|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 5, 2010 8:54:27 GMT -5
Bearing in mind that there is still one more issue in which some revelations might be made, it's interesting to compare the "Last Gleaming" apocalypse with the one described in "Fray."
There are some inconsistencies. Urkonn tells Mel that this apocalypse resulted in all demons being banished from our dimension, and that the Slayer line faded out as a result of not being needed anymore. But in season 8, it seems only those demons who were summoned by Twilight got sucked back to Hell... many others (natives of this world, vampires, and demons who had previously arrived from outside) stay.
Urkonn also says of the Slayers, "the line continued... there were girls with the power, but they were never called, never trained." This doesn't square with what we've been shown in season 8, where the magic to call new Slayers no longer exists. Urkonn himself said that "all magicks" were banished from this dimension in the apocalypse, which would mean no new Slayers.
There was a panel showing a woman's arm disappearing into a portal, with the implication being that it was the Slayer's (Buffy's). But that hasn't happened yet in season 8.
And there's no explanation as to why or how the demons and vampires (and Slayers) returned in Fray's time.
I'm theorizing that it's Willow who goes through that portal at some point, to a world (Aluwyn's?) where she can get her magic back. Then, after a couple hundred years (which may be a much shorter time from her perspective), she returns to this world with a new Seed and a new Scythe, and the magic and demons and Slayers return with her.
|
|
moscowwatcher
Potential Slayer
You're the one, Buffy[Mo0:0]
Posts: 106
|
Post by moscowwatcher on Dec 5, 2010 10:41:42 GMT -5
AndrewCrossett - interesting specs. I, too, have a suspicion that "no more magic" is a temporary plot device. Sooner or later Joss will send Willow further on her path and I'm sure that her journey will be amazing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
My review:
The issue is emotional and epic; it kicks ass and pushes all the right buttons - as long as you don't try to analyse the plot. Because it absolutely doesn't make sense. Case in point: Buffy's sudden decision to break the seed. Funnily, everybody else - Willow, Aluwin, Xander, Giles - knew that breaking the seed will banish all magic on Earth. But nobody told Buffy. Well, maybe Spike told her when she was daydreaming about Spuffy sex - but she didn't hear him. She was clueless (most likely due to co-writers' miscommunication). Another problem is overcrowding the story with characters that don't have any reason to be there except Joss wanting to make the finale epic. The main players are Buffy, Angel, Giles and Willow; the rest of the characters just stand on the sidelines not doing anything in particular. And - the "vagina dentata" monster is hilariously tacky.
But - do we watch and read BtVS because of the plots and monsters? Joss fascinates us with his larger-than-life characters making larger-than-life mistakes and paying for them - and here we have everything that makes BtVS stellar - pathos (Giles' death is heartbreaking); humor (Buffy to Angel and Spike: "I liked it better when you were kissing" Spike: "I'm fairly certain I never mentioned...") and epic character journeys.
Buffy. She falls hard, and her defeat roots deeply in her character. She's not an alpha. She's at her best when she works outside the system, when she defied the authorities, when she subverts the rules. But in season 8 she's forced to be the one who creates a system, who writes her rules and who becomes the authority. Anyway, it's not her thing. She's not cut to be a boss. She can't be a general because she cares too much. She loves too much. The softest muscle in her body is her heart. Love is her greatest gift as a person and her biggest flaw as a general. Angel here is the personification of her problems: the love that leads to disaster. As the story ends, the question remains - has she learned her lessons and closed her heart completely? And, if not, who will help her to heal her physical and emotional wounds? In any case, her story in season 9 has great potential.
Angel. I may be in the minority here, but in my opinion Angel's arc perfectly continues and develops his journey on the show. The shadow of Drogyn looms over the whole Twilight arc. Angel always wanted to be a savior yet sacrificed people on the altar of the "greater good", because he's a big-picture guy. Here his big picture mentality is raised on a global level. Angel's greatest flaw is hubris, and turning into a monster is his cosmic revenge: he became everything he hated and despised. Could there be a bigger punishment? Angel's further journey can be epic. As my LJ friend Shapinglight said once, Joss deconstructs the Angel he doesn't understand to build the Angel he understands. My take is that Joss deconstructs the Angel he isnt interested in to build the Angel he wants to explore. Angel the mission's boyfriend is no more. Angel the flawed, tragic, existential hero has risen.
Giles. The last great watcher. Sacrificed himself in the battle of Starbucks. It was a perfect exit. A fitting, heroic death - helping Buffy to stop the apocalypse, with a slayer weapon in his hands. My heart hurts for Giles - but, cerebrally, I understand that his death was long overdue. Every hero journey includes the death of the hero's menthor. Dumbledor, Obi Wan Kenobi, John Winchester die so that Harry, Luc, Dean and Sam could grow up. There are exceptions, of course - Gandalf who died and got resurrected. So who knows, maybe Giles has reunited with Ethan in their dreamspace and will be back in season 8 as Buffy's mystical guide.
Faith. Many fans have suggested that Faith could be Angel's guide on his path to redemption. Agree - such arc would've informed their dynamics with a perfect symmetry. My only gripe about it is that they're too similar - both are dark, intense, brooding. Angel is the most interesting when he's in a scene with Cordy or Spike - somebody with an opposite personality. But Faith has chemistry with practically everybody - so, if Joss plans to add her to AtS as a regular, it could work great.
Willow. Could she save the world by joining her magic with the Seed's power? Xander and Andrew think that they're losing the war - but they can't know for sure. Willow definitely doesn't think they're losing until the Seed is broken. I think it will be the future bone of contention between her and Buffy. Willow could accuse Buffy that she, Willow, had a chance to win the war and to heal the Earth, and to fix everything, and maybe even resurrect Giles - but Buffy's actions made it impossible. And we'll never know if it's true or Willow is delusional. And Buffy still doesn't know that Willow didn't tell her that destroying the Seed was an option. An option that could prevent many deaths including Giles'. Great set-up for the next season. Besides, Kennedy's line "Baby, lie still, I think you broke..." may mean that wheelchair-bound Muffit in "Willow" one-shot was an ominous foreshadowing.
Xander. I feel underwhelmed, frankly, because the previous issue clearly set him up as the destroyer of the Seed. But it's curious that Giles decision to act echoes Xander's own concerns in "Becoming 2" that prompted his much-argued "kick his ass" line. "Xander, it's Angel." Giles says. "At the very least she - she'll hesitate. She wants to stop him, not to kill him." This little exchange casts a different light on "Becoming 2" and it's a really great call-back.
Dawn. I don't know what's her role in this story. In the latest interview Allie said that there will be more deaths, and Dawn is the prime candidate. First, because she has a nice, healthy relationship with Xander. Second, because her death will hit hard both Buffy and Xander, straining their relationship. Third, because, judging by season 8, Joss doesn't know what to do with Dawn and doesn't have more stories for her. And, fourth, because her death at the time of the destruction of the seed will create an eternal mystery: did she die because of her wounds or because of the broken Seed? It would be a perfect exit. (Update: Except Allie said in a TFAW interview that Dawn is okay. )
Seasonal theme. According to Scott Allie, the theme of the season is betrayal. I think it's one of the themes, but not the main one. To me season 8 was about the power corrupting and destroying even the best heroes and champions. On the narrative level Joss used the theme to return to BtVS roots, to make his show as lean and mean as it was in season 1, to get rid of 2000 of annoying extras nobody cared about. Vintage Buffy is an outsider. To tell new stories about her Joss had to return her to her initial status - and he succeeded.
Twilight. There is a lot of interpretations of what Twilight stands for. Maybe because I'm a ficwriter, I interpret Twilight as a metaphor of fanon trying to destroy canon. A paradize, created by smut writers that threatens to melt and devour "official", canonical universe. Fanon is a place where characters can be happy, don't have conflicts, can shape reality according to their wishes. But Happy Reality not a healthy place for a storyteller. To tell a compelling story you need conflict. Of course, I remember that Joss encourages fans to write fanfiction - but he could give us a subliminal warning about the danger of a conflict-less universe that has a tendency to turn characters into puppets.
And, as a ficwriter, I'm incredibly happy about the Seed of Wonder. Just think of it, my fellow ficwriters - it was there, in the underground caves, all the time, unguarded since The Master's death in Prophecy Girl till the end of the TV show. It canonically justifies any outlandish plot twist a writer comes up with - just make a character get lost in the tunnels, see a strange red orb and say something indiscreet in its presence. Thank you, Joss!
And, last but not least...
Spike. Not his season, not his story - yet he has he been brought to the finale. I think it happened for the same reason that Joss included him in his threesome panel in issue #3. To remind us that Spike is still in Buffy's heart. That Buffy is still Spike's hero. To show us that they profoundly care about each other and are perfect morons when it comes to their feelings. That Buffy is very angry that Spike didn't contact her. That he is very angry at her for space-frak. These two crazy kids are king and queen of miscommunication. It will be interesting to see what else Joss plans to do with them. They have a ton of unresolved issues, oceans of UST and it's obvious that their chemistry transcends mediums. And, BTW, his reaction "She did it. Slayer, you did it" implies that it was the plan he was talking about while Buffy was daydreaming.
No, I don't think there will be flowers and puppies for Spuffy in the future. May I remind you about a classic Joss scene in Serenity? It's obvious that Mal loves Inara and Inara loves Mal. Their UST is so thick you can cut it with a knife. But she leaves and then a bad guy makes a trap for Mal and forces Inara to call him and to lure into a trap. Mal's reaction after their conversation:
That's my Spuffy. Always snarking and bantering. Always honest with each other about everything but their hearts' desires. Always destined to dance around each other, afraid to approach too closely. Always teasing us with millions of "what-ifs".
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Dec 5, 2010 13:04:59 GMT -5
So the Angel that we saw for 5 years on his show, and in his own comic - Joss isn't 'interested' in?This is why I have been saying Joss should stay away from the character - other writers understood and where interested in him...let them write him!
|
|
|
Post by krazyxxxdj on Dec 5, 2010 15:48:21 GMT -5
I love everyone's reviews, there's one thing I am reading differently, though, than others I guess.
The way I read it, Giles didn't "sacrifice" himself. He knew he *could* die, that he *might* die, but I honestly don't think he was expecting it. To me, it read like Giles was going for the Seed while Buffy and Angel were distracted fighting each other, and he was just going to take it out quickly while no one was paying attention. I think that Angel snatching him from behind was quick and unexpected by Giles, adding to the shock and horror of his being murdered.
If Giles had actually intended to sacrifice himself, he would have went straight for Angel.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Dec 5, 2010 15:50:35 GMT -5
I think I'll wait and see where Joss decides to take Angel before I decide that he isn't "interested" or doesn't "understand" his own character.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Dec 5, 2010 16:30:59 GMT -5
I think I'll wait and see where Joss decides to take Angel before I decide that he isn't "interested" or doesn't "understand" his own character. I think his storyline in Season 8 has shown me all I need to know.And as far as I am concerned he is not his creation.He is David Greenwalt's and Tim Minear's and all the other writers who wrote him so well. If Joss "knew" Angel he would not have written him the way he has. This is not the Angel I know and love.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Dec 5, 2010 16:51:12 GMT -5
This is not the Angel I know and love. No, because this is probably a radical new direction for the character. Something which has been lacking for a long time now. I'm not saying I like it (yet), but I'm interested in seeing where this is going.
|
|
|
Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 5, 2010 17:00:02 GMT -5
All I will say is that, as "Sanctuary" and "Orpheus" showed us, Angel and Faith are two badly broken people who tend to be very good for each other. Almost the opposite of the Angel/Buffy disaster.
Season 9 may be a journey they take together. Possibly as a romantic couple, although I kind of hope not as that would be predictable and a distraction. Angel's curse is almost certainly moot now, though I'm pretty sure he won 't be getting anywhere near "perfect happiness" anytime soon anyway.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Dec 5, 2010 17:22:46 GMT -5
This is not the Angel I know and love. No, because this is probably a radical new direction for the character. Something which has been lacking for a long time now. I'm not saying I like it (yet), but I'm interested in seeing where this is going. I guess I could buy it if Whedon had given us some better context where Angel would choose this path he has chosen.But until Whedon can show why Angel would leave his son the (I can't repeat this enough) Most Important thing in the world to him I cannot accept or understand this plot. If one was a Buffy fan who never watched an episode of AtS, and just knew Angel wads in LA 'doing some stuff' then this plot would probably work perfectly. But knowing the character and his attitude to the PTB and prophecies etc after the events of the Jasmine arc, I need to see HOW Angel got to the point of accepting the Twilight plan. But we were not sufficiently shown it.And I doubt we ever will be.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Dec 5, 2010 17:26:20 GMT -5
The IDW books are supposed to kinda lead to that point. IIRC, I don't think they'll lead directly to the Twilight deal, but we should see some context.
|
|
|
Post by angeliclestat on Dec 5, 2010 17:36:02 GMT -5
I think Mariah Huenher said in an interview that they would be dropping 'hints' but would not be exclusively telling that story.They are wrapping up their own stories.
But there were enough issues in Season 8 to do that.And look I am not a fool-it's Buffys story and has to be all about her.I understand that.But if you are going to make such huge changes in a character like Joss has done with Angel-then you can't just do it without explanation or context.
40 issues in Season 8 and there are still plot threads left dangling. Scott Allie said they did not have time to address certain things.Really?40 issues and not enough time.Really?
|
|
|
Post by DorothyFan1 on Dec 5, 2010 17:42:41 GMT -5
So..any predictions on the "6 months have passed" deal coming up for issue 40?
According to what we know...Buffy will be chasing down a vampire in San Francisco. Most likely Harmony. Coincidence or not it's also where Kennedy and Willow have their residence. But that's speculation at this point.
The comment that Kennedy gives to Willow: "Lie still..." suggests to me Willow could very well have been severely injured from the 50 foot downfall. Repercussions?
My prediction: the Muffitt character we saw in Goddesses and Monsters could be foreshadowing about what happens to Willow. Willow may have broken her lower back and is confined to a wheelchair. The imagery I have is Professor Xavier of the Xmen franchise. This may have been an intentional signal from Joss. Just my speculation though.
Another possible clue involving Willow is her "lack" of powers. I think Willow is going to get some kind of compensation. I've heard suggestions she gets telepathic powers. Again, like Professor Xavier of XMen. Most likely this is pure fan wanking but you never know. Anyway, we've got til Jan 19th 2011 to ponder over the possibilities.
Any thoughts on this or other observations?
|
|
Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Dec 5, 2010 18:37:12 GMT -5
All I will say is that, as "Sanctuary" and "Orpheus" showed us, Angel and Faith are two badly broken people who tend to be very good for each other. Almost the opposite of the Angel/Buffy disaster. Season 9 may be a journey they take together. Possibly as a romantic couple, although I kind of hope not as that would be predictable and a distraction. Angel's curse is almost certainly moot now, though I'm pretty sure he won 't be getting anywhere near "perfect happiness" anytime soon anyway. I'm following an account on Tumblr, an avid Fangel shipper, who is very excited about this prospect. I don't know about romance between them, but now more than ever, Faith and Angel need stories together again. They complement each other very well.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Dec 5, 2010 20:14:00 GMT -5
Urkonn also says of the Slayers, "the line continued... there were girls with the power, but they were never called, never trained." This doesn't square with what we've been shown in season 8, where the magic to call new Slayers no longer exists. Urkonn himself said that "all magicks" were banished from this dimension in the apocalypse, which would mean no new Slayers. I think it's a bit unclear what it means to be Called, to be Chosen. Perhaps it's more that the mystical connection, the chain, is broken. So the mystical essence of being Called to a greater purpose is lost. Power without mystical purpose. But it's unclear how this occurs in a practical sense. Or it's simply that the Chosen spell wasn't creating power, but rather removing the Shadowmen's magic, unlocking their limiting spell. So now every Potential will become a Slayer when she's ready. It's not something that magically snaps when she's at the right age. It's inside her and she activates her own power herself. In that instance, no magic is needed for the Slayer line to continue. Because the magic exists in the individual, it's not sustained by magic or awakened by magic; it's bonded to a life force. If you can be born with Potential, then you will eventually become a Slayer. It's a magic that is self-perpetuating because of the cycle of life. There was a panel showing a woman's arm disappearing into a portal, with the implication being that it was the Slayer's (Buffy's). But that hasn't happened yet in season 8. I'm wondering if it'll happen in #40. And there's no explanation as to why or how the demons and vampires (and Slayers) returned in Fray's time. The native demons and vampires never leave our world, so they never have to return. They apparently dwindle in numbers, but they persist and eventually are known as lurks. The demons in Fray's time are trying to reopen the gateways to let the banished demons return or even let demons in other dimensions come to conquer Earth. One thing though is that magic does still exist in a diminished capacity in the world during Fray's time. Otherwise Willow wouldn't be able to create spells and Harth wouldn't have been turned into a vampire. I don't think we really know what it means for the Seed of Wonder to be destroyed. Perhaps the remnants of magic live on for centuries the way a dying star's light exists for millions of years after the source of its light has been extinguished. I'm theorizing that it's Willow who goes through that portal at some point, to a world (Aluwyn's?) where she can get her magic back. Then, after a couple hundred years (which may be a much shorter time from her perspective), she returns to this world with a new Seed and a new Scythe, and the magic and demons and Slayers return with her. Yeah, it does seem to me like Willow is being set on a mission to restore magic to the world. Though I'm not sure we're going to be getting a new Seed per se. Personally, I'm interested in seeing the story go forward without magic and the Seed of Wonder.
|
|
|
Post by VampSlayer on Dec 5, 2010 20:44:39 GMT -5
The comment that Kennedy gives to Willow: "Lie still..." suggests to me Willow could very well have been severely injured from the 50 foot downfall. Repercussions? My prediction: the Muffitt character we saw in Goddesses and Monsters could be foreshadowing about what happens to Willow. Willow may have broken her lower back and is confined to a wheelchair. Any thoughts on this or other observations? I LOVE this theory. ;D The idea of Willow going from almighty Wiccan to just plain broken, useless, is great. (Going from #1 to the broken Doll, if you will.) It would be such an interesting arc for her character. Obviously, Willow would go on the journey of gaining her abilities back, and I'd love to see Amy team up with her. Maybe Amy's influence is what turns her back to a darker path, the one we see in ToYL? So many possibilities for Willow. Her ongoing series is the one I'm looking forward to.
|
|
|
Post by DorothyFan1 on Dec 5, 2010 20:54:25 GMT -5
The comment that Kennedy gives to Willow: "Lie still..." suggests to me Willow could very well have been severely injured from the 50 foot downfall. Repercussions? My prediction: the Muffitt character we saw in Goddesses and Monsters could be foreshadowing about what happens to Willow. Willow may have broken her lower back and is confined to a wheelchair. Any thoughts on this or other observations? I LOVE this theory. ;D The idea of Willow going from almighty Wiccan to just plain broken, useless, is great. (Going from #1 to the broken Doll, if you will.) It would be such an interesting arc for her character. Obviously, Willow would go on the journey of gaining her abilities back, and I'd love to see Amy team up with her. Maybe Amy's influence is what turns her back to a darker path, the one we see in ToYL? So many possibilities for Willow. Her ongoing series is the one I'm looking forward to. Unfortunately there is one problem with the Willow arc. It's already been told. Buffy killed her. If Willow's future is already set...there's no reason to suspect anything that happens between now and the Fray future will be any different. So unless something happens to ensure the future is different for Willow...it's over before it even starts. So I'm not looking forward to this. In fact I think the Buffyverse is finished. By committing the cardinal sin in fiction by telling us what *will* happen makes it less appealing to see what goes on between now and then.
|
|
|
Post by VampSlayer on Dec 5, 2010 21:00:35 GMT -5
I LOVE this theory. ;D The idea of Willow going from almighty Wiccan to just plain broken, useless, is great. (Going from #1 to the broken Doll, if you will.) It would be such an interesting arc for her character. Obviously, Willow would go on the journey of gaining her abilities back, and I'd love to see Amy team up with her. Maybe Amy's influence is what turns her back to a darker path, the one we see in ToYL? So many possibilities for Willow. Her ongoing series is the one I'm looking forward to. Unfortunately there is one problem with the Willow arc. It's already been told. Buffy killed her. If Willow's future is already set...there's no reason to suspect anything that happens between now and the Fray future will be any different. So unless something happens to ensure the future is different for Willow...it's over before it even starts. So I'm not looking forward to this. In fact I think the Buffyverse is finished. By committing the cardinal sin in fiction by telling us what *will* happen makes it less appealing to see what goes on between now and then. Well, I don't think the future is ever set in stone. But I'd love for the one we've seen to come true. And there's 200 years worth of Willow stories to tell, so i think there's definitely some worth reading. We've no idea how Willow ended up how she did, how is there no story?
|
|
richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
|
Post by richie on Dec 5, 2010 21:10:56 GMT -5
Neil -> what? giles's neck breaking was the most poetical death he could ever have.... just like angelus killing ms calendar.... POETIC.... about angel... well i think, and when season 8 ends and i buy all the TPB a reread all over again, i think i'll have a more clear picture, but for now my thoughts... angel was always on the side of sacriface anybody for the greater good... see that he was willing to kill cordelia to prevent the jasmine thing.... he let fred die... he killed the well's keeper(dont remenber his name) so.... i think that in his mind... he would be on the higher plane WITH buffy, cause that was what it takes, and they both would create a new world... mening if they can create a new world, he could create one where HIS SON wouldn`t have gone to a HELL DIMENSION, or Frakked his almost girlfriend(cordelia) or had sent him to 3 months underwater vacation.... he propably wouldnt sacriface anyone cause he would save them in his "new world"... but he failed... he again killed someone buffy cared about... and now, maybe(and i think it will be), buffy will never forgive him.... i hate the wellchair plot, so i hope willow doesnt go there.... but a Willow whose most fear its to be left behind.... whose transcendend to be a goddesses bacome a normal human that cant even walk? and better with hate on buffy cause she cause it her to be like that? i can see a season where willow will have a good story.... dawn? who? now that buffy "saved" the world se can go to her collage.... XANDER.... i always wanted to know whose side he would chose if he have to. buffy's or willow's.... i think spikes should go to angel... i loved his chemestry with everybory there..... but i think buffy will need him more.... i think buffy betreyed herself.... the maximum betreyal... and now she have to face her consequenceses.... i dont know if i can handle giles death.... i think that it will depends on how season 9 go to see if i will consider season8/9 canon... i liked how season 7 ends... and this season is cool... but if it was on tv... things would be COMPLETLY different... so.... thats my thougts... for now...
|
|
|
Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Dec 5, 2010 21:12:23 GMT -5
So, what did the vampires being famous and everyone thinking Slayers were terrorists and people having Twiight's mark have anything to do with anything?
|
|
|
Post by VampSlayer on Dec 5, 2010 21:18:48 GMT -5
So, what did the vampires being famous and everyone thinking Slayers were terrorists and people having Twiight's mark have anything to do with anything? I'm hoping this'll be the main plot in Season 9.
|
|