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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 15:42:03 GMT -5
If the Universe regards humans and demons/vampires as equals, though, I'm not sure how it considers 1,800 Slayers vs. many thousands (or more) of demons and vampires to be "tilted in favor of good." Especially since only about 500 of those 1,800 (Buffy's army) are fighting with any common purpose. They never came anywhere near defeating the world's demons and vamps. I suppose you could argue that the existence of the Slayer Spell... which activates all Potentials when they reach the right age... would inevitably overbalance the scales eventually.
We know that Buffy will banish all vampires and demons from our reality. Wouldn't that create a massive imbalance in the opposite direction? Seems like the next step would be for the "good" Powers to move in and take uncontested control of this world, soon eliminating evil entirely. That would also destroy the Universe's balance.
Since "good" and "evil" are human-created concepts that vary in definition from person to person, I'm not sure how a mindless Universe could use them as a distinguishing factor in assessing balance.
I dunno. We may all be thinking way too profoundly about what is really just a comic book story and not a metaphysics textbook.
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Post by wenxina on May 27, 2010 16:14:33 GMT -5
There are two answers that come to mind for your first concern. The first is ecological. In a balanced ecosystem, there are always more prey than there are predators. So, in that sense, vampires being the hunted of the Slayer, it would make sense that way. The other, is of course thematic. That one girl in all the world was considered to be equal to so many adversaries puts a lot more stock into "good" than "evil". The universe doesn't necessarily have to recognize human concepts to strive for a balance. Balance is the middle point between two antagonistic forces. Yin and yang. It's just the duality that matters.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2010 16:35:19 GMT -5
I guess we know how this is all going to turn out, big-picture wise. Buffy banishes all the demons, vampires and magic. The Universe balances that out by eliminating all the Slayers, either through death or depowering, or maybe by banishing them as well. What happens to the characters during all this is really the bigger concern now. There are two answers that come to mind for your first concern. The first is ecological. In a balanced ecosystem, there are always more prey than there are predators. So, in that sense, vampires being the hunted of the Slayer, it would make sense that way. During the TV show, at least, the vampire survival strategy seemed quite simple: don't go to Sunnydale, California. The vamps everywhere else in the world had free rein. Kind of odd, but I guess it would have cost too much to show Buffy and friends roaming the world, like they should have been doing.
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Post by wenxina on May 27, 2010 16:46:58 GMT -5
During the TV show, at least, the vampire survival strategy seemed quite simple: don't go to Sunnydale, California. The vamps everywhere else in the world had free rein. Kind of odd, but I guess it would have cost too much to show Buffy and friends roaming the world, like they should have been doing. Well, the Hellmouth has some kind of pull on all kinds of ghoulies, so perhaps it's not as simple as all that. Plus, there were quite a few vampires who had no idea what a Slayer was. It's probably not inconceivable that Slayers were kinda like a boogieman legend for many. So following that pull to the Hellmouth would have them right in Buffy's neighborhood.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
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Post by Dorotea on May 27, 2010 20:01:33 GMT -5
If the Universe regards humans and demons/vampires as equals, though, I'm not sure how it considers 1,800 Slayers vs. many thousands (or more) of demons and vampires to be "tilted in favor of good." Especially since only about 500 of those 1,800 (Buffy's army) are fighting with any common purpose. They never came anywhere near defeating the world's demons and vamps. I suppose you could argue that the existence of the Slayer Spell... which activates all Potentials when they reach the right age... would inevitably overbalance the scales eventually. We know that Buffy will banish all vampires and demons from our reality. Wouldn't that create a massive imbalance in the opposite direction? Seems like the next step would be for the "good" Powers to move in and take uncontested control of this world, soon eliminating evil entirely. That would also destroy the Universe's balance. Since "good" and "evil" are human-created concepts that vary in definition from person to person, I'm not sure how a mindless Universe could use them as a distinguishing factor in assessing balance. I dunno. We may all be thinking way too profoundly about what is really just a comic book story and not a metaphysics textbook. wenxina answered about the ecological balance already - I actually think it makes sense that for every tiger there are hundreds of deer and elk out there. As for Universe mindlessness - it seems this is arguable. PtB's utilize messengers and oracles, etc that are somewhat sentient although can only relay general 'rules of the game'. Still, the snowfalls happen in due time - and the visions point out to the actual creatures in need. Funny that - it does look as if the Uni is slightly tilted toward good - but that's probably because evil is usually rampantly anti-balance? As for your concern that the 'good' will take universal control of this world - probably yes - but it does look like the demons would have their own place of existence - and the magic creatures would find some corner of the universe as well. Separation - at least for a while - is a form of balance IMHO. Fray verse might not turn out to be paradise - but this will only prove the point that evil exists in human mundane world regardless of the presence of supernatural. So separating supernatural from mundane does not mean triumph of good - it simply means balance on a new level. And it does not mean the newly found 'point of equilibrium' would be the ideal.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 27, 2010 21:03:05 GMT -5
If Spike has some kind of mojo that would reverse time and undo all of the things Twilight had done, and Angel lent his help to making that happen, then everything would be square. But I don't really see that happening. Joss doesn't usually give such a clean resolution, and it would be very similar to the way AtF ended. If it happens, I'm afraid it will be at the cost of a Scooby or two, for reals. I doubt it would be that easy for me to forgive him(assuming he's acting out of his free will), unless Angel's reasons for helping would be more than "Well, Buffy wants me to, I guess I'd better help". There'd better be true remorse.
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on May 28, 2010 1:30:03 GMT -5
Reading your comments, it occured to me why I may be so annoyed with the concept of Twangel. It reminds me of the destruction of Cordelia in Season 4 of Angel. Been there, not enjoyed it.
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zamolxis
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 210
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Post by zamolxis on Jun 3, 2010 2:04:26 GMT -5
Maybe, Buffy was right suspecting that the Twilight plane was a trap! And there will be somebody behind all this, a Master of Puppets who just wanted Buffy out of the picture in a self-indulging heaven, while back on Earth the dimensions walls are ripped and old demons invaded Earth.
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jun 3, 2010 2:48:37 GMT -5
The sentient Universe?
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Darth Rosie
Ensouled Vampire
I do doodle
Keeper of Didacity [? Astray][Mo0:12]
Posts: 1,392
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Post by Darth Rosie on Jun 3, 2010 3:39:19 GMT -5
That would not convince me. I'm waiting for a convincing turn of events. I can be patient. But I do hope that Joss Whedon will return to the highs of "Time of you life".
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 3, 2010 7:23:54 GMT -5
If "the Universe" really does turn out to be the Big Bad, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to call it lame. We need a villain with a face. This is more like a reverse deus ex machina (diabolus ex machina?)
Even in season 7, when "evil" was the Big Bad, they personified it. At this rate of increasing vagueness, by season 9 the Big Bad will be "life sucks and then you die."
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Jun 3, 2010 8:57:37 GMT -5
Maybe, Buffy was right suspecting that the Twilight plane was a trap! And there will be somebody behind all this, a Master of Puppets who just wanted Buffy out of the picture in a self-indulging heaven, while back on Earth the dimensions walls are ripped and old demons invaded Earth. after re-reading the arc, i have a new theory. who, besides glory, was hell bent on opening a dimensional portal for a god to escape through? her minions of course. but what ever happened to the guy that cut dawn to open the gate? from here on, i'll refer to him as "blood letting guy" or "BLG." last we saw of him, buffy threw him off of a scaffold. but nothing ever seems to kill that guy. when we were first introduced to BLG in season five, he appeared to have some knowledge of who spike was (once upon a time), or perhaps he was just bars in the window crazy. but perhaps BLG new spike from a time in the future? i know joss may not have been planning for season 8 around the time of season five's production, but it would give him the opportunity to elaborate on past events in the buffyverse. in addition to this, the thing i remember most of BLG, besides his tail, is his eyes. they could turn incredibly black and freaky. before angel and buffy went back to their universe of origin, there was a close-up on angels face, and his eyes seemed darker than usual. almost black to me. so my question here is, could the blood letting guy from season five be the puppet master of twilight? it could explain spike's involvement, especially since time travel has been introduced into the season. and it would bring closure for me regarding the blood letting guy. if BLG was in cahoots w/ glory, then perhaps he was trying to fulfill her vision, (minus glory's transit back to her home dimension) creating hell in the universe and sending buffy out of this universe.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 3, 2010 9:09:41 GMT -5
I think Wolfram & Hart would be by far the most logical choice for "hidden puppet masters" in season 8. Manipulating Angel to bring about the Apocalypse is what they're all about. But they're exclusively an AtS thing, so I doubt they'll be used.
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Jun 3, 2010 9:55:26 GMT -5
Maybe, Buffy was right suspecting that the Twilight plane was a trap! And there will be somebody behind all this, a Master of Puppets who just wanted Buffy out of the picture in a self-indulging heaven, while back on Earth the dimensions walls are ripped and old demons invaded Earth. after re-reading the arc, i have a new theory. who, besides glory, was hell bent on opening a dimensional portal for a god to escape through? her minions of course. but what ever happened to the guy that cut dawn to open the gate? from here on, i'll refer to him as "blood letting guy" or "BLG." last we saw of him, buffy threw him off of a scaffold. but nothing ever seems to kill that guy. when we were first introduced to BLG in season five, he appeared to have some knowledge of who spike was (once upon a time), or perhaps he was just bars in the window crazy. but perhaps BLG new spike from a time in the future? i know joss may not have been planning for season 8 around the time of season five's production, but it would give him the opportunity to elaborate on past events in the buffyverse. in addition to this, the thing i remember most of BLG, besides his tail, is his eyes. they could turn incredibly black and freaky. before angel and buffy went back to their universe of origin, there was a close-up on angels face, and his eyes seemed darker than usual. almost black to me. so my question here is, could the blood letting guy from season five be the puppet master of twilight? it could explain spike's involvement, especially since time travel has been introduced into the season. and it would bring closure for me regarding the blood letting guy. if BLG was in cahoots w/ glory, then perhaps he was trying to fulfill her vision, (minus glory's transit back to her home dimension) creating hell in the universe and sending buffy out of this universe. Was that guy's name "Doc"?
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Jun 3, 2010 10:33:16 GMT -5
yeah, i think spike called him doc a few times.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 3, 2010 11:56:18 GMT -5
Reading your comments, it occured to me why I may be so annoyed with the concept of Twangel. It reminds me of the destruction of Cordelia in Season 4 of Angel. Been there, not enjoyed it. Same here. But with her we atleast got enough "proof" that she'd been possessed/thralled since Spin The Bottle (maybe earlier) and we could say "It wasn't her fault/It wasn't her". We got to know enough to be able to believe that, even tough it was still horrible to watch. I'm not sure we'll get that satisfaction with Angel. I fear we'll get on panel with Willow saying "Angel was under the influence of the universe" and that's it, no more explanation or background. But I think I read somewhere that issue 36 shows how Spike & Angel got where they are today. Hopefully that's true.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 3, 2010 12:10:02 GMT -5
I just re-watched the Angel episode "Judgment" the other day, and I was struck by how much Angel's outlook seems to have changed since then.
In that episode, Angel was devastated to find out he'd unknowingly killed a fellow champion of good... even though that champion was a demon who attacked him without any obvious provocation, with clear intent to kill. To make amends he resolved to take the demon's place as the protector of a pregnant mother, and risk his life to save her.
In season 8, Angel apparently feels no remorse or even responsibility for overseeing the deaths of more than 200 champions of good, and then watching the world and everyone he knows get destroyed for the sake of his and his girlfriend's happiness.
We're awfully far along in Angel's story for him to be sliding so far backwards along his path to redemption. It's an interesting choice of story direction on Joss's part, really: just because you want redemption doesn't mean you're going to get it.
I just wish I wasn't as emotionally involved with these characters... then maybe I could appreciate it more.
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cant
Innocent Bystander
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Posts: 32
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Post by cant on Jun 3, 2010 14:20:32 GMT -5
but that was soooo long ago.Did you remember what angel do in Power Play you know killing DROGYN or in Not Fade Away when he make lorne to kill Lindsey.Angel changes and it started before season 8.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 3, 2010 14:33:54 GMT -5
but that was soooo long ago.Did you remember what angel do in Power Play you know killing DROGYN or in Not Fade Away when he make lorne to kill Lindsey.Angel changes and it started before season 8. Killing Lindsey was a bad thing, and Angel shouldn't have had Lorne do it, IMO. But Lindsey was hardly a champion of good. Drogyn was, and that was also a bad thing for him to do, but at least Angel had a reason for it that wasn't completely selfish. Angel didn't kill the Slayers in hopes of saving humanity... he did it to bring about the end of humanity, be it sooner or later. Even if you accept that Angel didn't know the death of humanity was on the Universe's agenda (and I don't accept that, at least not yet), there's really no way to rationalize how bringing about Twilight was going to benefit anyone but himself and Buffy and whatever "master race" they were going to breed. A mystical breeding program is not a justification for the murder of 200 heroes. Angel has made plenty of mistakes and done plenty of morally questionable things (not counting Angelus, which I don't hold him responsible for)... but this is the first time his motives have been as dishonorable as his methods.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
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Post by Dorotea on Jun 3, 2010 20:08:24 GMT -5
but that was soooo long ago.Did you remember what angel do in Power Play you know killing DROGYN or in Not Fade Away when he make lorne to kill Lindsey.Angel changes and it started before season 8. Killing Lindsey was a bad thing, and Angel shouldn't have had Lorne do it, IMO. But Lindsey was hardly a champion of good. Drogyn was, and that was also a bad thing for him to do, but at least Angel had a reason for it that wasn't completely selfish. Angel didn't kill the Slayers in hopes of saving humanity... he did it to bring about the end of humanity, be it sooner or later. Even if you accept that Angel didn't know the death of humanity was on the Universe's agenda (and I don't accept that, at least not yet), there's really no way to rationalize how bringing about Twilight was going to benefit anyone but himself and Buffy and whatever "master race" they were going to breed. A mystical breeding program is not a justification for the murder of 200 heroes. Angel has made plenty of mistakes and done plenty of morally questionable things (not counting Angelus, which I don't hold him responsible for)... but this is the first time his motives have been as dishonorable as his methods. (a) breeding master race was what Giles stated as the final end of Twilight - there is no other confirmation it was in fact the agenda of the Universe aka PtB's; more over there is no confirmation that Angel -as-Twilight knew he was aiming at 'breeding master race with Buffy'. In fact, he states himself that 'they said it did not exist' - i.e. he had no idea Twiligh was actually a place and they were going to end up there (b) all he is talking about once inside Twilight is 'no more fighting, no more dieing' and 'we can make it right' - and that's AFTER just realizing the plane of Twilight is 'what they make it' (c) 'we are finally free' - confirms he only got his free will AFTER they entered Twilight IMO - he had no plans of breeding master race with Buffy - he barely had an idea what will happen when they finally 'get together', he definitely had no idea the rifts will open and the destruction of the world as it is will begin
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