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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 8, 2010 11:36:03 GMT -5
Not sure, actually. I know we had a long discussion about the ethics of "sacrifice a few for the good of many," but I can't remember if we had previously disagreed about anything else. I think just about everyone disagreed with me on that. (And it turned out to be "sacrifice a few now so you can sacrifice the rest later," so I feel pretty good about it.)
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cutiepatootie
Common Vampire
lay waste to the world, and everything in it[Mo0:0]
Posts: 87
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Post by cutiepatootie on Dec 8, 2010 13:16:02 GMT -5
Kudos to Micheal Large for his letter.
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Dec 8, 2010 16:04:10 GMT -5
ok, i'm watching "killed by death in season 2. outside buffy's room, xander say's to angelus "you're going to die. i'm going to be there." i know that angel's going to get his own dark horse title, but does it mean he can't die?
i get this feeling that buffy will slay angel, finally. maybe it's what i want. who knows. but is it possible that angel's new series can be stories of his past, his good deeds before he stumbled into buffy's life.
again, i suppose this is what i hope for.
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Whedon Fan on Dec 8, 2010 16:33:44 GMT -5
I have always been a BANGEL fan. . but I don't think they could ever be together after this. Too much has happened now. Killing Giles put everything over the line. To me they are the "what if" couple now. . what if he never had the curse, what if he could go out into the day, what if he was never a vampire and could love her like she wants and what if he never killed her watcher/father figure?? I want Xander to smack him across the face. Beat him to the floor. Angel will of course let him cos of the whole "its what I deserve" repent thing. Willow "If I had my power I'd do . . (insert bad thing here) . . and for Buffy to get up look him in the eye and tell him to leave and keep out of contact with her and her friends. Stay away because your not safe/welcome here any longer. Obvioulsy she can't kill him, for the same reasons she will never kill Spike. . Angel leaves and goes back to a Angel S1 type show???
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 8, 2010 16:40:09 GMT -5
Angel will now try to kill himself, Faith will stop him, and season 9 will have Angel and Faith as a team.
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
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Post by Whedon Fan on Dec 8, 2010 16:45:07 GMT -5
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 8, 2010 16:58:15 GMT -5
Hmmm. It won't happen cos its a comic and its the last issue and it only has so many pages to wrap up a 40 issue book But it's one of the most important issues in the story right now... what will Angel do now that he's fully in control of himself and realizes what he's done? It may go through his mind that redemption is now out of reach, and the best thing he can do is to remove himself as a threat to the world. He knows he and Buffy are through, and there's nothing he can ever do to fix it. But Faith was probably closer to Giles than anyone this season, so for her to forgive him and try to help him would be enough to make him want to survive, and take the loss of Buffy as part of his atonement. This could be handled in only 3 or 4 pages. It could even be done without any dialogue. This would be a good way to set up Angel's and Faith's arc in season 9. But this is me speculating on a Joss story, so it won't happen that way.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Dec 8, 2010 21:02:17 GMT -5
I actually would prefer if Angel was slain by Buffy. (This is actually what I thought was going to happen at the end of the issue). Buffy, before it was decided on a series for Angel, was ACTUALLY supposed to kill Angel and he was supposed to stay dead after Buffy Season 2. So it would have been what Joss had in mind originally with the character. I think it woulda been kinda cool.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 8, 2010 23:41:49 GMT -5
I actually would prefer if Angel was slain by Buffy. (This is actually what I thought was going to happen at the end of the issue). Buffy, before it was decided on a series for Angel, was ACTUALLY supposed to kill Angel and he was supposed to stay dead after Buffy Season 2. So it would have been what Joss had in mind originally with the character. I think it woulda been kinda cool. Eh. Angel had his own show for five years and his own comic for #39 issues. For him to be killed off so unheroically on Buffy would be such a disservice to a rich, layered character.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Dec 9, 2010 2:03:16 GMT -5
I actually would prefer if Angel was slain by Buffy. (This is actually what I thought was going to happen at the end of the issue). Buffy, before it was decided on a series for Angel, was ACTUALLY supposed to kill Angel and he was supposed to stay dead after Buffy Season 2. So it would have been what Joss had in mind originally with the character. I think it woulda been kinda cool. Eh. Angel had his own show for five years and his own comic for #39 issues. For him to be killed off so unheroically on Buffy would be such a disservice to a rich, layered character. Who said it couldn't be done well? When looking at the banner for the site, the final issue's cover by Jo Chen, does anyone else feel Buffy's pain ten times more now because they know she is (mostly) upset about Giles?
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alex_krycek
Rogue Demon Hunter
keeper of the x-files
sorry, i just remembered seeing king ralph[Mo0:30]
Posts: 484
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Post by alex_krycek on Dec 9, 2010 3:58:09 GMT -5
^ i hear ya, knowing the cause of buffy's sadness makes the banner/cover art all the more powerful.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 9, 2010 8:27:32 GMT -5
Who said it couldn't be done well? Me, just then. "Eh. Angel had his own show for five years and his own comic for #39 issues. For him to be killed off so unheroically on Buffy would be such a disservice to a rich, layered character." Considering what was going on--everything from the Twilight arc- to Last Gleaming--it would be a huge disservice to a series header like Angel to be killed as a villain after forgetting about his son, doing whatever Buffy says, and then getting possessed.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Dec 9, 2010 9:04:04 GMT -5
Who said it couldn't be done well? Me, just then. "Eh. Angel had his own show for five years and his own comic for #39 issues. For him to be killed off so unheroically on Buffy would be such a disservice to a rich, layered character." Considering what was going on--everything from the Twilight arc- to Last Gleaming--it would be a huge disservice to a series header like Angel to be killed as a villain after forgetting about his son, doing whatever Buffy says, and then getting possessed. I never said it had to happen this issue...or even this year...or even next year. I'm just saying that's where I thought it was going when Buffy said "that's it...I'm ending this."...and wouldn't mind it, surprisingly. Which led me into thinking if it WOULD happen....anytime...wouldn't mind. Maybe it can happen in 20 years. Who knows? Hence, different circumstances...not being done this way and therefore being done well etc.
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Dec 9, 2010 11:03:17 GMT -5
giles said in this issue that buffy wouldnt kill angel.. she would try to stop him.... so i cant see buffy killing him... not even after 50 years.... i think angel season 1 its what will happen to angel.... on his own comic book hes gonna try to do the best he can... without being used.... i think angel and faith will be together now.... cause buffy will send angel home... and faith will help him.... and spike(i dont know if he will get his own book on the idw or whatever) will be with buffy.... willow will get her own comic book along with xander and kennedy.... but i dont have the slighest ideia what season 9 will be about... if it gonna have a big bad... or just "monster of the issue"
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 11:11:09 GMT -5
No clue what happens in S9 - but they sure have a lot of unanswered questions. Like what was it that Whistler was implying about the timelines slipping and the war that would have been lost together if Angel did not do what he did ? I am still convinced that Whistler is a good guy and that he was telling the truth - and I have my reasons. Actually Angel having his own big story and his own crew again is kind of exciting - I don't mind Faith in his story either, since it is still going to be about his character and centered on him - it will create all the additional tension with Buffy ( historically ) insanely jealous of Faith. I doubt they would let Faith go from the main Buffy title though - Buffy is going to be estranged from her Slayer army and it felt as if Faith was going to take her place for a while.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 11:12:40 GMT -5
Scott said season 9 will be about dealing with the consequences of breaking the Seed and banishing magic.
You'd think that means finding a way to bring magic back, but it's not clear how doing that now would square with the Fray future.
Maybe different timelines will come into play after all.
ETA: I think Whistler is a friendly guy, but not really a "good" guy. He's a balance demon, and balance means you serve good or evil as you must in order to bring things into balance. I think his actions with Angel this season were in the service of evil, because Buffy had tipped the scales too far toward good.
ETA Again: Angel is now at the lowest point we've ever seen him since regaining his soul... including his rat-eating days. He's going to have to make a long, long journey up from that before I'll buy him putting a crew together and going about his business again.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 11:20:40 GMT -5
I don't believe they will reverse the banishment of magic - Joss wants to connect to the Fray comic and it looks like we are 'almost' there. What remains to be seen is how the earthly demons are going to be disposed of - if at all. The already called Slayers will die from natural process of aging and other natural causes over the next 70 years. Joss can take gradual approach and imply that 39 was the battle of Starbucks and that Willow cooked the books later on so that actual opening of the portal and banishing the demons won't be needed - or the source of magic - small one can be brought in. Or the PtBs can step in - although I suspect they are severed from Earth now same way that Saga and the Hell denizens are. It would be interesting to ask if vampires can still procreate in this new environment - ie turn others ?
Astral lion thingy was not of this realm - not connected to our own local PTB's in any way. Thus it got banished when the Seed was broken. Whistler, on other hand, was here all since S1 and is of local demonkind, serving local powers. Balance or not, our local PTB's would not go for destroying the world they are watching over - and Twilight was all about total consumption and replacement.
He was not planning on destroying the world or on killing Giles. In fact, he meant to save the world. It does not excuse him - but on other hand I am wondering if indeed Whistler was correct and the only way to avoid annihilation of the planet was to break the Seed, and the only one who could do it was Buffy and the only way to force her to do it was by instrumenting the final events of 39... Ack. I suspect that this is exactly what they did this season.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 11:45:41 GMT -5
I don't believe they will reverse the banishment of magic - Joss wants to connect to the Fray comic and it looks like we are 'almost' there. But Scott has told us that the future we've seen in Fray and ToYL is not immutable. He's also said they don't intend to retcon that story out of existence by changing the timeline. The only way to change that future for Willow without changing it for Fray would be separate timelines. I just don't think the Buffyverse works without magic. It's part and parcel of the setting, and they're going to have to find some way to get it back in some form. I've said before that looking for native magic from this world (which is what Wiccans are supposed to do anyway) might be the answer. If the future is taken to be immutable, then we're left with Willow knowing that, although she has an unpleasant future and end ahead of her, she is completely indestructible for the next 200 years, no matter what. What remains to be seen is how the earthly demons are going to be disposed of - if at all. The already called Slayers will die from natural process of aging and other natural causes over the next 70 years. Joss can take gradual approach and imply that 39 was the battle of Starbucks and that Willow cooked the books later on so that actual opening of the portal and banishing the demons won't be needed - or the source of magic - small one can be brought in. Or the PtBs can step in - although I suspect they are severed from Earth now same way that Saga and the Hell denizens are. It would be interesting to ask if vampires can still procreate in this new environment - ie turn others ? I still maintain that vampire siring requires the arrival of a demonic spirit from outside, and therefore can't happen. Aluwyn wasn't totally clear on the point... she said vampires would remain, but didn't specify whether they'd still be able to sire. But "Fray" tells us that vampires died out after the "Battle of Starbucks," which is why no new Slayers are called. So I think it's pretty clear they can't sire, and that the remaining Slayers will eventually cull the remaining vamps and demons. Astral lion thingy was not of this realm - not connected to our own local PTB's in any way. Thus it got banished when the Seed was broken. Whistler, on other hand, was here all since S1 and is of local demonkind, serving local powers. Balance or not, our local PTB's would not go for destroying the world they are watching over - and Twilight was all about total consumption and replacement. I don't think Whistler was serving Twilight, but he was pretty clear that Buffy and the Slayers had to be smacked down, and that he didn't really care much about that... he was pretty dismissive of Buffy and of Angel's love for her, despite knowing from his own experience that she fights for good. I don't believe Whistler has any particular fondness for good people as opposed to evil ones. They're all just weights on a scale that has to be kept in balance.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2010 12:04:09 GMT -5
But "Fray" tells us that vampires died out after the "Battle of Starbucks," which is why no new Slayers are called. So I think it's pretty clear they can't sire, and that the remaining Slayers will eventually cull the remaining vamps and demons. Erm... Harth was sired...
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 145
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 12:11:36 GMT -5
But Scott has told us that the future we've seen in Fray and ToYL is not immutable. He's also said they don't intend to retcon that story out of existence by changing the timeline. The only way to change that future for Willow without changing it for Fray would be separate timelines. It WAS not immutable. In fact, that was the whole point of Whistler's message - look up the Riley's one shot again. I believe that Fray-future was in danger of not happening until issue 39. After that - it is set. I am fine with the world resting from magic for 200 years - and then the Seed healing itself gradually. Yup. The question is though - how to look at this situation and how to consider what FDW does in the end - as a greatest personal sacrifice yet that makes the world live on, or as a descent into madness ending with vengeful self-destruct. Here I tend to agree with you. But they probably will fanwank this. As they fanwanked the ensouled vampires keeping their souls. Keeping the balance is not quite the same as getting your own world annihilated via your own efforts. Just think about it - Whistler is a local demon - Twilight wins - Whistler goes puff together with all our world, evil , good , etc. And our local PTB's lose their world. Giles brought the local demons as a 'cavalry' exactly because of that clause. Whistler has no logical reasons for wanting this world to end therefore he has no logical reasons to make Angel go smack Buffy just to keep the balance. Therefore - assuming Whistler told the truth - and I have had confirmations from a reliable source that he was providing a reliable info - the plot of S8 is not as simple as 'Angel gets duped into almost destroying the world.'
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