Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 9, 2008 7:36:24 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 9, 2008 7:36:24 GMT -5
It goes without saying that I disagree with everything in that statement. Well, see, I don't mind that, but I do mind your jumping to the conclusion that "people who value good writing and good storytelling tend to be disappointed with Season 6". That statement is offensive to more than half of the fandom. I'll PM you about BF.
|
|
patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Feb 9, 2008 8:48:52 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Feb 9, 2008 8:48:52 GMT -5
Well, see, I don't mind that, but I do mind your jumping to the conclusion that "people who value good writing and good storytelling tend to be disappointed with Season 6". That statement is offensive to more than half of the fandom. I'll PM you about BF. You're right; that was uncalled for. I apologize.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 9, 2008 9:20:28 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 9, 2008 9:20:28 GMT -5
'Sokay. I don't think you have to worry about Joss damaging characters and relationships for the heck of it, though. When he does that, it's rarely permanent, and always to serve the story. He may have a bit of a sadistic streak, but at the end of the day, he loves these characters even more than we do. David Fury: Joss has just an extraordinary love of what he does, extraordinary love of writing and such affection for his characters. Most shows, this show, certainly, and I found it in Lost, and I've talked to other people on other shows, everyone's sort of doing their job, and they are putting out their product, but the affection for their characters wanes at some point, and they just feel they are doing the job, they don't really care. Joss never lost the love of any of his characters, and it was remarkable, because seven years into Buffy or five years into Angel, he loved those characters. He couldn't bear to let them go, and so he's continuing Buffy on in comic book form right now.
|
|
|
Joy
Feb 10, 2008 8:03:58 GMT -5
Post by Giant Michael on Feb 10, 2008 8:03:58 GMT -5
Well, see, I don't mind that, but I do mind your jumping to the conclusion that "people who value good writing and good storytelling tend to be disappointed with Season 6". That statement is offensive to more than half of the fandom. It's the same argument people are using in defense of season six, though, and I think there is some truth in it: the way I see it, season six has a lot of really good episodes, and it has a lot going for it. But, compared to seasons four and five in particular, the arc just wasn't as tightly-plotted, and a lot of the writing falls flat. There are episodes in there that should have been great - 'Hell's Bells' is the first that comes to mind - and parts of them were, but a lot of stuff feels like it was either rush-written, or that the writers just didn't care enough about it. I think things improved in season seven, but they still go off the rails towards the end. I suppose it's a result of Joss overseeing the show in the earlier seasons, but having so much more on his plate towards the end. I hope - when he comes back with Dollhouse - he'll stick to making one show as good as it can be before taking on anything else. MB x
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 10, 2008 9:27:54 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 10, 2008 9:27:54 GMT -5
It's the same argument people are using in defense of season six, though, and I think there is some truth in it: the way I see it, season six has a lot of really good episodes, and it has a lot going for it. But, compared to seasons four and five in particular, the arc just wasn't as tightly-plotted, and a lot of the writing falls flat. Agree about Season 5 (which also happens to be my favourite season), disagree in a huge way about Season 4. Joss himself pointed out that it got a bit chaotic: Joss Whedon: It was sort of a chaotic season, and a lot of people say it's the season where we fell apart, and they don't like it. I actually think it's the season where we did most of our best shows, but it did sort of have a weird incoherence -- as I was talking about the Initiative and other things, you know, a lot of things didn't come together in the big picture. Episode by episode, the strength was pretty much unmatched, but as an arc, I understand why people feel like "Well, it didn't really get me there". That's how I feel about it, too: I love the trees, but I dislike the forest. Season 6, on the other hand, I found pretty balanced by both aspects -- the episodes ( Life Serial, Once More, With Feeling, Tabula Rasa, Dead Things, Seeing Red, Two to Go etc.) and the big picture (as evidenced by the arcs' shocking climax in Seeing Red, and their smooth wrap-up in Grave). I have some thematic issues with it, but overall, it was a very worthy effort. There are episodes in there that should have been great - 'Hell's Bells' is the first that comes to mind - and parts of them were, but a lot of stuff feels like it was either rush-written, or that the writers just didn't care enough about it. That's true of all seasons, though. And Joss overlooks and edits every script, so if there was something he disapproved of, you wouldn't have seen it onscreen. (In Hell's Bells, for example, he rewrote the Spike/Buffy scene himself, because he thought Kirshner's version was too snarky and cold on both sides.) I think things improved in season seven, but they still go off the rails towards the end. I suppose it's a result of Joss overseeing the show in the earlier seasons, but having so much more on his plate towards the end. I've never been a subscriber to the theory that Joss abandoned Buffy in its UPN years. All evidence I've seen points to the contrary: David Fury: For those who doubt, I'm here to say Joss is every bit around. Every day. The ship is still being steered by him, so quit speculating otherwise. J: Okay, now some Buffy questions... You started off as a writer and then you became a showrunner at the beginning of Season 6... Marti Noxon: Yeah, I got promoted to an executive producer and the reality is I was already doing a lot of stuff that I did on Season 6 before, but I got credit for it. And people also thought that meant Joss wasn't around and that just wasn't the case. He was very much around. I can back Marti up on that. I've got cast and crew quotes that mention her in the same breath as Joss from as far back as Season 4. And off the top of my head, I could name a ton of things in Season 6 that were Joss's doing, some of which you wouldn't have guessed (e.g. Tara's death scene in Seeing Red, the balcony scene in Dead Things, the Trio's storyline etc.)
|
|
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 2:00:03 GMT -5
Post by spikeluv13 on Feb 12, 2008 2:00:03 GMT -5
all I can say is that no matter how bad of a season you think buffy had, angel season 4 massacred them all. Let's see how many people agree and how many people yell at me!! hehehehe As for season 4: it was a transition season. going to college, no angel, etc. and hello, willow even went gay! talk about a lot happening. I think there were some great eps, but the overall feel was a bit off. but hey, i would take another season 4 over nothing any day
|
|
Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 9:50:39 GMT -5
Post by Lukee on Feb 12, 2008 9:50:39 GMT -5
Season 6 of Buffy was in my opinion one of the best most well written tv season of our time. I used to say it was the wost season of Buffy but after getting older and re-watching them over and over iv come to realize that it wasn't at all. Some of the best episodes of Buffy where made during season6. It was dark because well hello Buffy just came back from the dead. What did people think was going to happen she just jump back ontot he train of happiness and it will all be forgotten. Her friends dragged her from heaven into hell. When where growing up things are never happy sailing and Buffy showed us that. She had to find her place back in the world, deal with the responsibilities of real life, paying bills, getting a job, social service, rape, drug abuse. That is normal every day stuff for alto if not most people. For people to say it was the crappiest season or that it was too depressing by my view haven seen the real world. It sucks i know but thats it. Theres always going to be something to kick you down when your down. Some can over come it some cant. Buffy showed us that you can over come it. That there are ways to deal with it. As well as looking hot doing it.
|
|
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 12:12:00 GMT -5
Post by henzINNIT on Feb 12, 2008 12:12:00 GMT -5
The characters suffer every season, but I notice everyone dubs 6 as the season of pain.
Season 6 is my mixed bag season. I love only one episode: "Once More With Feeling". The rest are average in my opinion. It's all strung together by a number of great moments but no other episodes stand out; except for Hell Bells, which stands out for being terrible.
|
|
kershmuckit
Potential Slayer
The sound you get when you play golf with pudding
Posts: 135
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 12:25:18 GMT -5
Post by kershmuckit on Feb 12, 2008 12:25:18 GMT -5
Season six is my favourite Buffy season. I remember when it came out everyone called it Season Sux. Hahaha, and i kinda agreed, especially when the sh*t really hit the fan.
But i noticed about a month or so ago, through all my buffy dvds, theres one season that has just been way more loved. (As in it was completely dog eared) Season Six. And i thought..., have i watched it that many times? - and yeah. I really have. It's a very consuming season. Sad, but absorbing.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 12:25:32 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 12, 2008 12:25:32 GMT -5
henz, you thought Tabula Rasa was average? Even Joss lists it as a top 10er, in his second list of favourite episodes. I mean, there were many other brilliant Season 6 episodes, but that's one that makes it to most fans' top 10 list.
|
|
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 13:52:38 GMT -5
Post by henzINNIT on Feb 12, 2008 13:52:38 GMT -5
henz, you thought Tabula Rasa was average? Even Joss lists it as a top 10er, in his second list of favourite episodes. I mean, there were many other brilliant Season 6 episodes, but that's one that makes it to most fans' top 10 list. I did think that, yeah.
|
|
patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 15:47:07 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Feb 12, 2008 15:47:07 GMT -5
Buffy showed us that you can over come it. That there are ways to deal with it. As well as looking hot doing it. The real world is many things, but it doesn't have to be insufferably misearable. Which is what Season Six was. Furthermore, if you want bleak realism, watch The Wire. Keep that crap out of my Buffy, thanks.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 16:17:36 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 12, 2008 16:17:36 GMT -5
Steven S. DeKnight: This season has been much, much darker, much more sexual, and violent. Which is the story that we decided we wanted to tell, as Buffy comes back to life and our whole point was not to cheapen that, to make it really hard for her. That it wasn't gonna be just your standard TV, "oh, she's back, everything's fine, everything's back the way it was".
|
|
Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 16:48:14 GMT -5
Post by Lukee on Feb 12, 2008 16:48:14 GMT -5
Buffy showed us that you can over come it. That there are ways to deal with it. As well as looking hot doing it. The real world is many things, but it doesn't have to be insufferably misearable. Which is what Season Six was. Furthermore, if you want bleak realism, watch The Wire. Keep that crap out of my Buffy, thanks. I said to some people it is. And i stand by that. Not everyone has the good life. Some have it like Buffy did in Season 6. Some have it even worse. [well maybe not the dieing then coming back and the demons and junk]
|
|
kershmuckit
Potential Slayer
The sound you get when you play golf with pudding
Posts: 135
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 17:26:09 GMT -5
Post by kershmuckit on Feb 12, 2008 17:26:09 GMT -5
I originally posted this in issue 11 discussion but i think it's relevant to this topic too so..
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 17:32:54 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 12, 2008 17:32:54 GMT -5
I didn't get the bit about her missing the "connection" either. One would have thought she'd gotten over that in Touched.
Rebecca Rand Kirshner: I mean, it's all about connect -- reconnecting to other people and also to herself. I mean, I think when she's lying on that bed there she's in an abandoned house in an abandoned town and she's all by herself and just completely sort of desolate and disconnected and what Spike does, outside from make a pep talk, is that he connects to her, and I think it was her being able to receive that from him and being affected by him then that allowed her to reconnect to herself and then to be able to reconnect to the others.
|
|
Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
|
Joy
Feb 12, 2008 20:29:26 GMT -5
Post by Lukee on Feb 12, 2008 20:29:26 GMT -5
I originally posted this in issue 11 discussion but i think it's relevant to this topic too so.. I hardly think Buffy getting laid will make her feel any better. It goes deeper then just that and stuff. I mean everyone in her live has left her. Her farther, mother, boyfriends if she not turned them evil, made them leave town or killed and all well if you ever counted Spike as a boyfriend. With the deal of being a slayer too and having no childhood really i think its going to make her messed up and lonely. The connection like Xander said maybe the one who gives it cant feel it. Just because she did that doesn't mean she can feel what the new slayer are feeling. Shes disconnected from her friends, slayers, family and the world... maybe we would be the same if we went through what she did...
|
|