Out of Character in Season Eight?

[sosa lola]

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I get why it's been hard for some fans to enjoy S8; the change in medium, the lack of budget restrain, the fairy tale theme of the season, the return of so many older characters, the lack of actors and music, female nudity….. etc

All these issues are valid and understandable, but the accusation I don't understand is claiming that characters are written out of character.

One of the things I've enjoyed the most about S8 is the characterization. All characters are written accurately IMO.

I get accusing Buffy and Angel to be written out of character, Angel more than Buffy. But other than that, all characters are developing naturally based on the last time we've seen them in S7.

Xander started becoming mellower and understanding after Selfless and S8 continued that, to the extent of Xander not objecting to Buffy's decision to rob a bank. His close friendship with Buffy started after Seeing Red, grew closer in S7, and grew closer in S8. Natural development. Xander's relationship with Dawn was set since S7. Xander is able to resist the Dracula thrall and tell him off (a much better conclusion to his story with Dracula than what we got in Buffy Vs Dracula).

Then we have Willow, who'd been so scared to use her powers in S7, afraid she'd lose control, regained confidence after her last spell in Chosen. Then in S8, she decides to do something about it. She starts from the beginning; she does what she didn't want to do before when she was arrogant and smug about her powers (S5 and S6), she wants to understand her powers, she's looking for a guide. That's character growth. Happened naturally and perfectly.

As for Giles, the wall between him and Buffy is still there, even though they're pretending it's not. Giles also acts behind Buffy's back again, he seems to have taken a habit of that. His relationship with Faith is a wonderful new addition to canon.

Dawn goes to college, dates Kenny despite Buffy's objections, seems she's been using him to get Buffy's attention. She pissed him off on purpose so that he'd curse her and then Buffy would have to save her, but unfortunately Buffy didn't, and Dawn had to save herself. She learned a lot from this experience. Then she started a relationship with Xander, something the writers seemed to have been building up since S7.

Faith's character development is also gradual and moves smoothly after S7. Same goes for Andrew.

Last but not least, Buffy. "I'm the law" it all started in S7 and continued in S8. "The thing about changing the world, once you do it, the world is all different." This is Buffy's newest challenge, the hardest, and yes, she probably didn't handle a lot of things perfectly, but personally I understand what she's going through and sympathize, even though I don't agree with a lot of her decisions.

[AndrewCrossett]

Too many readers equate "doing surprising things" with being "out of character." A character who never acts OOC quickly becomes a boring character.

I find that all the characters in season 8 have been depicted true to their development, and in light of the very big changes that have happened in their lives since "Chosen."

The only character I don't understand right now is Angel, and I assume that's because so-far-unknown things have happened to him, and not because he just decided one day it was cool to start killing young girls for a living. But I will consider it OOC only if he affirms he did all those things of his own completely free will, and there wasn't some profoundly life-changing event to drive him to such a place. In that case, it won't be an example of OOC writing, but of a conflicted character making a very bad and morally repugnant choice. Which people do sometimes.

I'd only call it OOC if they try to pass Twangel's behavior off as consistent with the Angel we last saw, canonically, in AtF.

Buffy having sex with Angel under those circumstances is OOC for Buffy, I think, but possibly for similar reasons.

[The Night Lord]

Jun 9, 2010 10:55:15 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

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I get why it's been hard for some fans to enjoy S8; the change in medium, the lack of budget restrain, the fairy tale theme of the season, the return of so many older characters, the lack of actors and music, female nudity….. etc

Female nudity was an issue? All the important parts were covered, so it wasn't that bad (I, on the other hand, liked the female nudity...)

[sosa lola]

Andrew, I agree with everything you said except for finding Buffy having sex with Angel as OOC. Perhaps that scene needed SMG to play conflicted Buffy more than any other scene in the comics.

Jun 10, 2010 0:36:59 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Female nudity was an issue? All the important parts were covered, so it wasn't that bad (I, on the other hand, liked the female nudity...)

Plenty of fans expressed their displeasure about it, it's a shift from what we've seen in the show. Usually female characters are covered in the show and male characters are the ones exposed.

[The Night Lord]

Now it's our turn for the eye candy...even if it is in comic form

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 10, 2010 2:38:29 GMT -5 sosa lola said:

Andrew, I agree with everything you said except for finding Buffy having sex with Angel as OOC. Perhaps that scene needed SMG to play conflicted Buffy more than any other scene in the comics.

Under the circumstances, I think having sex with him goes beyond being conflicted. One moment, she was throwing trees at him, honestly trying to kill him. She was, if possible, even angrier than when she kicked him in the groin back in season 2. She believed, with murderous intensity, that he was responsible for killing 206 of her girls and making her life hell for a year. His response was basically "I didn't do it, and anyway, I HAD to do it." Certainly, not nearly enough to satisfy her after all that's happened.

Yes, there was the effect of "the glow," and I suppose Buffy probably wouldn't have boinked him otherwise. But if Buffy had no choice but to have sex with him, then she should be reacting right now like someone who has just been forced to have sex against her will with a person she considers a mass murderer of her own friends.

The sex is OOC if she was in control of her actions at that point; her reaction to it is OOC if she wasn't.

[rogue11]

The thing with season 8, and this was an issue in season 7 i think, is that the cast is too large.
When you have a massive army of characters, then the main chracters become part of a bigger crowd and not these complex, rich characters with all these different layers to them. They become faces in a larger crowd who barely get any attention.
There's good dialouge going on in this comic series but there isn't a lot of emotional scenes and if there is, then the characters often suck it up and go on with the battle.
The thing with this comic series is that, yes they can do all these crazy things because they dont have to worry about a budget, but when you dont have actors performing with emotion and you're too busy doing all these crazy, visual things, then the emotional aspect of the series kind of goes down. HEnce why the characters dont seem the same as they used to on TV.

[VampSlayer]

The characters have been out of character in spots, no doubt. I can't name a time off the top of my head, but I can recall thinking, "... This is Buffy?" Sometimes it is hard to stay reading this series. I like it, but I don't love it. I think the confusing and messed up plot has affected me more than the character voices.

[deathisyourgift]

Jun 10, 2010 5:00:27 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Now it's our turn for the eye candy...even if it is in comic form

As a female, I have also noticed the absurd amount of nudity. It is surprising to me, that a story line which has been so revered for promoting "Girl Power" and whose creator has furthermore started and now helms a woman's empowerment/anti-sexism group/movement (Equality Now) would suddenly shift their nudity p.o.v. just because of the comic format. In other words, why would Joss, who is soooo into role reversal--in the male and female western societal normed roles--suddenly decide to completely flip-flop his content because now it's being delivered in a comic drawing rather than through live action television? It just makes me wonder, is Joss losing his connection with Buffy and the story? Or is this being purposely done for the story? Am I overthinking these things?!!??!

Either way, I decided to quote you, NightLord, because I think it's fair to say that you as a male have had your fair share of eye candy in the past, oh, I don't know...EVER! We live in a society--globally--in which men are encouraged to look at women, to the point that there are billboard ads of half-naked women for all to see. Therefore, I personally, really appreciated all the male eye candy on Buffy, and is quite possibly why S6 is my favorite season (thank you GOD for James Marters!). That being said, I don't want you to take this personally, either, NightLord, you just raised a question that I thought would be interesting to throw in my two cents.

Considering the rest of the character shifts in this intriguing S8, I would have to say that they are not acting out of character. I like to think of it as further character development, like in S4 when Willow was like "Oh, I got dumped....I'm GAY!" Don't get me wrong, I fully love that storyline and I think that Willow truly is gay. However, I remember watching the Tara love story develop and being so confused, because Willow had previously been sooooo in love with both Oz and Xander, both males. It really took me a while to get over the shock factor of the introduction of this new love interest to finally sit with the idea that Willow is just gay. Once I was able to do that, especially in re-watching the series, I understood the development of the character in a way that really felt right. I think that with the Dawn-Xander relationship I kinda flipped out, because I was really anti-Dawn for a long time (she's still really annoying in S5 and I purposely skip episodes to avoid her snottiness!). However, I am already beginning to accept that relationship as making sense, begrudgingly though it may be. I think it would be very in character for Xander to fall for Dawn, as she represents all of the things that stopped Buffy from loving him. She is on his level, and he is on hers. And we know how much of a crush Dawn had on Xand before she met Spike.

Anyhoo, the comics are still new in my mind, and I think it'll just get some re-reading and pondering to come around to a lot of the character shifts.

Great topic! *karma*
-Jen

[TC]

Aug 13, 2010 19:18:39 GMT -5 deathisyourgift said:

As a female, I have also noticed the absurd amount of nudity. It is surprising to me, that a story line which has been so revered for promoting "Girl Power" and whose creator has furthermore started and now helms a woman's empowerment/anti-sexism group/movement (Equality Now) would suddenly shift their nudity p.o.v. just because of the comic format. In other words, why would Joss, who is soooo into role reversal--in the male and female western societal normed roles--suddenly decide to completely flip-flop his content because now it's being delivered in a comic drawing rather than through live action television? It just makes me wonder, is Joss losing his connection with Buffy and the story? Or is this being purposely done for the story? Am I overthinking these things?!!??!

Interesting point. When looking at the sudden female nudity in terms of just the Whedonverse, though, I think it's actually a flip-flop/role-reversal itself. In a society dominated by the idea that men should be aggressive and sexual, while women should stay submissive, I think it's a very powerful image for a woman to be naked and enjoying and controlling her sexuality.

I don't think Joss is losing his connection with Buffy and her story -- in fact I think it's strengthening and becoming more clear.

- TC

Edit

I just wanted to touch on your ideas regarding the switch to comic book format and how you think it's responsible for this increase in female nudity:

First of all, I think, if anything, the switch to comic format has given us a truer Buffy. Without the constrictions of budget and actors, etc., I believe that Whedon has been given much more control over his story. Logically, this heightened contol could only lead to something truer to his actual vision.

For instance, this season we've seen time traveling, Giant/Centaur/Ceramic doll Dawn, Willow truly being a goddess, Buffy commanding hundreds of Slayers from a Scottish castle... We've traveled to Tokyo, Tibet, New York -- even back to Sunnydale. The vast majority of these things could never have been done with the restrictions of television. As I said, with those restrictions removed, we get something closer to Joss' true vision, which creates a truer Buffy.

This leads me to believe that increased female nudity has to equal at least a path towards Whedon's vision, which, as we know, includes promoting girl power. I don't think increased female nudity is due to the switch to comic format solely -- moreso due to the fact that Whedon now has more control over the Buffyverse. Which, well, is attributed to the switch to comics...so, actually, YES! Increased female nudity = because of comics, though I'm not sure it's in the bad way you're implying.

I'm not sure how much of that made sense. It's 11. I'm tired. *yawn*

[BlueJay]

Well basically I have no problem with the female nudity. But there's been a fair share of male nudity as well. Buffy's threesome dream, Xander working out, Oz's post-wolfout flashbacks, Buffy and Angel having skysex...

But to say that there's more female nudity because the story is now told in comic format isn't downright dismissive. Sexuality sells and comics are mostly read by males.

Or. Like TC said, maybe this is what Joss wanted to exhibit in his work all along, perhaps he just didn't have enough actresses that were up for it when BtVS was on air.

[Hallow Thorn]

Female nudity, male nudity w/e it's all good.

[Dorotea]

I bet you that the publishers /editors are very much aware that this particular comics is equally read by male and female audience - I suspect it might be actually slightly skewed towards female audience. I also find the nudity in graphic novels absolutely acceptable and enjoyable - if the art is good. Sometimes I am astounded at some reactions here - next thing you know we will be back to slapping fig leafs on the Greek nude statues' privates in our museums...

[Beaumonde]

The only female nudity, that I can think of and that's questionable, is the Willow one-shot cover.

Overall, I don't think the nudity is anything new or extremely bad. 6 and 7 had their fair share of topless, naked Spike. In "Sleeper" he's just lying in bed, but they had to pull the covers up a bit so fangirls could see his pelvis. www.screencap-paradise.com/caps/displayimage.php?pid=569103&fullsize=1

The covers didn't HAVE to be that low.

[Dorotea]

One can actually argue that unlike the live tv performance the graphic novel can push the boundaries with nudity to pretty much were it wants. Every artists' beginner education starts with drawing of still nature, than goes to nude models. Every great artist of the last 5 centuries starting from Durer and Bosch and ending with Picasso and Dali draw, painted and engraved nude humans - both male and female. It is so very strange that many of us think that comics should be more conservative than 16 century engravings...

[TC]

Aug 15, 2010 10:00:28 GMT -5 SOMNAMBULIST 2.0 said:

Male nudity, I am fine with, as well as female nudity (but I don't like it). But there shouldn't be that much nudity in anything on TV or in movies or in comic books. There is no need for it, and for Joss, who barely had any nudity on the show, this is shocking.

Well, I consider what Joss does art, and art is supposed to imitate life, right? People get naked in real life. People have sex. It's a thing.

I guess I just don't see the big deal. *shrug*

[deathisyourgift]

Aug 14, 2010 22:56:05 GMT -5 TC said:

This leads me to believe that increased female nudity has to equal at least a path towards Whedon's vision, which, as we know, includes promoting girl power. I don't think increased female nudity is due to the switch to comic format solely -- moreso due to the fact that Whedon now has more control over the Buffyverse. Which, well, is attributed to the switch to comics...so, actually, YES! Increased female nudity = because of comics, though I'm not sure it's in the bad way you're implying.

I wasn't implying that the comic format was bad, I love what is accomplished in comics, I'm a huge comic fan! I simply meant that because of the freedom of the comic format, Joss may be able to show more than he would have been able to show on TV. In fact, I must not have said it correctly by focusing on the nudity bit, but whatever, lol.

I in no way think that the female nudity is being done in a sexist way. Nor do I think that the male nudity is either. I truly agree with everything you said about depicting such a strong and confident woman enjoying herself in the nude with her lover whom she cares deeply about. I guess I'm just a little pissy because BtVS S1-7 were one of the only places in the media that I was able to see men being depicted in the same sensual lens as women. It was more equal on the show, whereas everywhere else in media the women are naked and the men wear suits. Anyway, I am an artist, and I have studied endless female nudes in history courses. It's a fact that female nudes are more popular and widely accepted and displayed because the society is encouraged to take on the male gaze and assume that women are more attractive than men when nude. This was a discussion we had in one of my classes, and it brought up a great group called Guerilla Girls. There are just as many male nudes out there are female nudes, but they aren't shown because of the skewed perspective that society forces upon us, as viewers, to accept the female body naked, and not the male.

Of course there are always exceptions to every argument, but I digress.
-Jen

[moscowwatcher]

I think that everything that happens to Angel is OOC and I hope there will be an explanation that he was/is either brainwashed or hypnotized. Otherwise I can't accept that Angel doesn't mind his son dying in the apocalypse as long as he, Angel, can have sex with Buffy in paradise.

As to Buffy, I think that her bank-robbing stint is OOC. Not only she has commited a crime - she has also corrupted new slayers, encouraged them to abuse power, inspired Simone to become a full-fledged criminal. I hoped, for a long time, that we'll get an explanation beyond "she needed money to install a satellite device", but it looks like there won't be one.

The other characters act in character, I think.

[whitecandy]

I hadn't even really noticed any female nudity in the comics, I was too enthralled with the storyline (and trying to understand it!) and the superb drawings. I don't really remember that much male nudity in the series either. I do remember that Riley wasn't naked enough if that helps

Even so, nudity or not, it is the way the writers and artists perceived the situation and storylines they were doing and comic form permitted them to do way more than the show ever could. It isn't the same as a naked woman emblazoned across the cover of a mens magazine, and I don't think Joss would ever allow any of his work to be cheapened by sex selling. A perfect example of this is the relationship between Willow and Tara in the tv show. Beautiful, innocent and tragic yes. Sexy and naughty no. Which is where the boundaries of the Whedoverse are so different to those of many other shows.

I also feel that most of the characters have been true to their usual form and have developed in a way that I always imagined they would. I believe the characters in the comics, that they are who they are meant to be.

[sire]

The telvision series took on the 'female gaze' in terms of nudity.
We never saw Buffy in anything more provocative then a skimpy skirt, whereas Angel, Spike and Xander were constantly naked or near nude.
I've found the increase in female nudity strange only in that it doesnt keep with what we saw in the tv show. But still.. not a massive deal! We didnt see huge explosions, flying characters and giants in the show either!
We still have some Spike, Angel and Xander nudey bits, so all good! Im all for equal oportunity naked times