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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2010 13:03:10 GMT -5
Again, I'll point out that vampires can still sire in the future. Harth Fray is one such example, since he was sired by Icarus. As for the arrival of the demon, I'd disagree that it requires an external force, as one of the criteria for siring is to drink the blood of the sire. In essence, the victim is taking in a part of the sire. Blood is energy, power, whatever it was that Spike said it was. It's always blood. We've seen that blood is a conduit for energy (i.e. the Key), and so in this case, it's probably the vessel for demonic asexual reproduction in a sense.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 13:15:30 GMT -5
Again, I'll point out that vampires can still sire in the future. Harth Fray is one such example, since he was sired by Icarus. As for the arrival of the demon, I'd disagree that it requires an external force, as one of the criteria for siring is to drink the blood of the sire. In essence, the victim is taking in a part of the sire. Blood is energy, power, whatever it was that Spike said it was. It's always blood. We've seen that blood is a conduit for energy (i.e. the Key), and so in this case, it's probably the vessel for demonic asexual reproduction in a sense. Not that I really want to argue here - but in Fray-future supposedly magic started to leak back somehow - thus there is a possibility to open a portal now and again and send Urkonn through.. And Fray's scythe is operational too - and we were told the Scythe is powered by the Seed directly. I fanwank this a s 'the Seed began to heal' . This way vamps began to be able to sire only recently in Fray future... which actually makes sense in explaining how they became near extinct over the last 200 years. But of course they might come up with something different entirely. Somebody should ask the PTB's about siring soon - but maybe after 40 we will have the answer.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 13:15:34 GMT -5
I am fine with the world resting from magic for 200 years - and then the Seed healing itself gradually. I'm not, really, although I'm open to what Joss has in mind if he opts to go that route. For me, "Buffy" without magic would be like "Star Trek" without space. It would take a pretty gripping story to hold my interest. Yup. The question is though - how to look at this situation and how to consider what FDW does in the end - as a greatest personal sacrifice yet that makes the world live on, or as a descent into madness ending with vengeful self-destruct. I'm not sure how possible it is to write an engaging story about a protagonist who can't ever be in danger... and knows she can't ever be in danger. Here I tend to agree with you. But they probably will fanwank this. As they fanwanked the ensouled vampires keeping their souls. No need to wank it... there will still be enough vamps and demons for the current batch of Slayers to stay occupied with. As I said (if we can trust anything Urkonn told Melaka), vampires and demons disappear until Fray's time. Though Urkonn seemed to have some of his facts wrong (e.g., claiming that all demons were banished at once, and that the Slayers died out due to lack of vampires to fight). Keeping the balance is not quite the same as getting your own world annihilated via your own efforts. Just think about it - Whistler is a local demon - Twilight wins - Whistler goes puff together with all our world, evil , good , etc. And our local PTB's lose their world. Giles brought the local demons as a 'cavalry' exactly because of that clause. Whistler has no logical reasons for wanting this world to end therefore he has no logical reasons to make Angel go smack Buffy just to keep the balance. Therefore - assuming Whistler told the truth - and I have had confirmations from a reliable source that he was providing a reliable info - the plot of S8 is not as simple as 'Angel gets duped into almost destroying the world.' Whistler clearly had very little specific idea what he was talking about... he saw several possible futures, and in the only one where humanity survives, Angel put on the Twilight mask and became Buffy's enemy. But the paradox is, Angel would probably never have put on the mask unless Whistler told him to... so Whistler was kicking off the very Apocalypse he claimed to be trying to defeat. Wouldn't it make more sense for Whistler to say, "Oh, by the way, if you listen to a talking dog and put on a luchador mask, bad things are gonna happen... so don't." So the question is... if Whistler was being honest... what other, even worse Apocalypse did Angel evade by bringing about the Twilight Apocalypse? Again, I'll point out that vampires can still sire in the future. Harth Fray is one such example, since he was sired by Icarus. But that's in the Frayverse future, not in the intervening time. Clearly something happened shortly before the beginning of "Fray" that caused magic (and vampires, and demons, and Slayers) to be allowed back into this world, with their powers intact. If vampires are going to continue to sire after season 8, then the world is in big trouble, because that means vampires are eternal but Slayers are now only temporary. In that scenario, vampires and demons would have overrun the world, Wishverse-style, long before we got to the time of Fray.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Dec 9, 2010 13:29:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure how possible it is to write an engaging story about a protagonist who can't ever be in danger... and knows she can't ever be in danger.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 13:31:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure how possible it is to write an engaging story about a protagonist who can't ever be in danger... and knows she can't ever be in danger. It is not like she is 'never in danger', actually. More like - she needs to figure out eventually what her survival would mean vs her death - if she decides to quit before her time. In a sense this is a time loop paradox... If Willow were to commit suicide right now the whole world might mist out - and not the FF world but current post 39 Buffyverse. Scary. It is up to them to tell us. The point is though, Whistler mentions some war that they ' lose together - how very romantic' - if Angel does not go on with the plan. Once again, only theoretically, it might be that the outer Hell demons would have invaded eventually - the elder demon in issue #10 says 'I welcome the coming war', so, huh? Again, I'll point out that vampires can still sire in the future. Harth Fray is one such example, since he was sired by Icarus. Here I agree - if Slayers cannot be called any more it makes sense to keep vamps from reproducing.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
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Post by iloveromy on Dec 9, 2010 13:37:35 GMT -5
If vampires are going to continue to sire after season 8, then the world is in big trouble, because that means vampires are eternal but Slayers are now only temporary. In that scenario, vampires and demons would have overrun the world, Wishverse-style, long before we got to the time of Fray.
- Even stranger, with the mainstreaming of vamprism into society in Season 8, why are they considered lurks? Apparently their fad runs out and they eventually are looked upon as diseased creatures.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 13:47:11 GMT -5
- Even stranger, with the mainstreaming of vamprism into society in Season 8, why are they considered lurks? Apparently their fad runs out and they eventually are looked upon as diseased creatures. Or the people of Fray's time don't remember vampires from the last time they existed. Something seems to have happened between now and then that cut Frayverse people off from knowledge of the past. The events of season 8 should be a major part of history, immortalized in print and digital form for all time... but Mel has to rely on an obscure library of handwritten books to find out anything at all about our era. It can't be that there was some kind of intervening "Dark Age," because technology has continued to evolve to the point of flying cars and whatnot. This, and the discrepancies in Urkonn's account of the "Battle of Starbucks," strike me as evidence (not proof) of diverging timelines. Anybody notice that the spell that sent Buffy to Fray's time in ToYL was the same one that sent her to see the Shadowmen in "Get It Done" -- complete with the demon exchange? Was that literally a time travel spell, or something else?
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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2010 13:49:02 GMT -5
Do we know for sure that Fray's present is not in the same status quo as the world now? There are no demons; they've all been exiled (which is strange, since only the non-earthbound ones were supposed to go poof). There are still vampires. No Slayer was Called until Mel.
As for your anti-vampire propagation argument, that works under the assumption that vampires frequently sire. People are generally regarded as food. Creating more vampires creates competition... ecologically, that's usually not desirable. Therefore, I don't necessarily believe that the vampire population would've exploded, even without an active Slayer.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 14:01:28 GMT -5
As for your anti-vampire propagation argument, that works under the assumption that vampires frequently sire. People are generally regarded as food. Creating more vampires creates competition... ecologically, that's usually not desirable. Therefore, I don't necessarily believe that the vampire population would've exploded, even without an active Slayer. Doug Sanders in "Disharmony" wanted a system by which vampires carefully allocate their kills between siring and eating, to maintain their population. The Master in "The Wish" seemed to have a similar system on a much larger scale, and from a position of rulership rather than stealth. But even a slow population growth of vampires will become overwhelming once the Slayer line dies out altogether. 50 years from now you'd have a vampire population at least the same size as it is now, if not larger, and no Slayers at all to keep them in check.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2010 14:29:26 GMT -5
Yes, and even then, people are still food. Vampires are not going overpopulate the world. Despite Urkonn's belief that they will, but that could either be his pitch, or him speaking with the knowledge that the One Who Will Lead is about to do that by opening up the portals again. The demons that Urkonn report to describe Mel's world as "a world with no magic in it". Exactly when magic started leaking in again is unknown. The fact that Urkonn is walking about Haddyn is proof that the dimensional gates have reopened, since he said himself that he wasn't of our dimension. But I don't think there's any textual evidence that would suggest that vampires couldn't sire before that happened. Vampires were one of the "vestiges" that Aluwyn mentioned, which means that they are magical leftovers. The very fact that animated corpses walk is proof that not all magic went poof.
And it's not like the Slayers really disappeared. According to Urkonn, "the line continued -- there were girls with the power, but they were never Called, never trained." Which could be taken to mean that Potentials still existed, but were never Called.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by iloveromy on Dec 9, 2010 14:43:37 GMT -5
Slayers are not the only ones trained to keep vampires in check. They just get the cool title. ;D
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 15:05:12 GMT -5
And it's not like the Slayers really disappeared. According to Urkonn, "the line continued -- there were girls with the power, but they were never Called, never trained." Which could be taken to mean that Potentials still existed, but were never Called. But they weren't fighting vampires. To me, it just makes much more sense to go with the "vampires can't sire anymore" explanation. It's perfectly plausible, and it's right in line with what we know about the future. Also, if vampires and Slayers get to keep their magical natures, I submit that Willow should too. It was made pretty clear in season 7 that she was no longer just a user of magic, but was magical herself. She may have lost her connection to Aluwyn, but she should still be able to use magic. She should be one of the "vestiges."
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by iloveromy on Dec 9, 2010 15:12:17 GMT -5
I think Willow will be searching for how to get her magic back in season 9.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 15:14:50 GMT -5
Also, if vampires and Slayers get to keep their magical natures, I submit that Willow should too. It was made pretty clear in season 7 that she was no longer just a user of magic, but was magical herself. She may have lost her connection to Aluwyn, but she should still be able to use magic. She should be one of the "vestiges." That would be rather cool - and resolve the issue of where from her little amount of magic comes from in TOYL. If she absorbed enough of it during S6-S8 she might eventually find a way to tap into herself. Besides, I am rather curious now about FDW comment of 'not being human - not for a while now'.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2010 16:54:10 GMT -5
And it's not like the Slayers really disappeared. According to Urkonn, "the line continued -- there were girls with the power, but they were never Called, never trained." Which could be taken to mean that Potentials still existed, but were never Called. But they weren't fighting vampires. To me, it just makes much more sense to go with the "vampires can't sire anymore" explanation. It's perfectly plausible, and it's right in line with what we know about the future. No, they weren't fighting vampires. But I don't think the bit about vampires not being able to sire anymore is the answer to that problem. Since we have no idea what the vampire population is in the future (the human population is apparently at 10 billion), and how much interaction those two groups have (it seems that vampires are living in slums and ghettos, and probably only in contact with the lower classes... social commentary much?). And I maintain that the siring of a new vampire doesn't require the entry of an external demon as you contend, mainly because the victim has to ingest a part of the sire, therefore making it more likely that the victim then takes a part of the sire. This would be supported by the notion that vampires tend to be connected to their sire in one way or another. In other vampire literature, there's the whole bloodline issue (basically, my sire is more badass than your sire). Joss didn't exactly start from scratch with his mythology. Hell, even the Twilight vampires are more original than Joss' (I said "original," not "better," so untwist your thong). Joss' mythology is highly derivative; world building isn't exactly his main concern, or to be honest, his forte. Also, if vampires and Slayers get to keep their magical natures, I submit that Willow should too. It was made pretty clear in season 7 that she was no longer just a user of magic, but was magical herself. She may have lost her connection to Aluwyn, but she should still be able to use magic. She should be one of the "vestiges." I agree that Willow is a vestige. In fact, you could go one step further, and perhaps argue that Willow isn't just magical at this point, she may be a demi-goddess of sorts. Would explain the immortality. Willow's status on the mortal coil has been called into question, perhaps subtly, a few times now in S8. Even from the very first arc. She may be able to still use magic, but her resources have been severely diminished. And perhaps because she's been so reliant on a massive amount of magic at her disposal, Willow doesn't realize that she's still able to tap into the limited magic of the Earth itself.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 17:11:06 GMT -5
The "death of magic" might be pretty overrated here. Seems like most of the magic we've seen during the series consisted of these "vestiges." The only change seems to be no more dimension-hopping, and no more throwing fireballs and lightning storms around like a World of Warcraft raid.
I'd really like to ask Scott about the status of vampires.
It might have been interesting if Joss had embraced this magic-death notion less half-assedly (full-assedly?) and just ruled that all magic goes away, period. Vampires dust, demons die, Slayers are depowered, Dawn vanishes, etc. Of course that would have also cost us Angel and Spike... but not necessarily. You could imagine that, having souls, those two would simply become human when magic ended. They'd both Shanshu.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 9, 2010 17:14:21 GMT -5
And the story would kinda end there, no? Coz, no more Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffy Summers, waitress extraordinaire doesn't seem to have the same ring. Personally, I'm all for complicated mythology. Life's complicated, let the mythology reflect that. No simple good vs. evil. It's one of the reasons why shows like Spartacus: Blood and Sand, and The Sopranos, and The Tudors, and Rome (though, I've never watched the HBO shows, just heard of them) are such favorites. It's all about agendas, and power, and what we're willing to do... We've been inching our way in that direction for a while now, so if we go there, I'm in.
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Dorotea
Potential Slayer
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Post by Dorotea on Dec 9, 2010 17:18:13 GMT -5
The "death of magic" might be pretty overrated here. Seems like most of the magic we've seen during the series consisted of these "vestiges." The only change seems to be no more dimension-hopping, and no more throwing fireballs and lightning storms around like a World of Warcraft raid. I'd really like to ask Scott about the status of vampires. Seems like a proper thing to ask. Then where would be the drama, the angst? And what would the S9 be all about ? Chuckle. At this point I feel that many things in the comic happen because it has to maintain the suspense. At least they plan to wrap the S9 in two years - but I heard some noises of S10 being made...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 17:24:36 GMT -5
Buffy Summers, waitress extraordinaire doesn't seem to have the same ring. She wielded a pretty mean hunga-munga, though. Another minor point: when Aluwyn was talking up the end of magic to Willow, she said "the witches" would lose everything... not "you witches" or "you and the other witches." Could be she's more than a witch now. I've never been an advocate of the "Willow is a goddess" position... I don't see her with that level of power, even in season 8, and even with the relatively low bar on "god" status in the Buffyverse. (I mean, Olaf was a god? Olaf?) And I don't see why or how she would have become one... what makes her better than all the other women who studied magic real hard? She's only been using magic for six seasons... she wouldn't even be through Hogwarts yet for another year. And I hope something happens to pre-empt Willow's apparent fate in ToYL. Not just because I don't want to see such a sad end for Willow, but because I don't like knowing what's going to happen to characters before they happen. To me, it detracts from the story.
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richie
Potential Slayer
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Post by richie on Dec 9, 2010 17:36:53 GMT -5
but harth was sired after the new slayer was born... i think that after centuries demons got back... so the slayers... meaning that what andrew crossett can be right....
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