patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Jan 29, 2008 10:11:17 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Jan 29, 2008 10:11:17 GMT -5
Greetings: I was browsing at a comic book message board I regularly frequent and I came across a statement by a fan on the current state of Marvel superhero comics. I quote: "I read the latest Daredevil today at lunch. It was incredibly well-written. But I'm dropping the book. I've come to the realization that nothing good is ever going to happen to Matt Murdoch. And I don't want to keep watching an endless series of horrible things happening to a character I care about. Upon thinking more about it, I realized that's the way I feel about the entire Marvel Universe. There's no heroes in Marvel anymore, only survivors. Nobody triumphs, they only win the latest fight. Nothing gets better for anybody. Nobody is happy. There is no joy in Marvel." I must say that gave expression to a great deal of my thoughts and feelings toward BtVS post Season Six. The senseless whacking of Tara and Willow's subsequent descent into nerd-flaying marked the end of both the sense of the Scoobs as a family (you know, what the series WAS ABOUT), as well as any real sense of fun or joy in the series. All that happens anymore are these endless series of horrible things happening to people I care deeply about, there are no heroes , no triumphs, nothing ever gets better, nobody gets any happier and there is no joy to be found (and no I don't believe for a second Whedon ever intended to resurrect Tara). I realize a lot of fans respond to this and that a lot the time this is how "real life" is Yet, I am kinda of the opinion that art or literature (especially escapist fiction like Buffy) is under NO obligation to reflect "real life" to that soul-killing extreme. If anything I believe what of the key purposes of art is illuminate and even REDEEM our bleak, crummy world totally absent of time travel and jet-powered apes. The most recent issue of Season Eight has kinda confirmed this suspection. Whedon seems to have no interest in healing the divisions between Buffy and Willow and only furthering the rift. I highly doubt they will even be friends anymore by the time issue 25 comes out. I'm going to continue with the fandom for as long as I can, but I'm starting to think it would be less and less of a major loss to get off the bus at any point. I could be entirely wrong about this. Opinions? edit-I am. Thank you all for pointing that out.
|
|
mandikaye
Potential Slayer
Captain Peroxide
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 193
|
Joy
Jan 29, 2008 10:44:23 GMT -5
Post by mandikaye on Jan 29, 2008 10:44:23 GMT -5
I have more faith in Joss than that. Maybe you're right and they won't be friends by issue 25, but I guarantee you they will be by issue 40 or 50. Joss's MO has always been dark times followed by good times, and I just don't see him changing that any time soon.
|
|
|
Joy
Jan 29, 2008 12:24:09 GMT -5
Post by henzINNIT on Jan 29, 2008 12:24:09 GMT -5
I agree with your thoughts on season 6. I always felt that they tried too hard to make everyone's lives suck all at once. Combine that depression with a load of needless comedy and you have season 6.
I was quite annoyed with the further degredation of the core group's relationship in season 7. It wasn't that they had troubles that bothered me really, more that they never seemed to actually get over them like they did in season 4. It went from Buffy - you're out, to welcome back Buffy in an episode, with no explanation. My hope is that this rift and its non-resolution is the reason why things are being visited again in season 8. It's really sad to see how distant Buffy and Giles have become.
|
|
faith0tvs
Novice Witch
I am the Slayer ask me How[Mo0:4]
Posts: 277
|
Joy
Jan 29, 2008 14:52:23 GMT -5
Post by faith0tvs on Jan 29, 2008 14:52:23 GMT -5
hm you seem to forget a few things, frst tara's character is extremely popular , her death caused a proportion of the viewers to either stop watching btvs or being so crazy about it. Secondly do you know that almost every character in Marvel has been ressurected , well with the exception of uncle ben. Why wouldnt whedon play the exact same card with a character?What if only Joyce couldnt be ressurected?Imagine that. Joss is a very intelligent storyteller and he wants to deliver the best stories possible, stories that might dissrrupt some people, just like marvel does .
|
|
commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
|
Joy
Jan 29, 2008 16:03:09 GMT -5
Post by commandercool on Jan 29, 2008 16:03:09 GMT -5
I'm just kind of glad the remaining characters are still alive. Odds are, most of them won't be for long.
|
|
Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
|
Joy
Jan 29, 2008 18:07:13 GMT -5
Post by Lukee on Jan 29, 2008 18:07:13 GMT -5
This is what make Buffy great IMO. I mean its so real to life. Yes they have had many dark times but they have had happy times. Its just in life we tend to only see the Dark times bigger then the happy.
I think Joss was right with how he carried on the scooby gangs family type bond in Season 7. They shouldn't have got over everything for the next season thats not life really. It takes time. And with everything they have gone through things are bound to be hard. There growing and changing and junk happens.
|
|
|
Joy
Feb 7, 2008 16:36:10 GMT -5
Post by spikeluv13 on Feb 7, 2008 16:36:10 GMT -5
buffy got darker as they got older.....that happens. when you are 16 things seem like the end of the world, when really some of that stuff doesn't matter. the problems got more real and bigger, meaner. Everyone goes through that. I am 22 (23 in may), so basically i grew up with buffy. I went through the same (except the actual demons mind you) types of things and it was great to see that buffy and gang were too. If it were all happy, i don;t think people would respect and care as much. my life sucks right now. And if everything was all happy and glowy in the buffy-verse, i think i would be mad. b/c life isn;t like that. and what the heck would joss write about at that point?? I think there will be happy times coming....but we got to build up to that. we have to have our dark season to get to our happier season finale. otherwise, we wouldn't care that they are finally going through something good.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 7, 2008 16:43:29 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 7, 2008 16:43:29 GMT -5
Can't say I ever felt that way. The darker the season was, the more uplifting the note it ended on. Season 6? A revitalized Buffy telling Dawn she wants to "show her" the world, with Sarah McLachlan's "Prayer of St Francis" playing in the background. Season 7? Buffy smiling as she contemplates all the roads unraveled before her, and "what they are going to do now". Even The Gift was cathartic in its own way, even though it wouldn't have made a very fitting ending for a series about female empowerment (as a season ending, on the other hand, it's the best there is).
|
|
moscowwatcher
Potential Slayer
You're the one, Buffy[Mo0:0]
Posts: 106
|
Joy
Feb 7, 2008 18:10:01 GMT -5
Post by moscowwatcher on Feb 7, 2008 18:10:01 GMT -5
I think the crucial point in this statement is poster's assessment of BtVS as "escapist fiction". It's a matter of taste, of course, but I never regarded "Buffy" as escapist According to Wiki en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EscapismEscapism is mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation, as an "escape" from the perceived unpleasant aspects of daily stress. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to try to help relieve feelings of depression or general sadness. Of course people who seek "mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation" are disappointed with season 6. But I believe that "escapism" can hardly be applied to Whedon's work.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 7, 2008 18:14:18 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 7, 2008 18:14:18 GMT -5
*pounces Moscow*
Joss has actually said that he'd rather people "need" this series than "like" it. He strives for emotional resonance, not for feel-good entertainment.
|
|
patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 0:06:41 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Feb 8, 2008 0:06:41 GMT -5
*pounces Moscow* Joss has actually said that he'd rather people "need" this series than "like" it. He strives for emotional resonance, not for feel-good entertainment. That's a very good point: even when I was hating it, I still needed it. And guess what? I still need it.
|
|
patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 0:14:36 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Feb 8, 2008 0:14:36 GMT -5
Of course people who seek "mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation" are disappointed with season 6. That point I must disagree; people who value good writing and good storytelling tend to be disappointed with season 6. Something we have a right to expect from Whedon.
|
|
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 0:30:29 GMT -5
Post by CowboyGuy on Feb 8, 2008 0:30:29 GMT -5
patrick, I think you were on point for posting this, as it has resulted in a good topic. But I don't completely agree with a "joyless" Buffy. Main point is that this series is just getting back on it's feet. Things are being put into motion that will shape up within the planned 40 issues of this season...and then we'll get a ninth season. Willow and Buffy do not hate each other, just that Willow will never choose Buffy over a lover again. She blames herself for what has happened, which I see as a natural progression in the story. Buffy and Xander and doing better than ever! Giles has been drifting away for quite some time. It started in Season 4, so it's not a new thing.
I for one am seeing joy in the new teaming of Faith and Giles. The two of them working together to fight evil is a positive thing. The circumstances by which this has came about aren't so sunny though. Buffy herself has a hard road ahead of her...which we should all expect by now. Joss has even stated "Buffy happy, bad tv...Buffy in pain, good tv".
With that said I'm sure we'll get little happy moments once in a while. Joyous things do not occur daily in most people's lives, let alone superheros. For the most part a hero lives a hard and mostly lonely life. At least Buffy has support around her, at least for the time being.
|
|
moscowwatcher
Potential Slayer
You're the one, Buffy[Mo0:0]
Posts: 106
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 8:24:11 GMT -5
Post by moscowwatcher on Feb 8, 2008 8:24:11 GMT -5
Patrick - I suppose it's a matter of taste. I personally think later seasons are brilliant. They resonate with me more profoundly than earlier seasons. For me, seasons 5-7 are a perfect example of great ideas, great writing and great acting. Yes, all the episodes written post 9/11 (starting with Tabula Rasa) have a different, darker feel to them, but it was inevitable. Joss and his team have created an unforgettable portrait of America at the crossroads, at the time of trials and doubts. Obviously we'll never agree on the later seasons artistic values, so let's just agree to disagree. And - thank you for luring me out of lurkdom. Were it not for your post I'd stay a lurker.
|
|
Enisy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 643
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 9:35:21 GMT -5
Post by Enisy on Feb 8, 2008 9:35:21 GMT -5
That point I must disagree; people who value good writing and good storytelling tend to be disappointed with season 6. Can I call that presumptuous? I'll call that presumptuous. Personally, I thought Season 6 was unparalleled in its Campbellian undertones and its daring exploration of dark sexuality and human villainy. It suffered from "most recent season syndrome" at the time it aired -- "the audience always hates the current season", Joss Whedon put it; "we heard it last year, too ... and now people are going 'Oh, we love Glory'", David Fury put it -- but it has recovered big time since then. It was recently elected "Best Season" on BF, and Joss Whedon himself "loves Season 6" and "thinks a lot of the best episodes they ever did were in Season 6".
|
|
mandikaye
Potential Slayer
Captain Peroxide
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 193
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 11:10:22 GMT -5
Post by mandikaye on Feb 8, 2008 11:10:22 GMT -5
I have to agree that Seasons 5-7 were the best. For me, it's hard to choose between them because they all have their merits. As do Seasons 1-4 (although for awhile, I was afraid Season 3 had jumped the shark after watching "Anne").
When the Scoobies were in high school, everything had a lighter feel to it. Sure, they had to save the world. A lot. But they were battling more physical demons than their own inner demons. The later seasons deal a lot more with inner demons (Willow, for example, or Buffy losing her leadership in S7). That's a natural progression, I think, as everyone was getting older.
|
|
matthewblake
Respected Watcher
Is it bright where you are?[Mo0:0]
Posts: 588
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 13:47:50 GMT -5
Post by matthewblake on Feb 8, 2008 13:47:50 GMT -5
I loved watching these characters go through their struggles. Some of our favorite episodes deal with a major change or death of a character.
As far as Buffy and Willow's relationship...
A friend and I had a "falling out" last year and weren't even speaking. But when I had a death in the family, he was the first person I called. Even though we don't fit in each other's lives at the moment, I know he will always be there for me. Many people have come and gone from my life but I still love them. And also, now that Buffy and Willow are growing up, their not going to have that daily contact they once had. That is just inevitable.
sorry for the rambling!
|
|
commandercool
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
DON'T PANIC![Mo0:37]
Posts: 744
|
Joy
Feb 8, 2008 14:43:03 GMT -5
Post by commandercool on Feb 8, 2008 14:43:03 GMT -5
I don't know if I would call seasons 6 and 7 my favorites, but they were definetely awesome. When I think of Buffy (which is a lot), it's seasons 6-8 that usually occur to me first.
|
|
patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Feb 9, 2008 1:18:12 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Feb 9, 2008 1:18:12 GMT -5
That point I must disagree; people who value good writing and good storytelling tend to be disappointed with season 6. Can I call that presumptuous? I'll call that presumptuous. Personally, I thought Season 6 was unparalleled in its Campbellian undertones and its daring exploration of dark sexuality and human villainy. It suffered from "most recent season syndrome" at the time it aired -- "the audience always hates the current season", Joss Whedon put it; "we heard it last year, too ... and now people are going 'Oh, we love Glory'", David Fury put it -- but it has recovered big time since then. It was recently elected "Best Season" on BF, and Joss Whedon himself "loves Season 6" and "thinks a lot of the best episodes they ever did were in Season 6". It goes without saying that I disagree with everything in that statement. What is BF? Never heard of them. If Joss loved Season Six, I think that speaks volumes about him. Agree to disagree.
|
|
patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
|
Joy
Feb 9, 2008 1:21:16 GMT -5
Post by patrick on Feb 9, 2008 1:21:16 GMT -5
i think season 6 was the best season Buffy ever had. The writing was phenomenal and gutsy, and it stabbed us all in the hearts. That's what a real writer does. That's what a GOOD writer does. I loved it, and always will. I hate it and I always will. Speaking from an entirely personal level, a) I care far too much for these characters, b) I cannot stand to watch them suffer like they did. c) As far as I can see, Whedon had no other point in that season than to make them suffer. Agree to disagree.
|
|