Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 12, 2008 14:17:07 GMT -5
^ For sure, that's what I said from the beginning. It's a brilliant story and I enjoy reading, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter if its canon or not. Maybe it's because I'm also a Trek fan I can get a bit anal about canon sometimes
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Post by Brian Lynch on Dec 12, 2008 14:53:11 GMT -5
Thank you, Ethros!
I have an idea for a FOURTH (and maybe final, for me) SPIKE series. I've ran ran it by Chris, but not by Mr. Whedon. I could care less if it's canon, I just want it to be awesome. If Joss, Mutant Enemy and James Marsters all declared it canon but I thought it sucked, I wouldn't do it. If when I write it I love it, we'll do it, canon or not.
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Post by vampireinrug on Dec 12, 2008 15:43:14 GMT -5
A fourth Lynch and Spike adventure? I'll be looking forward to that, especially if Urru does the art again.
Has anyone else read Spike vs Dracula? I loved it, and would like to see a sequal to that one day. Dracula seemed pretty peeved at Angel by the end of it.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Dec 12, 2008 15:50:35 GMT -5
I loved Spike & Dracula, awesome. But I think that was because of the writing, we could have taken away Dracula. Never cared for him.
And Brian, final Spike-story? I really love how you handle Spike's inner dialouge and you-you... no. Keep writing. You capture him so well.
EDIT- Did that lats sentence make any sense? I think I missused the original phrase "capture one's expressions"
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 15, 2008 12:28:15 GMT -5
it fits into the timeline directly after "Smile Time." Give me one example of how it CANNOT fit into the timeline, and I promise you I'll refute it. Give me one example of how it CANNOT fit into the timeline, and I promise you I'll refute it. Directly after 'Smile Time' you say? Well it has Illyria in it for one. And in 'A Hole in the World' Spike says he's never flown before. Points to Ethros- 2 Points to Patxshand- 0 Touche there, forgot about the Illyria appearance. "Asylum" is the one that fits after "Smile Time." "Shadow Puppets" fits anywhere after "Shells." So, still, mondo points to me... negatory for you, my bickery friend. And, either way, even if it's not canon (it is), Brian's right. It's a great story, so nevermind the canonical question. But yeah. It fits nicely into canon. Nothing in it contradicts anything.
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 15, 2008 17:59:14 GMT -5
So, still, mondo points to me... negatory for you, my bickery friend. Not sure how, seen as I destroyed your whole orignal argument. btw I realise this whole thread probably makes me look an asshole, but still, I'm right I say feel free for anyone to personally declare it canon if they wish, but you're still wrong- "officially" it isn't canon. One could ADORE a story from the original Dark Horse Buffy comics (now feat in the Omnibus') and love it so much you may declare it canon. And if you want to do that fine, but officially it nein canon And actually if Asylum were to be in Angel Season 5, it would make more sense to have it around the time Spike is doing the whole Dark-Avenger-Angel-in-Season-1-thing-led-by-Doyle-faux-Lindsey. ie during that 'Soul Purpose', 'Damage', 'You're Welcome' era Canon, canon, canon, canon, canon, canon... I've said that word about 10 times so far in this post. Thought I might as well say it some more
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Post by Emmie on Dec 15, 2008 18:15:15 GMT -5
I don't really think it's a rock solid argument to say that Shadow Puppets and Asylum retroactively become canon because Lynch wrote them and is now writing After the Fall which is considered canon. That's like saying all the Buffy comics (the ones that don't contradict BtVS events) written before Season 8 became canon because some of the BtVS writers wrote them and *now* there's a canon Season 8 where the BtVS writers are also writing issues. Just because the story doesn't contradict the AtS timeline doesn't make it canon. It makes it a great accompanying piece because they are (in fact) great stories, but it doesn't retroactively make them canon.
And the whole "Big Deal" about saying the word canon is really annoying to me. And I mean the "Big Deal" being made about not being able to say it. I'll say canon and discuss canon all I want to and everyone here should feel free to as well. If anyone gets tired of reading posts about canon, read another thread or bypass those posts.
I'm able to discuss canon and *still* appreciate the great stories that are considered non-canon. Canon is useful for discussions regarding in-depth character analysis and development. So yeah, canon canon canon canon.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 15, 2008 20:30:43 GMT -5
So, still, mondo points to me... negatory for you, my bickery friend. Not sure how, seen as I destroyed your whole orignal argument. How's that? This is how the convo went. ETHROS: There's no way Shadow Puppets can fit in. Evarrrrrr! Grrr, stomp, mash, stomp, boom. PAT: It could fit right after "Smile Time." ETHROS: Grrr. Argh! No! Illyria is in it. Crash mash! PAT: Oh, right. That's "Asylum." "Shadow Puppets" can fit right after "Shells" then, or anywhere in the latter arc of Season Five. ETHROS: I win! Can't proove it, though, but *makes raspberry* Nawwww. I really missed VBG, though. Suddenly, for some reason, I feel like her place has been filled... What? "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" have been referenced. The argument can definitely be made that they're retroactively canon, especially with Brian Lynch's statement that "They're pretty much canon, no?" over at Whedonesque. But in the end... Does the canon question matter? Of course not. I just wanted to step in when I saw you say that they don't fit in the Season Five timeline... because they absolutely do. Yes, it would. Anywhere around there, or after there. Especially after there. When he found out that Lindsey's plan wasn't really about him at al, that might have inspired him to be even more separate from Angel. Like in "Asylum." This debate is such canon. All other debates are ancillary.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 15, 2008 20:39:22 GMT -5
"Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" have been referenced. The argument can definitely be made that they're retroactively canon, especially with Brian Lynch's statement that "They're pretty much canon, no?" over at Whedonesque. The characters were referenced, so theoretically Spike met Betta George in a way that could resemble what happened in Asylum. But references don't make it canon. And the argument that references make it retroactively canon feel like cheating to me, like trying to slip it in. The only authority, the one authority that is always recognized, is when Joss says it counts or his name is attached to the piece and he has creative input. Joss is the Pope of Buffyanity. He's the head of the Buffyverse Church. And I feel kind of like a jerk now for arguing this, but canon to me is something that is universally defined. Though some choose to subscribe to the belief that one can determine their own canon individually. But universal canon in the Buffyverse is determined by one voice really and that's Joss Whedon. He's the one who has the power to make a Buffy movie and de-canonize Season 8 or even make an Angel movie and de-canonize After the Fall. *Any* other person who created a movie that contradicted the comics, if Joss didn't say that the movie now took precedent over the comics, the movie would technically be a non-canon work. ETA: I'm thinking about adding the line "CANON CANON CANON CANON CANON CANON CANON" to my signature now just to be annoying. ;D
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 15, 2008 20:46:03 GMT -5
Rarely happens, but I disagree with you, Emmie.
As I said, though, I don't believe "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" are solid canon. I DO think that they're "what happened" in the 'verse, and that's been said by Lynch, but I don't think they're essential to understanding the 'verse. So, to me, they're debatable canon. They've been referenced, said to be "pretty much canon, no?" by the closest source we're ever gonna get, and canon level quality. That's definitely enough for it to be considered canon--at the very least debatable canon--in my mind.
But as far as Joss being the only one who can say something is canon, I agree... to an extent. It's unrealistic to think Joss will step in every time (or ever) to tell us when something is canon. He hardly spoke about the canonicty of "After the Fall," but Ryall and Lynch and the little we know of what Joss said are more than enough for the fandom. Because IDW is now the home of Angel, and if they say it's canon, it's canon. People, now more than ever, speak for Joss. Scott Allie and Brett Matthews said that the Serenity comics are canon, so they're canon. As much as Joss is indeed the "pope" (I hate comparing Whedon to lesser men, though) of the 'verse, other people can and have spoken for him, and I definitely take they're word on it.
It's how we know "Aftermath" is canon.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 15, 2008 20:52:29 GMT -5
Lynch is a canon author for After the Fall. There's really no argument that says that Lynch can determine the past canonicity of his past works. Lynch being "the closest source we're ever gonna get" doesn't establish authority on it. Is Jane Espenson going to come out and say selected issues from the past DH Buffy comics are canon? It's essentially the same argument as Lynch declaring canon.
The only way that IDW and Lynch could be deemed the head of determining the canon of ANGEL is when Joss washes his hands of the property or verbally says, yeah their authority on these works is now *the* story for what's really happening.
Joss Whedon: "Speaking of Darkhorse Comics, they are starting a new Buffy comic, and as I understand it, it will take place after the end of Buffy and Angel and be canon in the Buffy world. And I understand it that way 'cause I'M WRITING IT."
Season 8 became canon because Joss said it was canon. After the Fall became canon because Joss said it was canon. Everything else you can personally view as canon or call it debated canon/contested canon. But you're playing with a weaker hand there.
The Serenity comics have Joss Whedon's name attached to them. He's credited for the story so it's legitimate canon there also.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 15, 2008 20:57:22 GMT -5
I agree to an extent, but Joss's name doesn't equal canon.
He wrote "Long Night's Journey" with Brett Matthews... but it ain't canon. Same deal as the "Serenity" comics, except the Dark Horse team came out and said it was canon. So, to me, that is solid canon.
All I'm saying is that "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" are, at least, debated canon, because not only were both referenced in canonical works and used as catalysts for the character development in "Spike: After the Fall" (solid, unquestionable canon), but an author has also said they can be accepted as canon. It might not be enough for some people, and I totally get that. But for me, it's more than enough.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 15, 2008 20:58:23 GMT -5
Joss' name and declaring it canon count though.
See my main problem with retroactive canon is it changes what we knew to have happened as canon during Season 5. And that's a huge retcon of the 'verse's reality. Only one person IMO can do that huge of a retcon and that's because he's the creator. Joss Whedon can go around and say 'Oh well this is how it *really* happened' because he owns that 'verse. It's his child and he gets to play with it with that freedom. I don't see any other canon author of the 'verse possessing the authority to re-write the canon history as we know it.
Other writers who are establishing the canon of the 'verse right now and the official continuation are doing so with Joss' permission. That's permission to officially continue the story, not retcon the story he and his writers already told.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Dec 15, 2008 21:01:24 GMT -5
What's the story about VBG?
Because a member over at Buffy Boards, out of nowhere, stared trashing me in a thread, saying I shouldn't be there, I was mean, we were talking crap about Buffy Boards over here, and because that member joined one month before me, I was stalking him/her.
The member was named VGB.
I thought it was Venus first, because the custom title said; "Venus Doom", but now I wonder...
I hardly remember VGB you see.
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Post by VampSlayer on Dec 15, 2008 21:05:47 GMT -5
I saw both of these comics in the book store the other day... I didn't get them. And I had my money with me. I wanted to get them, but I just didn't for some reason... But I did look over both of them. I loved the Fred/Illyria puppet scenes in the one. xD Also, I loved the look of the Lorne puppet. And Betta looked so awesome as a puppet. At first when I saw him(not knowing he was a puppet) I said,"Wtf.. Why does George look so weird in this one???" xD But once I read he was a 'puppet fish' I loved my butt off. Maybe I should go back to that store, and hope they are still there... THEY WERE IN PERFECT CONDITION TOO!!!
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Post by wenxina on Dec 15, 2008 21:07:25 GMT -5
VBG was a problematic member we had around the same time we had a sudden influx of crazies (i.e. venus). She was banned. End of story.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Dec 15, 2008 21:22:39 GMT -5
I saw both of these comics in the book store the other day... I didn't get them. And I had my money with me. I wanted to get them, but I just didn't for some reason... But I did look over both of them. I loved the Fred/Illyria puppet scenes in the one. xD Also, I loved the look of the Lorne puppet. And Betta looked so awesome as a puppet. At first when I saw him(not knowing he was a puppet) I said,"Wtf.. Why does George look so weird in this one???" xD But once I read he was a 'puppet fish' I loved my butt off. Maybe I should go back to that store, and hope they are still there... THEY WERE IN PERFECT CONDITION TOO!!! You should get them, I heard they're awesome!
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Post by Emmie on Dec 15, 2008 21:24:50 GMT -5
In all the canon arguing, allow me to also say yes they really are awesome.
I think I'm going to let the canon topic rest now. It seems to either make the person arguing it look like a jerk or feel like one. Maybe both. Probably both.
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 16, 2008 10:26:11 GMT -5
^ Mmm, agreed. I'm pretty bored of this argument now, as all I'm really doing is demonstrating the basic rules of canonicity, and some folk just aren't responding to basic logic (I know how Keanu Klaatu felt) I don't think I've done anything of the sort of trolling or otherwise, and I seriously resent the implication. Yes I use the word "frak", its a word I use a lot on message boards, A. because its fun to say, and B. because it doesn't offend anyone. I could use the alternative F-word if you prefer but I don't. And when I used comments like the "Points to me" thing I use smilies after it (notably the wink one) to know I'm not being overly serious. Yet if you choose to take it that way then that is your problem. I've no idea who VBG is, nor do I care. I don't hang around on this board that much. I assume it was some trolling poster or somesuch. But if you believe arguing ones logical point which is what I've done is considered trolling simply because you don't agree with it then I don't know what to think. If that is the case the average age of users on this board must be about 9
And just to clear it up all I was saying is was the conversation went like this. I said- "how the frak does Shadow Puppets fit into the timeline?" And you replied I quote "it fits into the timeline directly after "Smile Time." Give me one example of how it CANNOT fit into the timeline, and I promise you I'll refute it. " Again, "I promise you I'll refute it"... Well I gave you two prime examples off the top of my head, and yet, indeed as you say, you still refuted it, claiming that *I* was still in the wrong.
Then you went to insult me later on a few posts above. But yet, of course *I* am still the troll...
I'm not sure if this is some effort to suck up to Brian Lynch? As I said it doesn't matter if the tales are canon for terms of quality and enjoyment. The likes of say Christopher Golden has written dozens of Buffy stories for novels and comics, yet not a single one is canon, yet I don't think he goes to sleep crying over it every night.
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Post by henzINNIT on Dec 16, 2008 10:51:49 GMT -5
Spike: After the Fall isn't cannon anyway is it? (fuels fire)
I find it so funny how people get hung up on cannon when Brian Lynch, the writer of said comics, doesn't even care. Even Joss Whedon himself seems pretty chilled about his comic's cannon status, saying quite openly that if a Buffy movie was to happen he'd happily disgard his own comic in its wake.
Fact is, everything beyond the TV series themselves is an extension of the story we knew and loved. We as fans make the choice to take on this other material, but even from the highest of sources, it exists in a different world. Fans can argue Season 8's status into the ground but you can bet if Buffy was to make a live action return the comic stories would go out the window. They'd have to. What does it mean? Nothing. Read what you want to read and hold on to what you enjoy. The problem with cannon has only sprung up since Season 8 started and a load of new fans made the jump in my opinion, because some people need to be reassured it's like super duper official to commit.
Having said that, Ethros is right. Asylum and Shadow Puppets aren't cannon. They weren't stories written to be cannon. It's a blurry line however, as Joss seemed to think a lot of them regardless; enough to have Lynch now writing cannon. If that's not enough for some people , then so be it.
I've been pondering buying the other Lynch stories before but they're not hardcover are they?
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