like he needs to. It's always been clear that BtVS is drama first and foremost, with a veneer of the supernatural thrown on. The universe may well be everything, but things within it have agency. The First had Its own agenda in S7, balance be damned. And at the moment, it looks like Buffy and Angel are no longer doing Its bidding either. Which leads to my conclusion that it isn't omnipotent in the purest sense. It wouldn't fit in with humanist principles if it did.
|
|
Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
|
Post by Dorotea on May 27, 2010 15:06:55 GMT -5
I'm hoping there's something or someone behind Twilight other than just "the Universe." That really seems kind of dumb, actually. As well as pretty hopeless... the Universe pretty much holds all the cards, doesn't it? How do you fight it? Actually it sounds pretty hopeful to me. See, the Universe ain't good or evil - it is neutral and strives to maintain balance. It would reject excessive goodness - much as it would reject excess of evil. The fact that it is the Universe ( aka PtB's ) that drives the Twilight explains a lot about 'why' and 'how come'. The Slayer empowerment spell was the catalyst - exactly because the excess of goodness tilted the balance in favor of one of the sides - and that eventually caused the start of the re-balancing - aka Twilight. This is also why by default it ( or anybody driven by it) cannot be considered 'evil'. If the Universe cares as much about average vampire or demon as much as it cares about average human - it explains the ambiguity and makes the whole story rather more interesting... IMHO - the new balance would be achieved eventually when both good and evil are once again are incapable of defeating each other permanently.
|
|